Just Saying No: Not Renouncing/Relinquishing Nor Complying
Some people cannot afford to renounce (or relinquish and get a CLN) and some people will not renounce or relinquish because they do not consider themselves to be US citizens.
This thread is a place for people in this situation to share information and experiences. Thanks for sharing — your stories will be very helpful to others!
At times like this, I think it’s wise to consider the example of Dennis Messner:
https://www.theonion.com/beaver-overthinking-dam-1819568416
Thank you, Dennis is certainly one of the most cute overthinkers I know 🙂
Yet, it’s a real pitty.
I just got the (apparently) automatic reply* email from the embassy … which is less funny (*given that they seriously ask me, to let them know, whether I ever had an US-Passport … although the fact that I never had one for my entire life, was stressed out prominently both in the cover email and the documents sent …) :
Renounciation Fee reduction news: No news. More precisely: On the question posed whether they would already know, when the fee reduction would be effective (I sent the Rena Bitter affidavit which is publicly available on the net from pending case lodged by Fabien Lehagre’s Association of Accidental Americans) the laconic reply was (sic): they heard “rumors about endeavors to reduce the fee but have not been informed of any changes or of an anticipated timeframe” – in plain English: forget about it, this will probably happen in rather far future if at all (the increase 2010 took 2 or 3 years if, I recall correctly what I have read somewhere).
Waiting list for an appointment: I got confirmation to be registered to be on the famous list.
Length of the waiting list : currently well over 400 customers.
Currently scheduled persons for appointements: at the moment people hat have contacted the embassy in June 2022 are scheduled.
Anticipated waiting time to get an appointment: roughly 9 months.
Effort level (LOL): Application of every effort to schedule me as soon as possible, Meanwhile they thank me for my patience and understanding.
Comment: its certainly a serious pitty (yet, I am sure, the consular people are certainly not to blame for this massive queue):. Shouldn’t the date of renounciation not rather be the date you lodged the request in view thereof. The magnitude of the figure: well over 400 persons in the queue presupposes new record levels of renunciation, but does also raise the questions how many renounciation appointments they process in a single day (I assume no more than a handful, if at all; )
I will try to speed things up by letting them know that I will be very happy to show up for an appointment on very short notice and in no time, if someone cancels (due to illness or whatever reason) leaving my contact details. Maybe there is a list of substitutes for this case to fill in occurring gaps.
I wonder also, whether the relinquisment queue migth be shorter (and whether it will wise to apply in this queue as well and proceed through the same routes in parallel: as noted elsewhere, I feel more wisely though, to keep the relinquishment as a reserve cause, if I should ultimately need it, because its apparent that the administering department is not super eager to let you retroactively go (confounding adequate protections from unilateral stateside expatriation from citizenside expatriation request based on a whole sample of facts of their entirely foreign lifes showing that they have expatriated themselves for a very longue time; ) and do not bother about this for the moment and reserve that option for the future (also not risking possible res iudiciata problems, when you are not prepared to take a negative decision of the department to court (which will certainly cost a fortune)
When this will seriously take that long, We will have to consider “work around-optiions” in term of banking until I will get the CLN, in order to avoid accounts being flag.
Any suggestions, thoughts, hints on this dilemma from all of you are as always very much appreciated.
Have a good day and keep up that great community.
Best regards AN
Consider that prior to FATCA creating a second class human being all over the world, as few as 200 renounced globally. The embassies are simply not geared for doing mass renunciations which are still carried out pretty much as they always were.
you see, they had to make sure that somebody wanting to lose US citizenship was actually sane and not being coerced.
Today, the system should be streamlined and online and cheaper, but then some embarrassing numbers might result.
Nine months is not long, keep it simple and sit tight, at least that is what I would do. I would certainly not delay for the sake of hoping the fee is dropped soon, but then only you know if that is a significant amount of money to you.
Thank you very much, Mike, I fully concur with you.
That’s what I will do (although in Switzerland 9 months seems rather long, more so, if personally concerned).
I have just politely written back and offered me as a substitute willing to step in, should a slot of a renounciation candidate become free on short notice (I would pack my stuff and rush to the embassy in the next minute) and clarified for the avoidance of doubt that I wish to proceed no matter what the fee level is :-).
If the “substitute-stepping in-thing” doesn’t work out to expedite the CLN-thing, I will have to find a creative solution regarding my banking needs front.
No matter what I will certainly duly celebrate the receipt of my CLN (aka freedom (of slavery ?) certificate).
Best regards, keep it up and wishing you all a great day out there, AN
@ Accidental Nominal,
For a faster appointment, try other locations. Bucharest currently has an approx 1 month wait time.
Thank you very much, for this hint, Pacifica (or Caroline, i inferred from other posts). I didn’t know that you can also shop around in other countries to get a CLN quicker, wow. Good to know
Yet, my politely asking for an earlier substitute appointment in case of cancellation of scheduled appointments (and my suggested ability to be at the embassy in a short time frame) yielded a super positive result and nice feedback.
“Thank you. PLease excuse about duplicate questions (AN: regarding US-Passport). Yes, correct, we ask for the sake of completeness. Sadly no short track. Indeed, that would be fantastic… “(AN: I asked whether there would be a short track procedure for accidentals/nominals/deemed; the answer is telling … they seem to be rather burdened and acknowledged that the current proceeding are way outdated and not tailored to mass renunciations (like Mike pointed out previously)
“It is always good to have customers available on short notice. There are always cancellations and we are happy to be able to fill the gap. We are sure we will be able to give you an appointment earlier than in nine months.”
Learning:
– always be nice, polite and respectful and explore any potential avenue to expedite things :-);
– more importantly and helpful for the community (to at least give it a try): the substitue/gap filler avenue may be helpful to explore for others standing in the queue all over the world (ok: Switzerland is rather tiny: I think I could get to the Embassy in 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 hours if needed)
I’ll keep you posted, write the (embassy lady, assumption) politely back, express my gratitude and reinforce my willingness to happily fill in any gaps the will have on a very short notice and I will als consider the shopping around option proposed (yet, I don’t know how a Swiss bank known to be rather compliancefetishistic and compliancecondordriven would re-act towards a “foreign” CLN :-D).
Many thanks again, keep it up and have a great day, best regards, AN
(Personally I think there should be a Brock branch in every country (apart maybe from the US, China, Eritrea, Russia, Belarus …)
On this opportunity I took the chance to think aloud in bracket and motivate the consular people to suggest the idea of a streamlined online renouncing process to the State Department to better make use of consular ressources elsewhere and to face the high demand in time of mass renounciations with an appropriate procedural response :-).
Let’s see whether this will lead to any improvements and changes (at least consular people should be motivated to suggest this idea to protect their scarce resources … yet, considering, the outrageous sillyness of the world created by their government in which we are living … I don’t know, whether, we should be super optimistic to expect any meaningful improvements to happen very soon).
Personally, I think btw. that Brocks, Brockers and friend should work on publishing a book depicting this silly world ) … (or at least trying to feed befriended media with the stories countering the narrative of IRS, compliance condors and their compliant assistants (e.g. banks, foreign governments)
Many thanks again, glad to have you and best regards and have a great day:-)
AN
@accidental nominal
You should try the Luxembourg embassy, I believe their wait times are much shorter.
You can drive there within a day from Switzerland.
Thank you very much for this hint, Heidi. Luxembourg seems manageable to (rather quickly) get to from Switzerland, indeed. I will perhaps give it a try and contact them to learn what their wait times are (and see whether they accept non-residents; although I still hope that I can step in if someone cancels his appointment in CH which seems rather probable according to the consulate …), Thank you again and have a nice evening, best regards an
It’s important for you to realize that there is no need for you to file any tax information after you renounce.
We are reasonably certain that the IRS has no capability or interest in chasing anyone who has never lived in the USA. They only seem to apply FATCA penalties to those miscreants that they have found by other means. You are unknown to them. Keep it that way. Good luck.
I just moved two new comments/questions by Accidental Nominal to the “How to Renounce/Relinquish” thread (with a link back to this thread) because discussing this matter is causing this thread to veer off topic. Going forward, please reply to Accidental Nominal about their case on the “How to Renounce/Relinquish” thread. Thanks.
Hi, I have been contentedly ignoring the need to relinquish or renounce US citizenship since coming to Canada in 1970. My credit union is unaware of my US birth. In 2010 I agreed to open a joint account with my daughter (a Canadian) with Lloyd’s Bank in London where her pay as a teacher was deposited and withdrawn from – only by her. Why I did this is too convoluted to explain here except to say it was somehow conditional to how she would be paid. She left London in 2012 with the understanding that she had closed the account and returned to Asia where she had previously been teaching.
Recently, however, I received a notice from Lloyd’s requiring me to complete a Self-Certification Form for Tax Residency. (I had to send a certified copy of my passport which lists my place of birth as the US to Lloyd’s when the account was opened). Among the information they want from me is my Tax Information Number and the answer to whether I am a US citizen. If I reply no to the citizen question they are asking for a CLN which I do not have nor can afford to obtain nor want to. In addition, they have included a threat for non-compliance with completing the form saying that they will have to report this to the “local tax authority” who will then share whatever information they have about me to tax authorities overseas.
As I said, I bank with a credit union here in Canada and they have no knowledge of my alleged US citizenship and I am concerned that providing this form will set off a chain reaction here eventually alerting my credit union and thus obliging them to comply with FATCA requirements which will subsequently include back tax filing and whatever else may be required. I have worked here as a public school teacher so it goes without saying that I will likely not be required to pay any tax but I’m told that it will certainly be difficult to complete any tax filing without professional help which I definitely cannot afford as a now retired teacher.
I am looking for any and all advice for what I see as several options:
a) complete the tax form for Lloyd’s and say I am NOT a US citizen and wait for the fallout when they find out I do not have a CLN
b) say I AM a US citizen and see a result similar to option a).
c) ignore this and wait to see if they get the ball rolling to report this
d) Wade through whatever quagmire necessary to close the Lloyd’s account forever and always
ANY advice or thoughts MUCH appreciated!
If I were in your situation, I’d withdraw the money out of that account and let Lloyd’s, the UK government, and the IRS go pound sand. Tell Lloyd’s to close the account. If they don’t, its their quagmire, not yours.
Assuming you are now a Canadian citizen living in Canada, you are not at risk. In the very unlikely event your credit union gets wind of this, tell them that you lost your US citizenship at the time you became a Canadian.
It’s really no big deal. Close the account and forget about it. There’s no quagmire.
Or deny you are a US citizen and see what happens, I would do that just for fun.
I have experienced your fear and confusion in a similar situation – a retired teacher, born in US and naturalized in Canada as an adult. I lived and worked in Canada for over 40 years, then someone alerted me to FATCA and taxes and all that. It took quite awhile for me to gather information and then make a decision about what to do. This site with its understanding and well-informed people helped me tremendously.
My basic position was that I wanted nothing to do with the US government. I don’t want to “jump through hoops” or provide personal information to a foreign government. I’m a Canadian living in Canada, leave me alone!
As part of my information gathering, I had a cross-border tax service prepare a trial US income tax form for me one year, and that showed I owe no US taxes. Since conditions were similar every year, the one year sample could be extrapolated, which showed me I never would or will owe taxes.
My estate does not have a high enough value to attract US taxes.
After becoming a Canadian citizen (prior to 2004), I did nothing to indicate that I believed I was a dual citizen. No tax form filing, no US passport, no voting in US elections. I began voting in Canadian Federal elections for the first time and got a Canadian passport. So that gave me or anyone dealing with my estate a line of defense should it ever be questioned.
When filling out bank account forms, I have been careful to use my Canadian citizenship card rather than my Canadian passport with my birthplace on it for ID. Most of my accounts were opened long enough ago that ID like a driver’s license was all that was required.
Some of my long-time banking personnel know where I was born. They quietly believe that I am a US citizen regardless of my relinquishment actions but that has not caused any problems. My family also is convinced that I am still a US citizen until I get official release from the US government. But that is not what the law said when I relinquished. Actually, family has been my biggest problem with all this. I’ve finally just told them to lay off. I put an affidavit with my will outlining my relinquishment actions and advising anyone working with my estate to not contact the US government.
After several years of dealing with this, I realized that, like a lot of things in life, to better understand we can follow the money. The US lawmakers enacted this situation but, except perhaps for a handful of the very rich, it generates no revenue for the US. The US officials tasked with carrying out the program know this and have little incentive to make it operate. They basically ignore it unless a potentially affected person brings their situation their attention. Then the officials are obliged to act.
Financial institutions also make no money on this. They are just trying to do what they must to comply with US regulations that effect them. They want to “check off the boxes” and people like us who deal with them can make it easier for them. Both of us do and reveal as little as possible.
The only people who make money are those who act on behalf of people trying to comply with the scheme. So be very careful of them.
I was worried and fearful, but now I am quite relaxed about it. I hope you get to that point soon.
@ Infatcauated
The best option is to immediately close the account, if that is possible in the circumstances.
You don’t fully explain your current status. Did you naturalize as a Canadian after you arrived in 1970, or were you a dual citizen from birth? If the former, you could argue that you relinquished your US citizenship when you became Canadian, but you aren’t willing to spend $2,350 to have that documented with a CLN.
When I say “argue” I don’t mean explain all that to the bank, but rather check “no” to US citizenship on their form and see what happens. Re-reading your post, it does sound like they are aware of your US birthplace if they are demanding a CLN. If not, you might be okay just saying no. (My experience with a German bank suggests that they do not always check. I indicated Canadian only when the FATCA/CRS query came along some years ago, and they never objected despite having seen my US place of birth on my Canadian passport and having the birthplace recorded in my customer data.)
If the worst happens, the UK bank reports you as an uncooperative US citizen, there is zero chance of this getting back to your Canadian credit union. That is not something you need to worry about. They would send a small amount of information to the IRS, where it will disappear, but nothing to CRA. And frankly, even if your US citizenship became known to your credit union, you would not be compelled to file US tax returns, as this is not required by FATCA.
Thanks to everyone here for the advice. Sounds like advice based on experience and that is what I have been searching for! I did fail to point out that I am a naturalized Canadian (1978) and have technically, as a public school teacher also worked for a “foreign” government (grounds for relinquishment).
Closing that stupid account has been a bit of a challenge in that Lloyds could be rebranded the Molasses in January bank for the speed at which they’re choosing to attend to that request, but it is allegedly somewhere in the works. (for the record, Fort Knox could learn a thing or two from them given their alleged claims of focus on security).
I have concluded, based on advice here to give them their damn form and cite NO as my answer to US citizenship. Will report fallout should any exist, but can do so, it appears, worry-free! Again – many thanks to all!
Yep, best thing to do is send back that form with a “no” and nothing else, while also closing the account. The bank can do what they want and it won’t affect you. If they ask, say that you lost your US citizenship in 1978 due to naturalization, and you can’t afford to buy a CLN to prove it.
Otherwise, continue to ignore your undocumented former US citizenship.