Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@Jane
Why didn’t the EU act in unison? It is the largest trade ‘nation’ in the world and could held out . I don’t think any one person understood the full implications, just like Congress agreed without fully reading and understanding the bill they were signing. Or maybe if they did understand, they just thought US expats were expendable.
The email I received from the US ambassador in Bern said ” unfortunately it’s folks like you who are collateral damage “, using the typical US military language.
@AD203
“I don’t exactly know what happened to me along the way, but somehow I woke up and “smelled the coffee” and wanted to get out.”
Yes, awakening. I didn’t do it with first hand experiences like you but the combination of finally getting a computer connected to the internet and my own innate curiosity did the trick. I have been poking around in places which truly astonish me for over a decade now. Truth, I’ve found, is a slippery little beast though. Sometimes you think you’ve got a firm grip and then a different light shines on it and you find yourself releasing that “truth” and searching again. But I keep on keeping on and find myself looking particularly for hopeful things that any writer or youtube poster might have left to be discovered. The most hopeful thing I’ve found at this site is the charter trial. Never having thought of Canadians (myself included) as being challengers it gives me a sense of pride that this legal action is happening right here in my home country. Win, lose or draw I’m going to always be proud that we are trying to land the first kick at the US FATCA can.
Questions for anyone who has relinquished U.S. citizenship.
1) Did you have to fill out form DS-4080 which essentially indicates that you are renouncing even though you relinquished?
2) If I formally relinquish now, but my expatriating act occurred in 1998 (before 2004), will I be expected to bring proof that I didn’t meet the requirements for tax avoidance? If so, what type of proof is expected?
3) I assume that I would need proof of my government employment in order to relinquish. Is there anything I need other than a letter from my employer? Does the letter need to be notarized?
Thanks so much in advance.
@anonForSafety
1) not sure about the 4080 form, but you will need to sign the 4081 – Statement of Understanding.
https://eforms.state.gov/editdocument.aspx?documentid=55
2) no need for any tax stuff – the consulate/embassy are not allowed to have anything to do with the tax side of your situation. They may say that you could have outstanding tax obligations to the US which you need to deal with, but that’s all. And in your case irrelevant.
3) Employment contract if you have one would be better or employment records.
I recall a link of country-specific stories of renouncing– where is it?
Cheers
Jane,
It may be this link you need, http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/consulate2/,
Thanks, but no.
This is a page of renunciations by country.
Not a forum.
I don’t know, Jane. Perhaps someone else, like Pacifica, may be able to direct you somewhere else.
It’s weird, as I was sent there before?
I want to post my experience & now cannot find it?
Hi Jane,
I think that you are looking for the consulate report which is located in the link that Calgary411 just sent you. Click on the blue link above that is titled, “Consulate Report Directory” and that will take you to a pdf which lists all of the different peoples consulate experiences.
Cheers,
Rocky
@Jane, this is what you want I think. Here’s where people post their experiences when renouncing/relinquishing. Pacifica777 will then transfer that info into the PDF under the approrpiate country. You can’t do this yourself.
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/consulate2/
Otherwise I don’t know what it could be.
I want to leave my history at receiving my CLN in as many places as possible. What I’ve asked has not been shown to me- which is strange & very bad- as I first found IBS via this link?
Why am I not able to see the thread now?
Jane
@Jane – is this the thread you’re thinking of?
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/fatca-and-australia/
Iota has just placed a comment at http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/consulate2/comment-page-46/#comment-7295326. That comment will eventually be incorporated into the Consulate Report Directory with a link in that actual post.
I’m sorry, but my mind is a blank regarding any other post you may be referring to. Have you looked at the pages of that Consulate Report Directory to see if that compilation of reports looks familiar to what you are thinking of?
I guess I’m recalling it wrong…I’ll just go through http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/consulate2/
Thanks all.
🙂
Do any somewhat recent reqlinquishers visit these forums any more?
I am planning on requesting an appointment at a consulate to get formal recognition that I relinquished my citizenship years ago and to obtain a back dated CLN. However, their instructions indicate that I must fill out all the forms and form DS4080 is a form to renounce on which I must essentially claim to be a national of the U.S.
I certainly do not want to sign or even fill out this form and am wondering what others have done?
Here is a link to the form:
Form DS4080: https://eforms.state.gov/editdocument.aspx?documentid=261&from=2&categoryid=1&form_format=3&Width=1270
anonForSafety –
My understanding is that DS4080 is not required for relinquishment/back-dated CLN. You don’t need to fill it out just because they sent it to you. You might, however, want to clarify with them that you are applying for recognition of a prior relinquishment rather than renunciation — in case they sent you the wrong set of forms.
@Karen
Thanks for your reply. It’s much appreciated. I believe I got an automated email for which it would make sense that they would send forms for both cases but of course, the email is worded as though you have to fill out all forms. It’s almost as if all branches of the U.S. government intentionally seek to add ambiguity to all processes.
I am having a fight with the State Dept over relinquishment. I was born in the US to Canadian parents who registered me at birth but then naturalized as US citizens, giving up both their and my Canadian citizenship as I was a minor under the 1946 law. I did regain it in 2011 and also picked up my Irish citizenship in 2007 but it took me until 2012 to find work etc to move out of the country. They are now claiming that since I stayed in the US instead of leaving right away, that I wanted to remain a citizen and are refusing a CLN. I filed my IRS paperwork in 2014 and haven’t traveled under US passport, filed taxes etc. I tried to see if I could take a formal oath of citizenship with either Canada or Ireland but both told me they only offer that to new citizens… The State Dept tells me if only I pay them $2500 they would be happy to issue a CLN which I am not inclined to do even if I had that lying around. Anyone else in this situation or have any suggestion.. my inclination is just either send back the passport one more time, let it expire in a couple of months and proceed without a CLN
@Jamie Ross, unfortunately, I think you may required to renounce rather than get a relinquishment. Just because you gained other citizenships doesn’t mean you lost your American one, especially as you were still living/working there. So no, that argument won’t wash – you didn’t lose your American citizenship that way, sorry.
And you do realise that even if you had grounds for a relinquishment it still costs $2,350. The fee was extended to relinquishments last November so whichever way you tried you’d still have to pay the fee.
Sure you can just ditch the passport. So long as you don’t travel to the US – where you will probably get hassled for not travelling with a US passport and may be refused entry – travelling elsewhere shouldn’t be a problem. The main concern is your bank – do they know/suspect you have American citizenship? Because under FATCA rules they must report any accounts held by US citizens. If you can’t produce a CLN to show you’ve given up your citizenship then they could close/freeze your account/s as you would be deemed wilfully non-compliant.
@Ross I am not a lawyer so take this for what it’s worth. By the 1947 Canadian Citizenship Act you did lose your Canadian Citizenship when your father became a naturalized U.S. Citizen and you would then have to reclaim your Canafian citizenship by application to the Government of Canada. Canada giving back your citizenship would not be automatic. This could therefore be an act of naturalization under U.S. Law…becoming a citizen of a foreign nation after birth.
If you did not reclaim your citizenship by 2009 when the new Canadian citizenship act came into effect (Bill C-37) then your Canadian citizenship was automatically reinstated and reclaiming your citizenship might not be considered an act of expatriation.
For an act of naturalization to also be an act of expatriation you must have performed it voluntarily and with the intent to lose your U.S. Citizenship.
If you reclaimed your Canaduan citizenship and continued to live in the U.S. without getting a green card, visa etc then I think it will be hard to prove that it was your intent when you became Canadian to also lose your citizenship.
anonForSafety,
Page 7 of the Consulate Directory Report (linked here: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/consulate2/) gives the forms required for both Renunciations and Relinquishments. It is a great resource for anyone looking into expatriation from US citizenship, including acounts of experiences by country shared there by other renouncers / relinquishers.
@Jamie Ross, you are in luck as there is a 7 FAM Series that confirms registration is a relinquishing act.
We assume you did this in the USA? I refer you to 8 US Code 1483
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1483
“(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (6) and (7) of section 1481(a) of this title, no national of the United States can lose United States nationality under this chapter while within the United States or any of its outlying possessions, but loss of nationality shall result from the performance within the United States or any of its outlying possessions of any of the acts or the fulfillment of any of the conditions specified in this Part if and when the national thereafter takes up a residence outside the United States and its outlying possessions.”
Note, I have personal knowlege of persons who registered as Irish while in the USA and had it treated as a relinquishing act but only in accordance with the law AFTER they obtained “residence outside the United States.’
The parties in question had the problem of proving to state that they had in fact established residence outside the United States and it was not a temporary thing!!!
One of the 7 FAM series also talks about this.
so you voluntarily and intended to relinquish by registering but fully understood it could not take effect until you obtained residence outside the USA.
Note that Section 1483 a has no time limit, UNLIKE 1483 b which does have a time limit!!!
Subsection b with a time limit supports that subsection a has no time limit. Any other reading is ultra vires.
You are going to need to explain this to state and defend your position in particular that you are resident overseas.
This is a very RARE relinquishment so having problems is expected.
@Cheryl; “If you reclaimed your Canaduan citizenship and continued to live in the U.S. without getting a green card, visa etc then I think it will be hard to prove that it was your intent when you became Canadian to also lose your citizenship.”
What you said makes sense BUT Congress covered that. 🙂
This is a rare situation but its in the law.
Excellent find again George.