George has another excellent comment that must be posted. Here it is:
Its good to read of your efforts in educating others: (Report #1 AND Report #2 AND Report #3). Those in attendance will tell others and so forth.
I made a list of what is probably all the steps we have gone through on our own paths. I am sure there are differences but in general terms.
Journey, one step in front of the other.
1.) Decision to leave the homeland. Face possible concern and ridicule from friends and family in homeland.
2.) Apply for all the visas and other requirements to be a properly documented immigrant in your new land. Concern from homeland friends and family grows, they whisper about us.
3.) Spend years learning language, customs and become assimilated into your new home. Your allegiance is slowly transferred to your new home. Friends and family in the homeland think of you as the crazy relative locked up in the basement. They are somewhat embarrassed about us but figure we will come back saying what a mistake it was and how bad the health care system is and we ran away from the health care death panel.
4.) After a certain number of years you realize that you are no longer X but you have become Y. You fill out countless papers to be naturalised/registered as a new citizen. Christmas cards from the homeland are very light this year.
5.) The Big Day! Just like new immigrants to the USA are fully expected to become completely loyal to their new land, we/you do the same thing in our new land. Some of us in accordance with US Code as ordered changed by the US Supreme Court, intend that this action to be a relinquishing act.
Remaining proud to be an American, now proud to be a ______ Citizen, but no longer a US Citizen.
Or for others remaining proud to be an American, now proud to be a ______ Citizen, but no longer a US Citizen at least in respect to where you are living in accordance with the Master Nationality Act.
Christmas cards from the homeland grow in abundance because your homeland is where your heart is and that is where you are and your friends who are fellow citizens realize this. They no longer ask you if you are a tourist or when are you going home, didn’t you hate that. Or the question, are there things you miss?
6.) Carry about our lives in our home country. As a Citizen of X, living in X, I have only one citizenship recognized by Country X. You are calm, happy and at peace, probably the happiest you have ever been.
7.) At some point realize that our former country has established new laws or re-interpreted old ones that have absolutely no comparison to those in the countries of our sole allegiance or for some primary allegiance. Our newish countrymen look at us cross eyed when we explain what happened, they do not believe us.
8.) Panic, Fear, Health Problems
9.) Resolution. You realize that you are Canadian or French or _______, that you are not a US Citizen and have never acted like a US Citizen since becoming Canadian, French or German. Psychologically you are free at last, start sleeping again.
10.) Decision time. Do you appease those to the south (N/E/W)? For some it will make clear sense to get a CLN. For others it may look outright foolish to get a CLN. For some it will be a mixed bag.
11.) Final Sadness. All of us out of respect to the place we were raised in, or where we have family, or of a place we really never had ties but dreamed of it as that shining place on a hill, have great sadness that US Citizenship has become something that people want to get rid of like gum on a shoe. A place where when learning you might be a US Citizen is like a doctor telling you that you have a destructive disease. A place where you have become afraid to even visit again.
12.) Conclusion. Those with a CLN have some security but remain wondering if Congress or the Supreme Court will change the rules again and give them their citizenship back, something they do not want back. We have seen the rules changed too many times, fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.
Those without a CLN will wonder if their Country will support their Citizens of which you are an equal Citizens. A naturalised or registered citizen is equal to someone born in that country. Equal treatment under the law is only what we want.
Those that remain dual US in both their heart and actions? You know what they say being in the middle of the road? You become road kill unless you are very adept on your feet and can stay informed as to what Congress and agencies are doing every month.
The dream that you can carry a blue book and redbook, that you can vote for your MP and member of congress, that you can work in one country every other year, AND juggle the administrative burden associated with and not screw up, well I hate to say it but it is a dream. The plates will come down and break to pieces.
Canadian/Ireland, Yes it works.
Irish/French, Yes it works.
USA/_______, it only works one direction if you live in the homeland.
Now, we need another such post about such a journey for “Accidental Americans” — the next generation. We never meant to bring this upon our children!
Homelanders would read this and only see ‘traitors’ because they’re still caught up in the ‘Best most powerful country in the world’ crap and don’t see the US’ new place in the world struggling to keep the upward mobility dream strong that keeps the US together.
The retired guy’s words still ring in my ear a month ago in his Southern drawl. “Did yoooooou knooow thaaaat peeeeople arrre rrrrenooouncing their US citizenshippp for tax advantages.” My God.
Oh, did you hear on their news media going on and on about their big security presence for the Super Bowl game? I said to my wife, ‘Maybe they should look for the terr’ists under their beds and in their basements, and maybe, they should all sleep with their night lights on so they can all feel safe with their guns under their pillows.’ before I started laughing.
Oh! Oh! I know! They they should arm the football players, too! After all, if they’re already arming the teachers…..
It’s sad and funny both…
When I left the US at the age of 19 my parents didn’t make a big deal about it. Many years later I asked my mother why they seemed so nonchalant.
“We assumed you were going through a phase.”
Check your premises.
Natural Rights are just that. I don’t allow the “fictions” of imaginary lines on the ground, governments or nations to determine my personal choices.
Y’all are welcome to jump through flaming hoops and blow countless dollars on appeasing such fictions, I do not. I will not. Take a close look at the Earth as photographed from Space. See any borders? I don’t. They don’t exist. Nor do Nations, States, Counties, Cities or Towns.
If I want to engage “fiction,” A Song Of Ice And Fire is my preferred fiction, not the fiction of Nations.
I wish y’all well, but bowing to fictions is not in my nature, and I’ll share my expat experiences in defiance of such fictions.
The Boot-Strap Expat
Some interesting items from the US Department of State.
I think its very important for all of us to understand that nowhere is Dual Nationality mentioned in US law.
“U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one nationality or another. ”
Why is that important in our understanding? We know if you are in the USA and you do not have a CLN they are going to ignore your Canadianess or Frenchness or _________ .
Now but what are you to the United States when you are home in Canada? Does the US Government recognize you as a Canadian Citizen when you are in Canada? I think that is a question that a Canadian MP needs to ask through Canadian channels to US authorities.
IF the US Government does not recognize you as Canadian in Canada that will inflame your Government.
You could also cite the above that dual national is not mentioned in US law.
Are GeorgeIII, George3rd and George, one person, two or three?
Hey Brockers, riddle me this.
You have just committed a relinquishing act.
When does the US Department of State expect to hear anything from a former US Citizen?
Does the US Department of State have some kind of policy that says they expect you to show up quickly? Actually it appears they expect to hear from you possibly years later.
“When, as the result of an individual’s inquiry or an individual’s application for registration or a passport it comes to the attention of a U.S. consular officer that a U.S. national has performed an act made potentially expatriating by INA Sections 349(a)(1), 349(a)(2), 349(a)(3) or 349(a)(4) as described above, the consular officer will simply ask the applicant if he/she intended to relinquish U.S. nationality when performing the act. If the answer is no, the consular officer will certify that it was not the person’s intent to relinquish U.S. nationality and, consequently, find that the person has retained U.S. nationality.
Persons Who Wish to Relinquish U.S. Nationality
If the answer to the question regarding intent to relinquish nationality is yes, the person concerned will be asked to complete a questionnaire to ascertain his or her intent toward U.S. nationality. When the questionnaire is completed and the voluntary relinquishment statement is signed, the consular officer will proceed to prepare a Certificate of Loss of Nationality of the United States. The certificate will be forwarded to the Department of State for consideration and, if appropriate, approval.”
Yes, I agree, for a brand new relinquisher it is likely a very good idea to promptly get a CLN but the above seems to be a valid reference that the Department of State does not expect you to show up the next day. They actual expect it on a passport renewal or some other matter where “it comes to their attention.”
George is plain old George.
…that we’ve sourced several posts from.
Okay, then I think GeorgeIII and George3rd are probably the same person. That means we have two George persons. Got it! 🙂
The US Department of State warns as follows;
1.) U.S. citizens born in Eritrea, to Eritrean parents, or who in any other way appear to have Eritrean origins, are required by the Government of Eritrea to register with the Immigration and Nationality office in Asmara within seven business days of their entry into the country. The Eritrean government sometimes subjects U.S. citizens of Eritrean heritage to the same entry/exit requirements as Eritrean citizens.
2.) Eritrea has complicated citizenship laws and does not recognize renunciation of Eritrean citizenship.
3.) U.S. citizens born in Eritrea, or who otherwise are considered to have acquired Eritrean citizenship, may be subject to certain obligations, including being drafted into national service, regardless of the documents they present at entry.
4.) In some cases, U.S. citizens of dual nationality and Eritrean Lawful Permanent Residents of the United States have not been allowed to leave Eritrea as they have been drafted into national service.
5.) Eritrean dual nationals are required to pay a 2% income tax on overseas earnings to the Eritrean Government prior to being granted an exit visa.
Plus a few more.
Does this sound familiar?
George, I believe that the USG does acknowledge that you are a citizen of the country where you are residing and acknowledges that you must follow the laws of the country where you reside regardless of whether you are a citizen there or not. What they do, however, is reserve the right to make you file taxes – which they know you may not owe if there is a tax treaty – and to report specific financial accounts via FBAR even if these accounts our joint or you have only signatory authority and even if doing so violates privacy laws in the country where you reside. So it the latter case, yes USCship trumps.
Canada expects you to file taxes too unless you have specifically taken steps to become a non-resident for tax purposes and I would imagine there are Canadians who are ignoring that little detail but I doubt the Canadian govt will go on ignoring that for much longer given their interest in tracking down what is owed to them.
It seems that tax laws exist in their own little universe quite separate from other laws and given the current state of the world economy, we shouldn’t be surprised.
Fair or not (and I don’t think it is very), the reality of the moment is that it simply isn’t possible to be a dual if one of your nationalities is USC. Should Canada stand up and say so? That would be nice but Canada doesn’t have much recent history with being ballsy were the US is concerned, so count on that at your peril.
My mother took me to Canada when I was 12. I don’t know what path my life would have taken if she hadn’t, but I’m grateful to her that she did. I took the Canadian citizenship oath in my 30’s, but recently found out that because of changes in Canada’s Citizenship Act, I am a Canadian at birth through my Canadian born mother. After all this time I thought I was an immigrant to Canada, but really I was just coming home 🙂
“Those with a CLN have some security but remain wondering if Congress or the Supreme Court will change the rules again and give them their citizenship back, something they do not want back.”
That, at least, is impossible. Except at time of birth or adoption as a minor, and (in diminshingly few cases) upon marriage, international law forbids the attribution of nationality to a person without his consent or that of his parent or guardian. Rev. Rul. 75-357, PLR 8138071 acknowledges that with respect to US citizens who lost their nationality prior to Afroyim v. Rusk and Vance v. Terrazas and who did not thereafter avail themselves of an attribute of US nationality.
An interesting question is whether expatriation taxation is an obstacle to expatriation. Probably not: one can renounce and never pay the expatriation tax, or even become compliant as to prior taxes. Cross-border enforcement would depend on many things, including whether a mutual enforcement provision of a tax treaty applies, or whether the IRS or DoJ could argue that the failure to pay could be assimilated to common-law fraud or money-laundering.