ADMISSION FEE $20 UNLESS OTHERWISE NOTED (to cover costs)
- Toronto, ON U.S. Citizenship & Young Adults: Navigating The Special Rules Imposed On U.S.Citizens Abroad Sat, June 7, 10 am to 12 noon, Univ of Toronto, St. Michael’s College, Carr Hall, 100 St. Joseph St, MAP NB: $20 individual or $40 for a family of up to four people
Vancouver notes (Feb 22) Updated on March 28 here
Toronto group Saturday, January 25, 2014, Carr Hall
I received the following announcement about information sessions, provided by Toronto based lawyer, for people affected by the USA’s extra-territorial tax overreach which violates Canada’s sovereignty. I think it is a good idea. If you are an alleged US person and you have become aware that the US claims that you should be filing your taxes, please do nothing, do not enter the OVDI program, and above all, do not call a US cross border tax specialist (neither a lawyer nor an accountant), but educate yourself first. The paid experts will scare the hell out of you. There are many options besides allowing a cross border specialist lead you as a lamb to the slaughter.
If you are a Canadian citizen or resident of Canada, you have specific rights and protections that even FATCA cannot revoke. This is why these informational sessions will be useful to you. They will lay out and explore all your options.
Sincerely, Petros
Please note that the speaker would like help finding venues that are inexpensive or free. Perhaps those living in the various cities could ask if a Church or other may be able to offer space. Please keep returning for updates.
Here is the announcement:
Recent CBC Coverage of FATCA and Citizenship-based taxation:
The recent CBC coverage of FATCA and U.S. extraterritorial taxation has raised awareness/concern over the plight of Canadian citizens of U.S. origin. Those who are learning about this for the first time (the OMG moment) will be experiencing a combination of shock, fear, betrayal and more. There will be lots of people interested in understanding the situation and determining whether and/or how to respond.
The following comment appeared on the blog:
Looks like the recent media coverage is creating mass panic in Canada. This might force the Canadian government to issue a statement sooner rather than later. This is good. But I feel bad for the people who are just having their OMG moment. They need some sound advice as to not to make bad decisions which would devastate them financially. While each situation is different, the Canadian government owes it to affected Canadians to provide some guidance and advice and fast. It needs to be official cannot just come from web sites like IBS or Maple Sandbox. Maybe the administrators should add some notes like they can’t be held responsible for actions that people take by following advice on these blogs. This is common sense, but might protect you from lawsuits.
We agree! The important thing it to stay calm! Do NOT panic! Do not react to this situation! Take your time to make the decisions that are appropriate to your situation! Above all else, do NOT even consider entering the Offshore Voluntary Disclosure Program or any other kind of disclosure program unless you are certain that it is right for you (which it almost certainly is NOT)!
Obviously NO blog or web site can provide reliable legal advice. No seminar for the general public can provide reliable legal advice! Your job is simply to begin gathering information and beginning to understand the new reality of U.S. citizenship.
What follows are a list of “Solving The Problems of U.S. Citizenship” information sessions that you can attend, for a nominal fee and anonymously! The sessions are NOT intended to provide legal advice. But, they are intended to help you identify the issues that may apply to your situation.
Do NOT engage the services of an accountant or lawyer before equipping yourself with some basic knowledge!
Solving The Problems of U.S. Citizenship – Exploratory Sessions
The topics covered are designed to alert you to issues and are NOT offered as legal or accounting advice specific to your situation.
They include:
Citizenship Issues:
– Are you STILL a U.S. citizen?
– Are your children U.S. citizens?
– What might FATCA mean for me?
Tax Issues
– Filing U.S. tax returns – what’s involved?
– Filing information returns (FBAR, Form 3520, 5471, etc.)
– Reasonable cause (avoiding penalties)
Financial Planning Issues
– investment products that are cancerous for U.S. citizens
Does it make sense to renounce U.S. citizenship?
– Renouncing U.S. citizenship
____________________________________________________________________
How To Attend …
Once a session has been marked “CONFIRMED” you are free to attend. Each session will have a $20 admission fee (to offset the cost of the room) which is payable in cash at the door. Neither taping nor video of any kind will be permitted.
first published 14 January 2014
I’d like to report that of the phone calls I’ve had from those interested in the kingston meeting no one was a “rich tax evader” A retired person and a nurse come to mind as the two most indicative of these concerned persons. Thanks to everyone helping to advertise and to get the word out about these meetings.
This is going to be rather short for now as I am exhausted.
The meeting in Kingston had approximately 30 people there with about four needing to leave early. 26 stayed for the duration. The meeting ended up going from 1 to quarter to 5. Many thanks to the participants and the presenter. I noticed nearly everyone furiously taking notes. Five of the people there told me they learned about FATCA for the first time from the CBC program “The Current” which is very recently. There were lots of varying situations brought up as questions mostly related to tax. Two Canadian military persons brother and sister who came back to Canada as children. One person who isn’t a Canadian citizen yet had quite a few concerns while waiting to get his Canadian citizenship about how to proceed. The response being to obtain that citizenship as quickly as possible.
I am really very pleased with how many where there and wish I had been able to do paid advertising knowing that there must be hundreds of people in this area who could benefit from the help offered and the networking.
Some health issues came up with several people mentioning higher blood pressure, panic attacks and other health issues that had been affected by the problems this looming issue had caused them.
Of all the people in the room not one person was a “rich” tax cheat. While the situations were extremely varied and complicated from person to person the lawyer tried to answer as best he could in such a venue. I handed out cards to those who are local with my contact information on them in order to be able to network locally in a more helpful way.
Seeing how many came to this and how many told me that there were others who couldn’t make it today I wish there had been a better way to warn people two years ago. At the very least I feel people walked away feeling more armed and better equipped to deal with their situations.
These meetings seem to be doing a lot of good which is all I had hoped for. A big thank you to Brockers who came to Kingston and were equipped with business cards and to everyone who came ready to ask their questions, most especially to the lawyer who I think was able to give people a calm “next steps” approach to dealing with their situations. Lastly, this meeting has made it possible to reach out in a direct and more local way to those who might otherwise be isolated trying to address their response to these issues. Support is no small matter.
The demographic was most in their fifties and all middle class as we’ve known for some time. Thanks to everyone and for those of you who have my contact information I plan to hold informal local meetings in small groups in the future.
@AtticusinCanada
Thank you for hosting the Kingston Information Meeting. You really worked hard to do this to help others in your area. You have given up much of your time to help others. And Thanks for the other Brockers who came to the meeting . I hope that those attended will come to IBS and Maple Sandbox websites to learn more and participate to give ideas of their own. We need to be united together to be a strong group to fight FATCA. Now have a nice dinner, and take a rest. You deserve it.
Atticus, thanks for the report on the Kingston information session. Sounds like a good turn-out and you had many people leaving with more direction and hope than they came into the meeting with — I saw the same in the over-time, fast-paced session the lawyer gave in Toronto. The Brockers support team was also there to talk one on one with people. Yeah, no rich tax cheats — just very scared people, some already with their health affected by this.
Thanks for your idea to hold some future smaller local meetings there. I’d like to do that too — the real understanding / supportive side of things.
Thanks to you all — I know you’re exhausted in just the climate of the whole afternoon. I also know it feels good. Bravo!
I want to add a special thanks to Pacifica and Patricia as well as John. I also want to add that there were forty chairs in that room and at several points all of the chairs were taken. With 26 being the core group who stayed the duration.
The shocking thing is people who are just learning of this as we did two years ago and are all in that place of fear and worry. These meetings can do a world of good and yes, local networking and outreach is the next step for me. After all many of you were here to walk me through a lot of this step by step so I’m thrilled to be able to do the same for others in my community.
This is going to be a real tsunami as more and more find out what all of this might mean for them. Bottom line was sadly that it’s probably best to get your ducks in a row and just renounce. I do not disagree with that assessment. Ironically unless you are very, very wealthy it is quite an onerous burden to live outside the U.S. long term with spouse and child while trying to save for retirement AND continue to be a “U.S. person” Many people told me they felt they had gained a lot of good information at this meeting. That was the goal and all I wanted when trying to speak up about this. To reach others who wake up to the “U.S. person” implications.
GREAT work and outreach Brockers. This is making a difference. Best of all was being able to support those in my community and surrounding areas. I love this part of Ontario and this is a fantastic way to give something back. I’m looking forward to the next meeting reports!
Now I’m off to watch a doc and go to sleep. Have to help edit an essay tomorrow for our homestay student. N’ight all and thanks to each one who encouraged me while trying to advertise and get the word out locally about this. It is heartbreaking in a way to see so many caught like deer in the headlights but, at least they are NOT doing this alone. Kudos to all of you!
Well done Atticus! Your energy knows no bounds and I know there were a lot of shocked yet grateful people leaving that meeting. I know there is no solution for me so my only goal is to help my husband get free … next step that relinquishment appointment. Sleep well knowing you have done so much to help so many.
Take the Hand of Your Brother (Carry It On, Carry It On!)
The great days of real protest singers like Joan Baez and lots speaking out for rights. Thanks, ChearsBigEars!
Thanks Atticus for all your hands on work. I so wish something similar had existed years ago. I am still haunted by the situations of some of the people I met/overheard at a DA session some years ago now, and wonder how they made out.
Morning Brockers;
Its good to read of your efforts in educating others. Those in attendence will tell others and so forth.
I made a list of what is probably all the steps we have gone through on our own paths. I am sure there are differences but in general terms.
Journey, one step in front of the other.
1.) Decision to leave the homeland. Face possible concern and ridicule from friends and family in homeland.
2.) Apply for all the visas and other requirements to be a properly documented immigrant in your new land. Concern from homeland friends and family grows, they whisper about us.
3.) Spend years learning language, customs and become assimilated into your new home. Your allegiance is slowly transferred to your new home. Friends and family in the homeland think of you as the crazy relative locked up in the basement. They are somewhat embarrassed about us but figure we will come back saying what a mistake it was and how bad the health care system is and we ran away from the health care death panel.
4.) After a certain number of years you realize that you are no longer X but you have become Y. You fill out countless papers to be naturalised/registered as a new citizen. Christmas cards from the homeland are very light this year.
5.) The Big Day! Just like new immigrants to the USA are fully expected to become completely loyal to their new land, we/you do the same thing in our new land. Some of us in accordance with US Code as ordered changed by the US Supreme Court, intend that this action to be a relinquishing act.
Remaining proud to be an American, now proud to be a ______ Citizen, but no longer a US Citizen.
Or for others remaining proud to be an American, now proud to be a ______ Citizen, but no longer a US Citizen at least in respect to where you are living in accordance with the Master Nationality Act.
Christmas cards from the homeland grow in abundance because your homeland is where your heart is and that is where you are and your friends who are fellow citizens realize this. They no longer ask you if you are a tourist or when are you going home, didn’t you hate that. Or the question, are there things you miss?
6.) Carry about our lives in our home country. As a Citizen of X, living in X, I have only one citizenship recognized by Country X. You are calm, happy and at peace, probably the happiest you have ever been.
7.) At some point realize that our former country has established new laws or re-interpreted old ones that have absolutely no comparison to those in the countries of our sole allegiance or for some primary allegiance. Our newish countrymen look at us cross eyed when we explain what happened, they do not believe us.
8.) Panic, Fear, Health Problems
9.) Resolution. You realize that you are Canadian or French or _______, that you are not a US Citizen and have never acted like a US Citizen since becoming Canadian, French or German. Psychologically you are free at last, start sleeping again.
10.) Decision time. Do you appease those to the south (N/E/W)? For some it will make clear sense to get a CLN. For others it may look outright foolish to get a CLN. For some it will be a mixed bag.
11.) Final Sadness. All of us out of respect to the place we were raised in, or where we have family, or of a place we really never had ties but dreamed of it as that shining place on a hill, have great sadness that US Citizenship has become something that people want to get rid of like gum on a shoe. A place where when learning you might be a US Citizen is like a doctor telling you that you have a destructive disease. A place where you have become afraid to even visit again.
12.) Conclusion. Those with a CLN have some security but remain wondering if Congress or the Supreme Court will change the rules again and give them their citizenship back, something they do not want back. We have seen the rules changed too many times, fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.
Those without a CLN will wonder if their Country will support their Citizens of which you are an equal Citizens. A naturalised or registered citizen is equal to someone born in that country. Equal treatment under the law is only what we want.
Those that remain dual US in both their heart and actions? You know what they say being in the middle of the road? You become road kill unless you are very adept on your feet and can stay informed as to what Congress and agencies are doing every month.
The dream that you can carry a blue book and redbook, that you can vote for your MP and member of congress, that you can work in one country every other year, AND juggle the administrative burden associated with and not screw up, well I hate to say it but it is a dream. The plates will come down and break to pieces.
Canadian/Ireland, Yes it works.
Irish/French, Yes it works.
USA/_______, it only works one direction if you live in the homeland.
fix itnow
end bold
trying to fix the bold type maybe
@George
You pretty well described my journey in leaving the homeland and becoming Canadian with your accurate descriptions of my emotions too. Excellent job!
@CBE wonderful video! Thank you for sharing it here!
@George, yes that’s pretty much the progression. Some of those steps took longer than others. I didn’t feel I’d done anything that should cost me my birthright as a U.S. citizen and probably would never have relinquished my citizenship had this not come along to make it quite impossible for my family should I keep it. I still have feelings of altering resentment and sorrow but, I am working on moving forward from those. It’s not healthy to dwell on that when there’s nothing I can do about it. Secondly, I have so little to complain about having landed in such a great place to live, be accepted as a citizen and when others are in much worse situations. I know a man who lives in Jamaica right now with his Jamaican wife and kid. How is he going to give up his U.S. citizenship? How can his family afford for him not to? He has a lot more to lose than those of us in Canada and Europe do. Maybe he can move back if they accept his wife and child there and IF he has a job there. At least we were in a stable and wealthy country when this started to happen.
I still get angry when I see the look of worry and upset on people’s faces though. All this uproar upon middle class people because of an insane concept put in place during the civil war, meant as a punishment for leaving called Citizenship Based Taxation.
George,
I’ve looked at the post. I think I know what the problem is as I’ve made the same before when I posted something. I can probably fix it, but it will involve a little more time than I have right now. I will do that a little later.
I’ve fixed the bolding, but someone else (Petros?) will have to go in to make font larger for London, ON entry.
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The prior June 2004 relinquishment only applies if
“Expatriation on or before June 3, 2004
The expatriation tax provisions (prior to the AJCA amendments) apply to U.S. citizens who have renounced their citizenship and long-term residents who have ended their US residency for tax purposes, if one of the principal purposes of the action is the avoidance of U.S. taxes. You are presumed to have tax avoidance as a principle purpose if:
Your average annual net income tax for the last 5 tax years ending before the date of the action is more than $124,000, or
Your net worth on the date of the action is $622,000 or more.
If you meet either of the tests shown above, you may be eligible to request a ruling from the IRS that you did not expatriate to avoid U.S. taxes. You must request this ruling within one year from the date of expatriation. For information that must be included in your ruling request, see Section IV of Notice 97-19. If you receive this ruling, the expatriation tax provisions do not apply.
The expatriation tax applies to the 10-year period following the date of the expatriation action. Individuals that renounced their US citizenship and long-term residents that terminated their US residency for tax purposes on or before June 3, 2004 must file an initial Form 8854, Initial and Annual Expatriation Information Statement. For more detailed information refer to Expatriation Tax in Publication 519, U.S. Tax Guide for Aliens.
Form 8854, Initial and Annual Expatriation Information Statement (PDF)
Instructions for Form 8854 (PDF)
Notice 2005-36, Form 8854 and Expatriation Reporting Rules (PDF)
Press Release IR-2005-49 (issued 4/22/05), IRS, Treasury Release Guidance on Expatriation Reporting Requirements”
You are an older person and own a decent house with no mortgage probably worth more tha 622,000 net worth.
You own investment worth $622,000 a lot of this may be unrealized capital gain that you would owe to revenue canada if you sold these assets. Investment income from this $622,000 at 3.5%=$21,777. If you rented a apartment rents would be $1000 per month with no utilities. Is this really rich.
Dual Citizenship Views in the Homeland
There are going to be some Canadians with clinging US nationality who simply decide to hold out, wait another day, not throw in the towel yet. Maybe the political athmosphere in the USA will get better.
This also not a democrat/republican issue or conservative/liberal issue.
In regards to treatment of expats, I am sure Democrats Abroad and Republicans Abroad are both ashamed.
Some day in the future we may see this come down the road;
http://cis.org/DualCitizenship-Reform
@George,
Interesting article. I used to believe that America benefited from my dual citizenship. Yet,today, I’d say that America benefits from me not being a US citizen. America is probably moving backwards and has the right to do so.
@George
Actually, many countries are much broader minded when it comes to dual citizenship than that article suggests. Some countries with ethnicity-based nationalities are quite open to dual citizenship. Others because they want to keep the door open for skilled emigrants to come back..
@Pacifica777
The event I went to was organized through Eventbrite. There is a small fee for events that charge, but it worked really well.
@bubblebustin
Thanks for the tip. I will definitely look up the 1976 Act. I was wondering why there wasn’t more in the Carter era since new bits of legislation tend to come in whenever the country is in a state of malaise (usually the bits don’t get removed when things improve and, even worse, contain dollar restrictions that do not increase with inflation. G.W.Bush and Clinton weren’t bad (the estate tax limits came in at the end of Reagan) for overseas Americans because the U.S. was in a rare good mood.
@RogerConklin
Glad to hear from you. Someone named Roger Conklin who worked in international sales passed away in November, so I am glad to hear that that wasn’t you! I really liked the point you made about married couples. The situtation is difficult even if the marriage. I met a nurse from New Jersey at an NHS hospital. She had married a Brit and they had a child. Even though the marriage didn’t last, she couldn’t return to the U.S. without abandoning the child because nowadays international agreements specify that you can’t move a child from their usual country of residence without the other parent’s approval and he refused. Overseas Americans like her get forgotten.
So, where exactly is this meeting in Waterloo? Is it confirmed?
The 2013 4th Quarter Publication Of Individuals Who Have Chosen to Expatriate will be released soon. This is already a record year even without the 4th Quarter numbers. Past 4th quarter release dates have been as follows:
2012 4th quarter numbers released on Feb 14.
2011 4th quarter numbers released on Feb 2.
2010 4th quarter numbers released on Feb 11.
2009 4th quarter numbers released on Feb 26.
2008 4th quarter numbers released on Feb 5.
2007 4th quarter numbers released on Feb 8.
2006 4th quarter numbers released on Feb 2.
2005 4th quarter numbers released on Feb 7.
2004 4th quarter numbers released on Feb 5.
GET THE WORD OUT.
@MontrealFactaOff
Thanks for pointing out how consistently late the Treasury Dept is in releasing those very disputed numbers. It’s known that they are due 30 days from the end of each quarter, but are rarely on time. Eric and others here have done some very fine research on the reliability of those numbers, and how the FBI might be a more accurate source of information.
Have you seen this recent coverage in the media?
http://globalnews.ca/news/1072303/over-3100-americans-renounced-citizenship-last-year-fbi/
Some people won’t be able to hold out as Nina Olsen pointed out. I suppose if you can afford tax attorney advice year upon year then your able to wait till things get better. The sad irony of FATCA is that it is poorer expats forced into making a decision to renounce sooner rather than later. As Ms. Olsen points out some “cannot comply with FATCA” as in CANNOT. I’d have held out longer if that were possible, it was not.
I am rather tired of treasury’s punitive responses such as “they should have been paying taxes all along.” That is pure propaganda and a complete mischaracterization of this issue. 82 percent of all expats would never owe a dime in taxes. This isn’t about taxes. Forcing people to make this “Sophie’s Choice” and then to follow that up with calling them tax cheats is just beyond the pale. I think Mr. Stack needs an education or a replacement or an empathy seminar.