(10) Lying to prevent a crime is a virtue.
Commentary: USA citizenship-based taxation is a crime when applied to people living outside the USA jurisdiction. It is theft at multiple levels: (1) It is territorial theft of another country’s tax base. (2) It is theft to tax a person without representation. (3) It is theft to tax a person for the benefit of others. Furthermore, many of the reporting requirements of FATCA and FBAR cause crimes to be committed. The government of Canada, e.g., has committed a crime by sending the bank account information of Canadian residents and ciitzens to the IRS–it is national origin discrimination which is forbidden in the charter of rights, and it is a violation of their right to privacy.
It may be necessary to lie to prevent the IRS and one’s own local government from committing crimes. One may have to lie to a bank about where one was born. One may have to omit details when filling out forms.
While lying to prevent a crime is a virtue, lying to cover up a crime is politics as usual.
Previous Discussion:
Rahab’s renunciation of citizenship–Was she a harlot, liar, traitor and tax cheat or a heroine of faith?
California genocide and the Indian Tax Revolt of 1851
Fair tax, unfair tax: or When is it paying my fair share?
Is it taxation without representation if you can vote? Damn right!
Previous Petros Principles:
(1) What the IRS can’t know unless you tell them can’t hurt you.
(2) Fear makes the IRS more dangerous than it really is.
(3) Haste is the devil.
(4) Those most hurt by the IRS’s persecution of expats have engaged the services of cross-border compliance condors.
(5) Those least hurt have done nothing.
(6) Home is where you live.
(7) An unjust law is no law.
(8) Don’t feed the beast.
(9) Do the minimum in trying to achieve the least bad outcome.
(10) Lying to prevent a crime is a virtue.
(11) Cynical derision of Homelanders is healthy.
About: Petros is the alias of the founding administrator of the Isaac Brock Society. Petros Principles are guidelines that have helped him and others deal with the United States’ world-wide tax invasion.
@Rose – I don’t know if paying in dollar cheques would throw up a red flag, but it’s certainly possible – especially if the name of the bank in question should happen to begin with H or L.
@iota
It could be just checking all customers with bank balances over a certain threshold, or the dollar cheques or the US state. or even all three.
and no it’s not a H or L bank. I actually have another account with another bank and that one has a more thorough profile online and in that profile I am identified as British. and also didn’t hear from that bank. Of course now all my bank accounts have been sent on fbar.
I am renouncing at the London embassy in about two weeks time. I am just relieved that my mother is not around to see this day. Not that I would have told her but for her past life and what she went through as a child in the war, My mother was not American born but was adopted by American relatives after losing her own parents in the war in Europe. It makes it easier to renounce with my mother not being still here.
actually come to think of it, when i was applying for British Citizenship, I remember my mother saying to me, please check that you don’t lose your US citizenship in the process. she was really worried I would inadvertently lose US citizenship. I reassured her that I could be dual. Of course my mother knew nothing about the problems that will come into my life later. and I think before Fatca, the problems were manageable whether you knew or not about CBT and what not.
Polly —
I have met many a lawyer or accountant who have told me that FATCA is a bad law while helping to enforce it.
Them ol’ soul-sold lawyers and accountants, why they gots to eat eat EAT
and meanwhiles keep their ol’ beloved behind undamaged so’s they can sit down again in comfort to eat eat EAT some more
@Rose – good luck with the renunciation. Renouncing wasn’t painful for me, but I know many do find it so. Such a stupid, unnecessary thing for people to be obliged to do – for no benefit to anyone! It’s nuts.
@Animal
Sorry to hear of your wife’s mother and health issues. My mother has Parkinson’s disease, and I must visit her. I do so using my Nexus card, which was much easier to obtain than a Permanent Resident card. Of course I had to state my citizenship, but with Nexus I cross the border weekly as a frequent traveler and have had zero problems. Maybe it would be a way for your wife to see her mother without needing a passport. Best wishes.
BTW, in 38 years of crossing the Can/US border nearly every week, I have never been asked if I am up to date on my US taxes. If ever asked, I can say “as far as US taxes, I’m good” and I will do so without an iota of intimidation or guilt.
I realize that I probably differed than many here, especially about taxes because of what I came from: part of my family is descended from early 17thC Virginians; and one of my grandfathers had served as the Chief Judge of the U.S. Tax Court, so was indoctrinated to be 100% honest, especially about my taxes. It was a matter of family honor.
It was also all the more why I grappled so long with making a decision to renounce. And with Brexit, I’m actually not even sure that I made the right decision to give up my citizenship, as am increasingly dismayed with the U.K. too!
I feel bitter and even a little frightened that I have given up my precious birthright. But five years ago, I felt so pissed off about the whole tax compliance thing. I lost a LOT of money. My dreams of early retirement and escape from my stressful and exhausting job were scuppered. I still feel bitter about it. I have had issues with my spouse , especially because he never repaid a significant sum I’d transferred to him, back when I was fearful the IRS or FINCEN might come after me.
I felt kicked when I was down, but he was, quite understandably, just looking out for himself. Looking back, I feel like I’ve been had, but felt frozen in the headlights because I had always been filing so was already in the system. At least I wasn’t put through OVDI or would have been actually bankrupted.
I’m still not convinced that I will ever be fully clear from the U.S. tax system. I could see a future government being even more punitive and punish me as a form of deserter or traitor. I could see Trump play the demogogue card if he gets in!!
All I can think is that I’ve lost money but life will carry on. I have a work ethic, anyway. My husband worked hard for what he has and I need to do the same.
For BoJo to renounce in protest of US taxes would not have protected him from having to US taxes on the sale of his home and the exit tax. He has now paid for his US citizenship. Most do not throw away something they just paid dearly for.
The only tax reason to renounce now is to prevent from paying furture taxes to the US. Being much wiser now and having paid for his US cituzenship, he may have felt it was less expensive at the time to keep it and why not since he just paid for it
As far as his name not being on the Patriot List. Many posts here have told of many that are known to have renounced but whose names have not appeared on the list. It could be the standard incompetence of those in charge of the list or perhaps, the US would like to meddle in UK politics by keeping this cloud over a prominent politician.
As the IRS, DoS and many other sections of the USG have been proven to be inept at best and corrupt at worst, I would not put any stock in a name not being on the list.
UNLESS, the UK vetting system and media is as corrupt as the US conterpart and one should not put trust in them uncovering that he is still a USC. I put this out there because I believe that that is how the US has become what it is, we self described USCs trusted institutions to follow the law and do ther duty to the public whom they serve. They betrayed that trust. For myself, it was very difficult to come to that conclusion and I have yet to convince more than a couple other USCs to look into it.
Which brings me back to the original topic, lying to legal authority that has by its own corruption lost its moral authority is not unethical. I feel that lying to a corrupt legal authority in any and all mattters, not just those that being truthful about would cause unjust loss, is a duty of a free person in a free society. Any and all peaceful methods to confound a corrupt legal authority in carrying out their corrupt actions must be employed.
“Whatever the reason, I was identified and the letter was more or less asking the question, confirm your resident status for tax, not stating it as a fact that they knew.”
There it is, everyone will have to confirm where they were born despite what the law may say.
For those who may have the freedom of choosing your own bank to receive your pay, may not be such a big issue if you can learn second hand that your bank is doing this and you can close your accounts before asked.
But for those of us who are told be our employers where we must bank, the tsunami roles in.
Mona et al. This guy hid 21 million in Israel for years and didn’t report 2.5 million in interest.
He lives in the US. That ‘s who the IRS are interested in. Not someone who didn’t report the balance on their Oyster card or even on a TFSA
http://federaltaxcrimes.blogspot.ca/2016/08/another-plea-to-offshore-account-tax.html
I do not care who they are interested in, their disire to catch that guy does not give them the right to make my life a living hell.
But, IF they are interested in this guy who lives in the US, why do we who do not live innthe US have anything at all to do with this.
IF people living in the US are the target, why the hell are the aiming at us!?
@JapanT – “For BoJo to renounce in protest of US taxes would not have protected him from having to US taxes on the sale of his home and the exit tax. He has now paid for his US citizenship. Most do not throw away something they just paid dearly for.”
That’s exactly what a great many people have had to do – pay for their US citizenship in order to throw it away. Isn’t that what you yourself aspire to do?
Personally I don’t care if Johnson whether Johnson has renounced or not. If he had carried through on his original indignation and renounced with full Boris Johnson publicity, that would have been interesting, because it would have drawn attention to the obvious insanity of CBT. Johnson renouncing in private, in order to clear the way for taking over as unelected Prime Minister, is a rather different kettle of fish.
@Rose – “Whatever the reason, I was identified and the letter was more or less asking the question, confirm your resident status for tax, not stating it as a fact that they knew.”
Occurs to me – this enigmatic phrasing may be due to the bank using the same form letter for everyone picked up in an Automatic Exchange of Account Information due diligence sweep, whether it’s FATCA or CRS “indicia” that triggers the letter.
“Tax-residence” is basically what they’re looking for, for both FATCA and CRS, so that sentence (“confirm your resident status for tax”) would do for both.
@MoanerLisa1776
So sorry to hear your story and I can fully sympathize. I sometimes feel that it is so unjust that the US government has not taken notice of all the renunciations and tried to find some solutions. Fatca was never even intended for us and actually works when applied to Homelanders. We should only have to report accounts when they are outside our country of residence. I think those that dealt with the issue when being in the tax system and before streamlined had a worst time then those who never filed like myself. I was lucky to find out early this year and be able to use streamlined.
@iota thank you for the good luck wishes on renunciation. I don’t feel sad about it but don’t feel happy either. I am like on auto pilot now, no emotions and like a robot. I don’t know how I will feel on the day. I will have to be brave. Strangely part of my reason for renouncing is based on American values and the Constitution and since those value and the constitution have failed me, I will renounce.
Regarding the Fatca letter, I nearly filled it in as just a resident UK tax payer. It just did not register with me at first that they were looking for US citizens. I thought it was just a questionnaire. I left it lying around for weeks until I noticed that there were big black letters on top of one of the forms that basically said in capital letters “Important this letter requires that you take action please read in full. I thought then i had better read in full and then I found out.
Hmm. Similar to be sure, same…I don’t know. However I can think of no reason why these situations are different. Just a feeling I guess.
I AM an American. Always have been and only American. I must first buy a new nationality before I can throw away my USC.
@JapanT – “IF they are interested in this guy who lives in the US, why do we who do not live innthe US have anything at all to do with this.
IF people living in the US are the target, why the hell are the aiming at us!?”
All US citizens live in the US. It says so in the tax code.
@UK Rose
Just to say that on the renunciation day remember that a piece of paper cannot change who you are, your heritage and your values. You are the same American/Brit you have always been. However much those officials emphasize the loss, no one can take it out of you if you wish it to remain.
Good luck.
“Occurs to me – this enigmatic phrasing may be due to the bank using the same form letter for everyone picked up in an Automatic Exchange of Account Information due diligence sweep, whether it’s FATCA or CRS “indicia” that triggers the letter.
“Tax-residence” is basically what they’re looking for, for both FATCA and CRS, so that sentence (“confirm your resident status for tax”) would do for both.”
Seems to me that regardless of the purpose, the results are the same.
@Rose – “Strangely part of my reason for renouncing is based on American values and the Constitution and since those value and the constitution have failed me, I will renounce.”
You see them as American values – I do not. To me that’s just another packet of American exceptionalism, forever telling the American people that everything good is grown in America. The Scottish Enlightenment probably had more influence on the development of present-day liberal-capitalist values than any other philosophical body of thought. IMO
@Japan T – yes, the effect is the same for a person with a US place of birth on file.
“All US citizens live in the US. It says so in the tax code.”
At what address does it say my foreign born children live? (Not a thrust at you but that 80,000 page body of nonsense called the US tax code)
So basically, everyone born in the US is never completely free of the US, with or without a CLN.
Boris I am sure does what the situation suits him at the time, when it was useful to have the US citizenship, he retained it and when it was not, he shed it (if he has shed it). in a way like all of us are doing or trying to do.
Had I been younger, I would not be shedding my US citizenship just yet. I would take a wait and see approach in case I wanted to take advantage of the job market later on. I would not have to worry so much about the exit tax either. But at my stage of life now it makes sense to shed it.
Fatca was meant to catch tax evaders whether in the USA or abroad. Since I am not a tax evader, I will have to assume that Fatca was not after me and this was confirmed by a tax lawyer that I had look over my assets prior to renunciation to ensure I would escape the exit tax. He said the IRS is not the least bit interested in me except that they would like me to be in compliance and that they wouldn’t waste their resources on me. Of course this doesn’t make me feel better knowing the penalties that can be applied if they were to come after me.
My understanding is that if a renouncer can not provide the previous five years of tax filings they are a covered expat and subject to the exit tax.
yes correct, i did the 5 years back filling (2011-2015) for this reason. no tax owed but plenty of accountant fees. also the 6 years fbars. i was more worried about fbar penalties than filing penalties. if no tax is owed, no penalties.
also in case there are other UK/US citizens contemplating renunciation right now. My tax lawyer said if you are going to renounce, now is the right time. with the current exchange rate due to Brexit.