(10) Lying to prevent a crime is a virtue.
Commentary: USA citizenship-based taxation is a crime when applied to people living outside the USA jurisdiction. It is theft at multiple levels: (1) It is territorial theft of another country’s tax base. (2) It is theft to tax a person without representation. (3) It is theft to tax a person for the benefit of others. Furthermore, many of the reporting requirements of FATCA and FBAR cause crimes to be committed. The government of Canada, e.g., has committed a crime by sending the bank account information of Canadian residents and ciitzens to the IRS–it is national origin discrimination which is forbidden in the charter of rights, and it is a violation of their right to privacy.
It may be necessary to lie to prevent the IRS and one’s own local government from committing crimes. One may have to lie to a bank about where one was born. One may have to omit details when filling out forms.
While lying to prevent a crime is a virtue, lying to cover up a crime is politics as usual.
Previous Discussion:
Rahab’s renunciation of citizenship–Was she a harlot, liar, traitor and tax cheat or a heroine of faith?
California genocide and the Indian Tax Revolt of 1851
Fair tax, unfair tax: or When is it paying my fair share?
Is it taxation without representation if you can vote? Damn right!
Previous Petros Principles:
(1) What the IRS can’t know unless you tell them can’t hurt you.
(2) Fear makes the IRS more dangerous than it really is.
(3) Haste is the devil.
(4) Those most hurt by the IRS’s persecution of expats have engaged the services of cross-border compliance condors.
(5) Those least hurt have done nothing.
(6) Home is where you live.
(7) An unjust law is no law.
(8) Don’t feed the beast.
(9) Do the minimum in trying to achieve the least bad outcome.
(10) Lying to prevent a crime is a virtue.
(11) Cynical derision of Homelanders is healthy.
About: Petros is the alias of the founding administrator of the Isaac Brock Society. Petros Principles are guidelines that have helped him and others deal with the United States’ world-wide tax invasion.
Yes FBAR is what worries me most, that and the fact I can not pay for an accountant keps me from renouncing. Because I had a joint account with my spouse, it would be their assets I would be reporting. That is not going to happen.
@MoanerLisa
“I felt kicked when I was down, but he was, quite understandably, just looking out for himself. ”
What a pr*ck!
@Japan T
I totally understand what you are saying. I also had joint accounts with my spouse but he was understanding of the issue. Not that he liked it but he was understanding because it was necessary for me to get out. I was lucky I had the means to pay to get out. I was told that many can not afford to come into compliance. My tax situation was not 100% straight forward with just a wage, if you have just a wage and bank interest you may be able to file yourself.
@iota I understand why you would say that about American values, but if you are going to be brought up in America and preached on freedom and all the rest, then they should be practicing what they preach. I have learned that the freedom that Americans enjoy is inferior to the freedom enjoyed by citizens of other countries which is the freedom to leave one’s country. I am already being taxed in the UK and receive government services. I receive $0 in US government services because I am ineligible because I don’t live in the US. How is this free? What if the pope decided to tax all Catholics for life? What if Italy was taxing my mother her whole life after she became a naturalized US citizen because she was born there? Why should this be blindly accepted as normal? It’s not normal.
also forgot to mention the invasions of my privacy and my family’s privacy. I cannot save for retirement like my neighbour can and money earned here should remain here. I could write all day about the injustice of it all but we all already know this. if someone has US of their US citizenship, they will retain it and the pros might outweigh the cons however if someone doesn’t, they will see all these things as being a huge liability.
@UKRose
Yes, I am told that it may be possible to get caught up on my filings. My “schedule” such it is does not allow me the time to do so. Beside, that time would first be needed to learn anew the language of the land I live in. While a college student, my Japanese was not bad and improved dailiy. Now that I work here and have a job that requires English, my Japanese is not sufficient to gain Japanese nationality.
So, to renounce I have years of study and work and no time to do it in.
Actually, my spouse is not so concerned about me turning over their data. Not happy but not worried. Perhaps it comes from my time in the Navy and the training I got on keeping all informtion secure or my experience of being a victim of identity theft, whatever it was, I will not give my spouses data to what is a foreign government to them.
Something that may make this decision easier for those in some countries than it may be for those in others is what information can be learned from account information. All pay in Japan is via direct deposit and all our house bills paid via automatic withdrawal from the same account. So, my spouses employer, our address through utility bills and where are children attend preschool through payments to it and any other assets my spouse had connected can all be learned through our joint account. Just too much information in the hands of a government that can not keep the names of their spies safe and have already said they will share the info with pretty much anyone who asks for it.
I am happy for those who can escape and wish I could join you.
@Rose – “He said the IRS is not the least bit interested in me except that they would like me to be in compliance and that they wouldn’t waste their resources on me. Of course this doesn’t make me feel better knowing the penalties that can be applied if they were to come after me.”
The thing is, the penalties can’t be applied just on the whim of the IRS.
One of the main reasons the IRS wouldn’t waste their resources pursuing a UK-resident taxpayer with no US-based assets is because there’s no US-UK collection agreement.
Only five countries have signed mutual tax collection agreements with the US. Sweden, Canada (but not for Cdn citizens), Australia I think…can’t recall the other two.
For renunciants residing in other countries, including the UK, the IRS would find it very difficult to enforce collection of penalties, interest, or taxes unless there was court-worthy evidence of deliberate tax fraud, significant enough to warrant an extradition request.
UKRose
Why is it blindly accepted? That, to me, is the $64,000 question. Why indeed? The reasons I have been given by homelanders are impossible to believe. I have been told that I deserve it for leaving the US. That the protection of US ends at the boder but the responsibilities to it do not.
That US citienship is a club and that it is foolish to think that one can stop paying dues just because you have not visited the clubhouse in a while. It’s OK because roads, bridges and schools are falling apart because of the tax money the US has not been collecting from us.
They don’t just accept it, that make the most outlandish excuses for it.
They do not know the Constitution nor care to learn it. Judges write that it should no longer be referenced when deciding cases. Law schools are teaching future lawyers that it is no longer relevant to modern US law.
@Rose – ”
@iota I understand why you would say that about American values, but if you are going to be brought up in America and preached on freedom and all the rest, then they should be practicing what they preach. I have learned that the freedom that Americans enjoy is inferior to the freedom enjoyed by citizens of other countries which is the freedom to leave one’s country. I am already being taxed in the UK and receive government services. I receive $0 in US government services because I am ineligible because I don’t live in the US. How is this free? What if the pope decided to tax all Catholics for life? What if Italy was taxing my mother her whole life after she became a naturalized US citizen because she was born there? Why should this be blindly accepted as normal? It’s not normal.”
Couldn’t agree with you more. Of course they should be practicing what they preach, but they don’t.
Of course, that too is not unique to the US. Most if not all governments do one thing and say another. The rigid American constitutional framework, in combination with the built-in tension between the states and the federal government, gives the US government a lot more scope for such shenanigans, and its huge world dominance gives it the power to extend that malpractice extra-territorially.
@iota
Yes but if one wants to renounce, then one would have to pay those fines would they not?
@Japan T – “So basically, everyone born in the US is never completely free of the US, with or without a CLN.”
Sort of. If their US birth place is not on file, or if they can satisfy their banks(s) that they’re not a US citizen (whether by showing a CLN or providing a “reasonable explanation”), there’s no problem until they want to open a new account, at which point they have to prove their innocence all over again.
“The rigid American constitutional framework, in combination with the built-in tension between the states and the federal government, gives the US government a lot more scope for such shenanigans”
Now that I must disagree with. It is precisy because the Constitution is not being followed that these shenanigans have been allowed. If the Congress was doing its job of protecting its Constitutional power it would have kept the Executive branche’s misuse of its power in check. If the citizenry lived up to its collective duty then these 2000 page bills submitted at 11:59 pm Friday night to be voted upon at 7:35 am on Monday would come to a halt as would the slipping in of a section that has nothing to do with the overall bill just before the vote. Same with the other tricks they pull.
If the Supreme Court lived up to its Constitutional duty and rules based upon the law and political though, much of this would never be.
But the American citizen has been more interested in Pokeman Go or whatever the newest craze is to pay attention to what our representatives have been doing on our behalf.
@ Japan T – “@iota
Yes but if one wants to renounce, then one would have to pay those fines would they not?”
Not necessarily. Depends on your circumstances.
First, would the IRS try to apply penalties? In many cases, probably not, because they might class it as not cost-effective.
Second, if they did try to apply penalties, does the person have US assets? If yes, and the IRS know about the assets, then it’s probably going to be very easy for the IRS to collect.
Third, if no US assets, would the person’s local government help the US to enforce collection, and if so, what rights does the person have under local law?
You don’t have to pay IRS penalties in order to renounce and receive a CLN. The two things are separate. I kept my renunciation receipt and my email correspindence with the Consulate, in case my CLN never came, but it did, and when it came the authorization date showed that it had been processed before the IRS even received my 8854.
“If the Supreme Court lived up to its Constitutional duty and rules based upon the law and political though, much of this would never be.”
And yet here we are. I rest my case.
Interesting. Will continue to look in to this. My concern was not with assets in the States as I have none but with assets that would be on the FBAR, those not being my own to begin with.
On the side issue of the US Constitution. If it were rigid or rigidly followed, our issues would not be. I believe if it were rigidly followed, we would not be here. So it is not the rigid Constitution and the States and Federal govrnments competing for power that got us here, rather it is the abandonement of this system that allowed all this to transpire.
Congress members and Senators actually used to defend their individual powers and represent their constituents. Now they see their purpose as the President’s sales staff. Instead of telling the President what he can and can’t do, they go tell their constituents what the President wants and why they must allow it to him.
“On the side issue of the US Constitution. If it were rigid or rigidly followed, our issues would not be. I believe if it were rigidly followed, we would not be here. So it is not the rigid Constitution and the States and Federal govrnments competing for power that got us here, rather it is the abandonement of this system that allowed all this to transpire.”
The UK has no written Constitution. This has disadvantages, but it does allow courts and governments much more flexibility to allow for common sense and simple common humanity in applying statutory law. The US Constitution is why the US Congress is in a semi-permanent state of paralysis.
The states’ rights tension is exactly why USCs suffer under FATCA, with its persecutory witch hunt features, while under CRS, expats from other countries aren’t affected. Only accounts held by non-residents are reported on. The US can’t sign up to CRS, which does not discriminate on the basis of nationality, because CRS requires reciprocity and the US tax haven states would never consent.
If the Congress were paralyzed, then we would not have any of this. They are pumping out new laws and regulations to implement them at record pace. That is why many Americans including myself applaud so called government shut downs. They can do no harm when there are not open for business. Just take a look at how many pages the tax code is and how much it has grown of late.
A rigid application of the Constitution would prevent all of our issues. “Congress shall make no law…” abridging the several rights with special protection is as rigid as rigid can be. Yet Congress has made plenty of laws abridging these and most other rights.
The US should never sign the CRS regardless of the states wishes against it. If wrong doing is suspected then get a warrant and ask for help in getting the info. That’s what tax treaties are for.
“The US should never sign the CRS regardless of the states wishes against it. If wrong doing is suspected then get a warrant and ask for help in getting the info. That’s what tax treaties are for.”
That used to be the case. Before FATCA, under the US bilateral tax treaties, the IRS could only request account info for a named individual they wanted to nail. Automatic exchange, whether inder FATCA, CRS, CDOT, or other regime, allows the automatic transfer of information on all accounts fitting a specified profile. It’s not going to go away. CRS is less intrusive than FATCA, by a long shot. I’m perfectly happy living under the CRS regime – it doesn’t interfere with me at all, as I don’t have any offshore accounts, and never have had any.
Japan T, you often sound as if you don’t really want to renounce, and feel you shouldn’t have to. I sympathize, if that’s how you feel. I wish you luck finding a solution to your problems that you can be happy with. I’m off now, as it’s a lovely sunny day here, and I am going for a walk. 🙂
I don’t see that FATCA played a role in that tax evasion conviction. As far as minnows not being the target of FATCA goes, and until the US government explicitly exempts minnows we are in their sights. If we aren’t, why did they create a Streamlined amnesty program specifically for minnows? To the IRS, you are either compliant or non-compliant, and the law’s the law.
I guess the proof will be whether the IRS starts sending letters to minnows in Canada or anywhere else, and whether they stick to their rule that you can not enter an amnesty program after they’ve contacted you first.
I don’t know of any Canadians who’ve received a letter form the IRS as result of the first batch of information reporting last September. Perhaps with budgetary constraints on the IRS, they won’t bother knowing there isn’t much gold in thar offshore hills as far as minnows go. I suspect the IRS will be happy just to process people who present themselves on a voluntary basis, denying us the ensuing screams of a mass fleecing.
@iota
To be sure I do not want to renounce and do not think I should have to, as many before have written that they felt the same. But I would if I could.
My first step is to replace hours lost at work or my kid gets bounced from day care. After that got to make time some how to restart actually learning Japanese again. When my language skills are enough and all other requirements are met, I will go for Japanese citizenship if it looks like I can finish renouncing with in two years.
Enjoy your walk. I would have done the same today if I had not slept until 2 pm. Very little sleep these days.
@BB
Thanks, I was sure there were other points to this that belied the myth that it is only for fatcats.
Additionally, the IRS has repeatedly said that it was about compliance. They just can not abide anyone escaping their form fetish.
There’s no such attitude within the IRS that says to non-residents “it’s ok if you don’t want to come into compliance, but if you do, here’s Streamlined”, lol!
No, I wouldn’t think there would be.
There are too many parts of this that are undoubtably targeting us. I just can not understand how anyone can say we are not targets.
@Japan T
it is true that the tax part is separate from the renunciation part. one can renounce and never back file or even send in a form 8854. I still have family members in the USA and wanted to exit the system cleanly in case they ever made it difficult for covered expats to visit the USA in future.
regarding the Fatca, the IRS wants everyone to be in compliance, no exceptions and there are many people that are not in compliance through ignorance thus streamlined is available. The laws have always affected everyone, everyone has to file, it’s just in the past there was less filing requirements and less enforcement effort.
But I was told that the IRS has a reduced work force and budget cuts so if they are going to come after someone it will be the ones that are worthwhile to pursue. That is tax payers that they deem to owe big bucks. I don’t know any of this as fact. I lived in the UK for so long, was never contacted by the IRS ever for a tax return.
But the rules themselves apply to everyone. One needs to determine their risk factor, can I realistically stay under the radar and ignore all this? Can I get by with the minimum of paperwork? Some people are in a position that they will never come anywhere near the Fatca thresholds. whatever works and makes you sleep at night. Once entering the system through a compliance condor, it becomes harder to be in the system because they will make sure that you dot your I’s and cross all your T’s.
I am renouncing because I am also worried that laws may get worst, thresholds lowered and I won’t be able to get out later. the timing is perfect for me right now. I am not happy about it but this is where my loyalty lies and it is what it is.
@Japan T
Yes, it’s often about the forms, and that is a problem. I reckon that there are a fair few people who don’t owe the IRS money but don’t fill in the forms because life’s short and what good does this tax filing do? 13+ hours of very boring paperwork a year or hundreds of pounds a year for what purpose if the end result is always $0 tax? The IRS seems to think that the non-compliers are like the compliers, so they envision lots of tax rolling in, but the median income of U.S. tax filers in many places is much bigger than that of the U.S. born population.
@UKRose
The reasons you give are exactly why I need to renounce and do so cleanly. But need and ability are not the same.
BTW, I used to file until they made it demanding and I was no longer able to do so. I too believe that it will only get worse. The evidence is before our eyes.
Get luck with your exit. I hope it goes smoothly from here on out.