Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@George, Nice find… I think that addresses the case (hopefully) that I am in. Its worth a try though because it says if you gain naturalization in another country.. the loss of nationality doesn’t take place until you take up residence outside the US..
I’ll let you know how it goes. Since I notified the State Dept and IRS of my relinquishment back in 2014 I am keeping this going as it was before the new fees. I refuse to pay illegal fees for the State Dept bake sale for jihadi’s and nazi’s
@Jamie Ross You might consider getting an opinion from the CIC regarding your citizenship issues while you continue your work with the DOS. It sounds promising. Good luck.
@ anonForSafety
I applied for recognition of my relinquishment and a backdated CLN in October 2015. A completed form 4080 was required. However, I crossed out the word “renunciation” every time it appeared and ensured that I used the word “relinquishment” consistently. They don’t want to talk to you unless that form is completed.
@Cheryl, I talked with the Canadian consular officials in Dublin who conferred with the CIC.. they all felt my Canadian citizenship card should be sufficient proof and weren’t terribly impressed with the DOS stance 🙂
SEE, are you referring to the 4081?
4080 is the Oath of Renunciation. This is only required for renunciations.
4081 is the Statement of Understanding of Consequences. This is required for both renunciations and relinquishments. It contains a list with 12 points of understanding, most of which contain the wording “renounce/relinquish” or “my renunciation/relinquishment.” Eg, I understand that: (1) I have the right to renounce/relinquish my United States nationality.”
7 FAM 1220 p. 36-7
@AnonforSafety,
I wouldn’t worry that they sent you a 4080. In Canada, they’re sending everybody the same automated-reply package. I just didn’t fill it out. Having relinquished already, you don’t have a US citizenship to renounce.
When you send them your completed 4079, it will be clear you are going for a relinquishment-based CLN and of course mention that right off in your cover e-mail.
If you feel more comfortable crossing out the word “renounce” where it says “renounce/relinquish” on the 4081,you can do that. Some have, some haven’t — so far no problems reported either way.
@Jamie, you are going to have show in well written form that was your plan and intent which it sounds like.
THEN you need to go above and beyond that you became a bona fide resident outside the USA.
In your written explanation you may wish to state that the statute is clear that there is no timeline in section A while section b does have a timeline. IF Congress had intended a timeline for what you did, they would have written it into section a like they did section b.
Again, State will need to be shown the law as written and how you followed it.
Since you registered for both Irish and Canadian it MAY be the path of least resistance of showing the option where you left the fastest.
I am assuming you became Irish because of a grandfather NOT by a parent? Through a grandparent is an act of registration but by your parent is less so.
Hi Brock Society,
I have been on again and off again while going through getting rid of my Americanness… I did my renunciation in March of last year (just realised it is one year anniversary today!!) , and I submitted under the streamlined process in February. This included an application for an ITIN.
This is all in spite of the IRS man at the American Embassy in London advising me not to do anything. But I wanted to be safer than sorry.
So I heard back today about my full filing. All it was, was a bulk standard letter saying that I should apply for an SSN not an ITIN. I am not sure on what basis they assessed this… as far as I knew I was not eligible for an SSN as I have renounced and have no work in the USA… and surely I should be eligible for an ITIN anyway. I understand that it can take years to get an SSN.
Does anyone know of a precedent for this? I am not sure what to do. Not sure what happened to all the other documents that I submitted, including the copy of my passport that I had to pay the $50 for. Are they likely to be chasing me now that they have some paperwork for me but not tax identification number? I am very much thinking to draw the line here. I have paid them so much already, and tried to jump through every hoop they throw in front of me…
Thanks,
Chris
This seems to suggest that I couldn’t get an SSN:
https://www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10096.pdf
@Chris
Just like with the CLNs, the time it takes to get an SSN seems to vary. For example, some people have to wait over a year for their CLN, whereas mine arrived within six weeks.
You’ve put so much effort into making a clean break, that I think it’s worth going the extra mile.
A friend of mine was in the same position as you. Although she as well as her accountant tried to question the IRS about the necessity, she ended up having to get an SSN despite having filed with an ITIN. In her case, she ending up driving across the border to to apply for a SSN and she got it within a couple of months.
Since you’re on a different continent, you don’t have to go to the States to apply for a SSN; instead, you can apply at your local consulate. Unless they’ve changed their policy, there’s no cost.
https://uk.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/federal-benefits/social-security-numbers-ssn/
@Chris
You have nothing to lose, so I’d recommend you just fill out the form and apply. Best-case scenario, they issue a SSN. Worst-case scenario, they turn you down and you have something to show the IRS.
Win/win.
Hi,
Thanks for the thought @WestCoaster, so had your friend already renounced too? Because all I have read leads me to believe I am not eligible for an SSN (I am not going there for work or any of their other listed reasons, and I am not a US Citizen).
I should really be able to get an ITIN though, I have followed the process as it is stated to follow, and still don’t know what will have happened to all my other documentation that I sent in with the streamlined application. I’m not paying for another USA stamped photocopy of my passport…
Thanks,
Chris
@Chris
FWIW, Phil Hodgen says:
See: http://hodgen.com/the-time-gap-between-renunciation-and-cln/
Which is how I understood it.
Did you file a W-7 (I assume that’s what the ($50 copy of the passport is for, but asking anyway)? If so, what passport was used with the filing, your (now invalid) US passport, or the passport of your other citizenship (I assume the latter, but again asking anyway)?
At any rate, you could try calling the international assistance phone number and asking what’s going on. They may not be able to track down info on you without a SSN or ITIN, but at least you could explain your situation to a real person and *possibly* get a useful response.
Note: *not* toll free
See: https://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/U.S.-Citizens-and-Resident-Aliens-Abroad
Calling close to closing time may result in a shorter wait time
@Chris
This was in 2012/2013 when two separate appointments were required to renounce; I guess to give people time to ponder the gravity of what they were contemplating doing. In her case, there were about six or seven months between her first appointment and the second. After she’d gone for the first appointment, she found out about the SSN situation. Since she drive across the border into the US, she had to apply for a US passport. When she got her US passport, she applied for her SSN and it arrived before her second (and final) Loss of Nationality appointment.
Incidentally, she had an ITIN and the IRS still wanted a SSN. Like I said, you don’t have pay to apply for a SSN so you really have nothing to lose. If you do have to pay to have a notarized copy of your US passport made, it’s a minor cost compared to what you’ve already shelled out and you’ll wind up with a piece of paper to satisfy the IRS — one way or another. Either they’ll get the SSN they want, or they get an official document from the USG stating you are not entitled to a SSN, which means they will have to accept a ITIN instead.
In Canada, there’s a furor right now because it’s come to light that the Canadian government started sharing our tax information with IRS last year. Whether or not the UK government has admitted to it, I would imagine they’re doing (or will do) likewise. I would hate for you to run into issues down the line, especially after you’ve been so diligent about everything.
Hi,
@tdott, that’s exactly right, filed a Streamlined offshore with a W-7 and included a US Embassy certified copy of my British passport (no way I would send them an original anything).
Unfortunately I am not considering calling the IRS as an option after my experience with them in the London Embassy. The response you get is only ever as good as the person on the other end. Unfortunately that is usually an undertrained, overworked somebody who just wants to clock out and go home. It’s worse than useless as it is usually misleading.
@WestCoaster, your friends’ situation is a little different to mine, I am not a US citizen, I have fully renounced, I have not had a US Passport since I was a child and the US govt. took that as part of my renunciation. So I am pretty sure by all guidance that I have read that an SSN is a no go for me at this stage…
@Chris
On the SSN application form it states:
“To apply for an original card, you must provide at least two documents to prove age, identity, and U.S.
citizenship or current lawful, work-authorized immigration status. If you are not a U.S. citizen and do not
have DHS work authorization, you must prove that you have a valid non-work reason for requesting a
card. ”
The IRS request qualifies as a valid non-work reason.
I’ve already told you why I think it’d be best for you to apply for a SSN. For me, paying $50 (or whatever it costs to get a notarized copy of your US passport, which you might not even need) is a small price to pay for peace of mind but everyone is different.
@Chris
FWIW, I’ve had good luck in getting answers to my questions when calling the Philadelphia number. And although my questions were likely not as esoteric as yours, I really don’t see how it would hurt to give them a call. Best case scenario you get a response that is 100% useful, worst case scenario you’re no worse off than you are now (not knowing WTF is going on). In either case, the only cost is that of a (possibly inconveniently timed) phone call. So, a potentially high ROI for a relatively small cost.
Chris I agree with drawing a line. you have done all you reasonably can. The letter you got was from a computer. I would reply with a letter stating that as far as you have been told you are no longer eligible for a SSN and that your TIN will have to do. The computer probably thinks you are still American because it”s probably programmed to believe that anyone would consider giving it up. You probably will never hear from them again.
@Chris
The IRS don’t answer letters, (my accountant even told me this). I wrote to them 3 times and all I got was a computer generated reiteration of their original. It wasn’t until I called them in Philadelphia that I got a resolution. If the agent can’t help you ask for a supervisor.
@WestCoaster
Unfortunately that last line on the who can apply for an SSN can pretty much be taken as any tax based transaction or reporting needs an SSN. They simply give no details. But that would imply that ITINs are useless.
At least on the W-7 ITIN application which I followed as part of the streamlined they are a bit more clear:
SSNs. Do not complete Form W-7 if you have a SSN or you are
eligible to get a SSN. You are eligible for a SSN if you are a U.S.
citizen or if you have been admitted by the United States for
permanent residence or U.S. employment.
Not saying you’re wrong @WestCoaster :). Just that I have clearly followed their process as it is stated and as I was told by the IRS in London, and that it has gotten me nowhere.
@Chris- wait and see if you hear anything further, perhaps? It may just be a mistake. It’s their workload, not yours – leave them to sort it out or write a sensible explanatory letter.
Congratulations on not having a SSN. Wish I didn’t have one. Even though I’m renounced, I’ve still got the two indelible US indicia – place of birth and SSN – which I can never get rid of.
My CLN arrived today!! I was so excited to see it there in the mail as I was expecting it to take much longer. I documented my relinquishment on October 15 and received my CLN today on Mar. 24, so just over 5 months later.
Still need to finish up my 8854/1040 stuff, but my hands are just about clean of all this crap.
Congratulations!! What a wonderful surprise. Which Consulate office did you go to? I documented my relinquishment about the same time in Calgary, but haven’t heard anything yet.
@Emty
Congrats, that’s awesome!!!
It was Calgary as well. I had checked the tracking number for my registered envelope just a couple weeks ago and it hadn’t been sent yet, so I was pleasantly surprised to find it in my mail today. The date on the documents inside looks like it was processed on March 3. Hopefully you will received yours soon as well.