(10) Lying to prevent a crime is a virtue.
Commentary: USA citizenship-based taxation is a crime when applied to people living outside the USA jurisdiction. It is theft at multiple levels: (1) It is territorial theft of another country’s tax base. (2) It is theft to tax a person without representation. (3) It is theft to tax a person for the benefit of others. Furthermore, many of the reporting requirements of FATCA and FBAR cause crimes to be committed. The government of Canada, e.g., has committed a crime by sending the bank account information of Canadian residents and ciitzens to the IRS–it is national origin discrimination which is forbidden in the charter of rights, and it is a violation of their right to privacy.
It may be necessary to lie to prevent the IRS and one’s own local government from committing crimes. One may have to lie to a bank about where one was born. One may have to omit details when filling out forms.
While lying to prevent a crime is a virtue, lying to cover up a crime is politics as usual.
Previous Discussion:
Rahab’s renunciation of citizenship–Was she a harlot, liar, traitor and tax cheat or a heroine of faith?
California genocide and the Indian Tax Revolt of 1851
Fair tax, unfair tax: or When is it paying my fair share?
Is it taxation without representation if you can vote? Damn right!
Previous Petros Principles:
(1) What the IRS can’t know unless you tell them can’t hurt you.
(2) Fear makes the IRS more dangerous than it really is.
(3) Haste is the devil.
(4) Those most hurt by the IRS’s persecution of expats have engaged the services of cross-border compliance condors.
(5) Those least hurt have done nothing.
(6) Home is where you live.
(7) An unjust law is no law.
(8) Don’t feed the beast.
(9) Do the minimum in trying to achieve the least bad outcome.
(10) Lying to prevent a crime is a virtue.
(11) Cynical derision of Homelanders is healthy.
About: Petros is the alias of the founding administrator of the Isaac Brock Society. Petros Principles are guidelines that have helped him and others deal with the United States’ world-wide tax invasion.
@Bubblebustin
What with police stations buying Margarita machines with confiscated cash from traffic “holdups” ( as I would call them) lets HOPE they scrap this law altogether.
My wife still has ties to the United States. Her mother with whom she lived with for the majority of her life. Her mother is trapped down there with physical disabilities that make it difficult for her to travel, thanks to medical malpractice which she doesn’t have the monetary funds for which to sue (let alone the fact that the statute of limitations has long since run out). So my mother-in-law sits in Louisiana on disability and because of FATCA, my wife cannot visit because she does not have the financial resources herself to file and get clear. If we had the money, we would find a way to yank my mother-in-law across the border.
So do not tell me that: “You don`t have the ties which bring problems for those who have stronger ties.”
We choose to hide because we have NO OTHER CHOICE in the matter. We cannot afford to get my wife clear nor do we have the monetary funds to get my sons clear. The only thing that we can do is live our lives not acknowledging my wife’s country of origin.
Yes, the pain is there. We have ties. We have to sever them or we will be financially bankrupt. So your presumptuous statement angers me.
For further reference, my mother-in-law raised her daughter (my wife) as a single mother after her ex-husband bailed on her when my wife was 3 years old. So let me ask you if you realize just how strong the ties are between my wife and my mother? And she still came up and joined me (due to love) in Canada. My wife’s heart-breaking choice when faced with FATCA was to not acknowledge that she was from the States and have limited contact with her mother that she loves very much.
So don’t tell me that there aren’t “strong ties”…some which have had to have been heart-breakingly broken.
To this day Petros still has to wonder if his father is still out there (still missing)…I don’t know if you recall his heartbreaking travel to Alaska? Or you probably weren’t in IBS at the time. So I think YOU owe Petros an apology.
@Polly. The US has forced tens of thousands of expats into “voluntarily” renouncing their USC. Forced exile may not be as bad as threats to knee-cap your mother, but both are human rights violations. Both the US and Eritrea should be condemned for their diaspora taxes. Those expats who wish to retain their USC/birthright shouldn’t be forced to feed the Beast.
@Polly
Compliance is not an option, period.
The US tax code is very 80,000 pages. Even those with the best intentions can not even learn of everything with in 80,000 pages. One, just one over looked , unknown, hiden rule and that’s it. The whole “gotcha” penalty regime kicks in. Want to, wish to, would love to comply but just can’t.
I wonder how long it would actually take to read though 80,000 of tax code. Anyone have an idea? I do know this, there is not enough time in any working person’s life to do so. And most of us can not afford the “professional” assistance needed to work though 80,000 pages each year.
I know, I have tried. It CAN NOT be done and it fires me and others who know it CAN NOT be done to constantly be told it MUST be done.
@UKRose
Don’t wait until after she gets a posting to the US, tell her now so that she can make an informed descion on accepting it.
Just curious, do the BBC and other news outleys in the UK not tell the story of the Boris Johnson’s, the former Mayor of London and now a minister in the new government, difficulty with the US IRS?
I have no compunctions to lying to protect myself in terms of taxation. The only government that has the right to “tax me” and know the absolute truth of what I earn…is Canada, where I was born, where I live and where my family is. Where I receive benefits from in the roads upon which I travel, in the health-care of which I partake in and in the banks and services with which I utilize on a daily basis as well as the schools in which my children get educated.
Where I get enraged is when the country of my wife’s birth has the presumptuousness that they can see MY tax returns just because I, in a fit of conjugal insanity, decided that we (my wife and I) should have a joint bank account (after all…we were together as a couple and as a family). What I don’t accept is the fact that the United States which has not given one iota of benefit towards my family thinks that they have the absolute right under their law (which in fact stops at their border) to know what I earn, to take from the mouths of my family because they feel that they have the God-given right to do so. They do not provide benefits for the “fair share” of which they claim that we owe, even claiming from the bank accounts of those who have no ties to the United States except by marriage. You are expected to pay tribute for the sole benefit of being on American soil when you were born and yet you consider yourselves “free”. That is a laughable notion if there ever was one.
You who say that “the law is the law” are being taken for a ride. You have been indoctrinated from youth to believe that “might makes right” – in that the military might of the United States (built on the bodies of the indigent that they have neglected) gives them the right to dictate policy to the rest of the world. In that, YOU are sadly mistaken.
Yes, I choose not to cross the border – why tempt the lion’s den? If a nation chooses to tax those beyond their borders without proper benefit, then they are nothing but thieves. Thieves under legal precedent but thieves nonetheless. And do I give my wallet to a thief who comes into my home? Perhaps if he is wielding a gun. but as soon as his back is turned, my knife will be in the back of his neck.
The simple fact is that the thief may have a gun, but he cannot bring it across to your house without international condemnation.
Those who choose to comply with regulations can do so given their individual needs, but do not condemn those who choose to elude the Beast and fight back as the Viet Cong guerillas did during the Viet Nam War.
Those, however, in government who choose to make discourse with those who mean to do us harm (with FATCA and financial war) are traitors, plain and simple; they are those who do not appreciate the idea of their nation of residence’s national sovereignty and who would show their belly to the Beast. They are guilty of seditious behavior towards our nation and should be hung. Every single politician of every single nation who caved into this financial mugging by a nation run by a THUG, is guilty of treason to their respective nation’s national sovereignty and to their welfare and security of their nation.
Yes, I said it. Barack Obama is a THUG in a suit. He wears a smile on his face, yet in his hands is a “gun of policy” and he brandished it like a weapon. He and those who follow him deserve nothing but contempt.
@Polly
Yes-you are one of those who has no ties to America.
and perhaps you do not know how i had to come to the determination that i become a self relinquisher.
after much research, reading and talking to “professionals” the bottom line was that it would cost me around $40,000 to become 5 year tax compliant just so that i could go into a consulate and formally give up something that i was told in 1980 that i had already given up.
i do not have anywhere near that kind of money to start the process so in the end doing nothing and coming to terms with never crossing into amerika again was a fairly easy decision as it was my only option.
i am angry at the position our gov’t has placed over 1,000,000 canadian citizens in given their desire for us to comply with a foreign governments demands.
i am a canadian citizen resident in canada and will only obey canadian laws while i am resident here. and to the best of my knowedge i am still protected by our charter of rights which does not allow place of birth discrimination.
My apologies to those who have absolutely no other possibilities but to lie or be ruined. Like I have said before- I know many people who have renounced without paying their taxes. They needed the CLN in order to continue to do banking abroad. I have not condemned them or others who have chosen to lie. I was addressing those who have options.
But God do I hate it when people lash out and behave so emotionally even towards those who are on the same team.
If you have to lie – then go ahead. I have also mentioned Holocaust survivors who have gotten through that war by lying. So I am not as black or white as some of you seem to assume.
Would I like to see the laws change? OF COURSE. But for now- it doesn’t look like it – and the elephant is still in the room. Will America actually realise its threats to punish those they assume are crooks? Will they show leniency and understanding for those between a rock and a hard place? We don`t know yet what consequences will come. Hopefully my acquaintances who have lied and renounced wont be punished for it. But if one has no other recourse but to lie or be ruined- then what`s the point of arguing? I`m not here to argue.
@Polly
It is because we are doing everything with in our very limited power to educate enough people in hopes to create a critcal mass and force change, or whatever else we can do to protect ourselves and our families and the responses we most often encounter are ‘the law must be obeyed’ , ‘ignorance of the law is no excuse’ or something very near.
Hearing the enemy’s battle cry from within your own ranks is a most uncomfortable situation, one that demands interrogation to determine whether or not the enemy has infiltrated our camp.
@Japan T – “…do the BBC and other news outleys in the UK not tell the story of the Boris Johnson’s, the former Mayor of London and now a minister in the new government, difficulty with the US IRS?”
Johnson’s vow to renounce was reported, back at the time he was hit for US tax on the sale of his property.
He didn’t do it though. He chose to remain a U.S. citizen because he found it convenient to renew his US passport. That too was reported, but attracted little interest.
Johnson has now changed his mind again and renounced after all – not for any reasons associated with CBT but because he wanted to clear the decks for replacing Cameron as PM. Not a very newsworthy event, considering everything else that has been happening in the UK, but yes, it was reported.
I am waiting until after my renunciation date in a couple of weeks to say anything to my colleague. Don’t want to draw any attention to my plans in the meantime.
Regarding Boris, I can honestly say I didn’t take much notice of news stories about him until Brexit because now I have a reason to take notice. Many here do seem to be unaware or at least the people in my life, it probably has to do with my profession which is very far removed from tax, finance world. .Even my UK partner was shocked when I explained the rules and why I was having to spend all this money to file taxes to a foreign government. I don’t have any ties to any US citizens here, just a couple of family members in the USA.
@iota
Thanks.
The reason I asked is that I would think that his having to pay the US on the sale of hiis ome in the UK would have alerted all USCs who know they are USCs and duals that there are problems related to being a USC.
Of course, I myself was unaware that such things as FATCA and FBAR existed. I knew of the so called amnesty programs but thought thy were nit for me as I am not a tax cheat.
Perhaps the same line of thinking is common.
@Japan T – I can only speak for myself. Not knowing of the existence of CBT, and not identifying primarily as a USC, and not being in any danger of making a tidy profit of $600,000 from the sale of property – I wouldn’t have seen any reason to think Johnson’s financial mishaps would be relevant to me.
It was FATCA that rang the bell for me, as for many others.
It strikes me as odd that BoJo’s name hasn’t shown up on the latest “Liberty List”, considering latest reports have him renouncing in March. Wouldn’t he pull a few strings to get his name prominently displayed there if having renounced is so important to the UK electorate?
@Bubblebustin – I don’t think most of the British public have the slightest interest in Johnson’s US citizenship. Some were briefly interested in his tax problems – whether from empathy or schadenfreude, who knows. He renounced to make sure his loyalty couldn’t be made into an issue, endangering his advent to Number 10.
I should think very few UK voters even know of the existence of the Federal Register, let alone the quarterly list.
I would agree, but I do remember reading about a politician in the Caribbean somewhere whose candidacy for office was being contested because her name hadn’t shown up in the register (office there required she renounce US citizenship).
Wanna bet he hasn’t renounced?
I don’t see the Mail falsely attributing the statement to the Foreign Office, because that would be risky and they have nothing to gain by it.
And I don’t see the Foreign Office saying he’s no longer a US citizen unless it’s true. He’s presumably deep in the throes of Developed Vetting by now, so the status of all citizenships, current and former, will be examined.
I also can’t see that it matters one way or the other. He certainly didn’t renounce in protest over the US tax system.
For myself, I don’t identify as a US citizen anymore, I’ve been here too long,. I have been a dual citizen since 1990 and only spent my minor years in the USA. Had I not been doing things like visiting my siblings on a US passport because I was required to, I might even have tried for a relinquishment but I rather renounce without any doubt then have a relinquishment refused.
I first became aware of Fbar through my bank’s Fatca letter and then CBT afterwards after making enquires. I had been diligently saving my whole working life and the bank must have come across my bank balances and details during one of their searches for US persons. Not quite sure how they identified me as a possible US person as I don’t remember ever mentioning my birth place.
And the only comments I have ever received from acquaintances, friends, my husband’s family or friends, co-workers when they have found out in the past that I hold dual citizenship, is to say how lucky I was that I had US citizenship too so surely complete ignorance on these people’s part. I think before Fatca the issue must have been mainly ignored by everyone even the IRS. Even my US based siblings didn’t know until now.
I only wish I found Brock sooner so I would have been educated before seeking tax help.
@Rose – “Not quite sure how they identified me as a possible US person as I don’t remember ever mentioning my birth place.”
That’s interesting. They’re only required to look for US Place of Birth, or for US addresses / telephone numbers, or for standing orders to US accounts. Do you recall when you opened the account that got you FATCA’ed? Might you have shown your US passport as ID?
“I think before Fatca the issue must have been mainly ignored by everyone even the IRS. ”
Up until the mid-Eighties. Sometime around then, US passports acquired an information paragraph stating that US citizens abroad continued to be required to file. It’s not present in any of my earlier expired US passports so I assume the Reagan tax cuts must have inspired the IRS to turn their attention to Americans abroad to seek replacement revenue. I may be wrong.
Unfortunately I never read that paragraph until 2015. Who reads passports? 🙁
@iota
Actually come to think of it, i think i might know how they might have identified me, when my mother was often sending me dollar checks on a periodic basis, a couple of times a year. She did that with all of us siblings even well into adulthood but I was the only one living overseas. Sadly she passed away and it’s just my dad now but my dad doesn’t do this. Perhaps my mother’s cheques was the reason?
My passport doesn’t seem to say USA as my birth place but the state is mentioned that would be assumed to a US state I suppose. Most of my bank accountants were opened with a UK passport. I did have the one when I was a student when I first came but that account has been long closed down.
Whatever the reason, I was identified and the letter was more or less asking the question, confirm your resident status for tax, not stating it as a fact that they knew.
@Rose – does your UK passport show your place of birth? Mine does. All my accounts were opened decades ago, when banks had no reason to care where a customer was born, but if I tried to open a new account now, showing my passport as ID, I’d be fingered as a suspected US Person and would have to produce my CLN to prove my innocence.
It’s nuts.
@iota
just double checked by passport and all it says is the State that I was born, the words United States, USA etc is not mentioned at all. However it is a state that would be well known to be a US state because I don’t know of any other place with that name and doing a search on google only brings up that US state.
also i have several bank accounts with a few different banks and come to think of it, the one that sent the letter is the one that I was paying the US dollar cheques into from my mother (and also the one with the highest balance). never heard anything from any of my other banks.
@Rose – yes, unfortunately the name of the state would probably be sufficient. It would be identified by automated due diligence screening as a US place of birth.
Where are you going to renounce?