“This is only the latest example of the absurdity of US extraterritorial demands – simultaneously, under FATCA and US CBT drawing a distinctively expansive EXTRAterritorial boundary around the duties and obligations foisted onto those it deems UStaxable persons ‘abroad’ worldwide – yet in the case of a global emergency it makes clear that it intends to respond only DOMESTICALLY – taking responsibility only for those residing within its actual territorial boundaries when a true test of the nation’s duty of care has arisen involving ALL those it claims as citizens/taxable persons globally.”
The US could have offered to release to Canada at least the same number of vaccine doses as it claims UStaxablepersons ‘abroad’ in Canada. Or refunded the equivalent cost to Canada and everywhere else it claims US taxable persons around the world.
The US could have offered to release to Canada at least the same number of vaccine doses as it claims UStaxablepersons ‘abroad’ in Canada. Or refunded the equivalent cost to Canada and everywhere else it claims US taxable persons around the world.
Shouldn’t those ‘abroad’ avoid assuming that the US has no responsibility for those ‘overseas’ and thus; ‘….mistaking the scope and extent of the sovereign power of the United States as a nation and its relations to its citizens and their relation to it’, since “… that power in its scope and extent, it was decided, is based on the presumption that government by its very nature benefits the citizen and his property wherever found”…… Cook vs. Tait, 1924 https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/265/47
As I said, the US is sending cash to its citizens abroad, while Canada is not. I see a high degree of consistency here, on the part of both governments, in terms of how they approach both taxation and extension of benefits.
@RH
If the US can claim you as a citzen and beholden to taxation , their benefits should be more than your ”highly consistent” . As for the stimulus cheques,the IRS has acknowledged sending 1.4 B$ to the dead and also stimulus to NRAs. They simply look for an SSN. and assume that you are a US citzen.
Since overseas ”americans” are considered taxable ,they should also receive the full benefits of being american .
@ Concerned Citizen,
I might be having email problems, so I wanted to let you know I got 2 e-mails from you (one arrived Monday and one today) and replied to them today. Please let me know here if you didn’t get them and I’ll re-send from another account. And thanks for the e-mails!
Q: How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
A: Exactly the same as the number of benefits McKenna hazily envisioned in Cook v. Tait.
McKenna never said expats should get the same list of benefits as homelanders.
McKenna specifically rendered his decision on his PRESUMPTION [emphasis is mine; the word is his] that citizenship [somehow] benefits the citizen and his[/her] property wherever found.
So go ahead and PRESUME how many angels can dance, and how many specific benefits there should to be.
From Cook v. Tait, the answer “none” is distinctly plausible as any other.
@Pacifica
Nothing received – you must be having problems. Nothing in any junk folders, but that would be very odd since we’ve successfully corresponded in the past.
@ Concerned CItizen,
I just re-sent them from another account.
@ Badger,
Please let me know if you didn’t get email from me too.
@Shovel;
No angels need be counted.
From the horse’s mouth:
“‘The administration’s focus is on ensuring that every American is vaccinated,’ Jen Psaki tells reporters”….
“…The White House spokesperson today ruled out sending vaccines to continental partners like Canada and Mexico, saying U.S. President Joe Biden is committed to getting every American vaccinated before sharing doses with other countries.
During a White House press briefing today, Jen Psaki was asked if Biden was considering sharing part of the U.S. COVID-19 vaccine supply with allies. “No,” she replied.
“The president has made clear that he is focused on ensuring that vaccines are accessible to every American. That is our focus,” she added….”….
I don’t see any caveats in those statements. No distinction made between “Americans” [US citizens] ‘abroad’ vs. those US resident.
Likewise, according to the US; EVERY AMERICAN is subject to US CBT – whether located outside or inside the US.
The US asserts that it has the right to demand the personal and financial information of every American, and first right to tax them in whatever manner the US government decides, wherever they may reside and no matter where in the world they actually generate and hold their income – solely based on inherited or birthplace (or naturalized) status as an American: “.. if you are a U.S. citizen or a resident alien living outside the United States, your worldwide income is subject to U.S. income tax, regardless of where you live.” https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/frequently-asked-questions-about-international-individual-tax-matters
“Taxpayers Living Abroad’
“If you are a U.S. citizen or resident alien, the rules for filing income, estate, and gift tax returns and paying estimated tax are generally the same whether you are in the United States or abroad. Your worldwide income is subject to U.S. income tax, regardless of where you reside.” https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/taxpayers-living-abroad
So, when will the US be “…ensuring that every American is vaccinated…” in Canada, Mexico, the UK and elsewhere – regardless of where they reside?
Those deemed “US citizens” outside the US are Americans when it comes to coerced information collection, taxation and penalties from afar, but not good enough to vaccinate – or provide vaccinations for in a pandemic from afar? What reciprocal obligation and duty of care does the US have towards those it deems citizens ‘abroad’? What is the nature and what are the boundaries of the social contract between the nation and its citizen taxpayers ‘abroad’? Are they territorial or extraterritorial?
Any conflict, absurdity or illogic or imbalance of the rights vs. obligations of US citizens – no matter where in the world they reside – is thrown into stark relief by this pandemic.
Taxes pay for services to taxpayers. My local, provincial, and federal taxes are paying for the services that will keep those deemed US citizens/US taxable persons in Canada alive during this global emergency. The US is not providing any services from afar to US taxable persons in Canada and elsewhere during this pandemic – yet, refuses to let US made vaccines leave the US for Canada and elsewhere until “every American” has been vaccinated. It will no doubt look for reporting and taxation of the COVID benefits provided to “taxable US persons” residing in Canada. Thus it seems logical to me that US has a responsibility to pony up equal Covid services to those it is providing to US residents, or pay host countries the equivalent in recognition of the services it cannot or won’t provide from afar – to ‘every American’ outside the US.
Best of luck with that. Write to your senators, explain the situation, and demand that the US government send you a home vaccination kit.
There is no consistency in how the US treats citizens abroad, there can’t be because they don’t live in the USA.
The consistency will arrive when the USA asks nothing and gives nothing to those long gone.
“Avoiding the possibility of such catastrophic effects as a decline in GDP, labour income, employment, a depreciation of the Canadian dollar and a lowering of the standard of living of Canadians, is certainly sufficiently pressing and substantial to justify any minimal limitation on rights (as a result of the provisions),” the submission says.”
Surprised that this hasn’t been posted here since it’s been run on a dozen or so Canadian websites for the last two weeks.
We are a great country glorious and free .
interesting submission. Total bullshit without evidence. I wonder if lying to the court is punishable.
At the very least, it should force them to lose their case.
From today’s NYTimes “Even when the I.R.S. detects the most obvious forms of tax noncompliance among the wealthy, it is stretched too thin to follow up adequately. A Treasury Inspector General for Tax Administration report published last year found the I.R.S. had failed to follow up with more than 369,000 high-income households that simply did not file a tax return in prior years.” and
“Many recent high-profile prosecutions for tax evasion — like those of Paul Manafort, Michael Cohen and Michael Avenatti — occurred only because federal investigators were investigating them for other reasons.”
The IRS is a paper tiger if you don’t leap into their cage.
Your broader point is entirely valid, but as I understand it, FATCA data is collected and shipped off to IRS; the records within are not associated with individual CRA accounts, which is what was potentially compromised. Per the CBC article, it appears that CRA was not itself breached, but rather individual login credentials were possibly obtained by phishing scams or other external means. It’s actually fairly encouraging that they’d be proactive enough to kill 800,000 logins during tax season.
Is it better that the banks are held responsible for submitting personal tax info to the IRS or for the government to do so ? in our case(Canada) the banks simply dump everything on the CRA which simply passes it on to the IRS carte blanche. Wouldn’ t this issue be more winnable than simply hanging you hat on constitutional issues,although they are also important.
Are other countries more thorough in how much information they submit ? I doubt that they could be worse even thought US persons may represent a token minority,unlike Canada.
This is a snippet from an article over at Tax Connections written from the USA’s point of view, complaining about Italy proposing a Digital Services Tax (DST) which the USA thinks discriminates against US companies. I just can’t believe the accuracy of this statement if “Italy” is replaced with “USA” and “DST” is replaced with “FATCA.” (and maybe another word or two could be adjusted).
……the U.S. Trade Representative initiated an investigation of Italy’s DST under section 302(b)(1)(A) of the Trade Act ……
Italy’s DST is unreasonable because it is inconsistent with prevailing international tax principles. Italy’s DST applies to revenue rather than income; Italy’s DST applies to revenues unconnected to a physical presence in Italy; Italy’s DST is extraterritorial; and Italy’s DST results in double taxation. As such, the DST is unreasonable as it deviates from the prevailing tax principles of international corporate taxation.
Those of you following political events in the U.S. might have noted that components of Mr. Biden’s spending initiative includes enhanced enforcement by the IRS. This includes the hiring of thousands of new agents ostensibly to find the money for Biden’s one trillion dollar spending plans. I would doubt that FATCA is going anywhere except possibly morphing into an even bigger nightmare.
I disagree. For the US government, there’s simply no ROI in going after (non-billionaire) non-residents who aren’t filing. Very difficult to obtain information beyond limited FATCA data, quite often nothing would be owed anyway, and in any case it’s borderline impossible to collect. Chasing dual citizens without US assets is absolutely not worth their time when compared to the easy pickings in the US itself, no matter how many new IRS employees they hire.
The whole “America is broke an needs to pay off it debts so it’s coming after Americans around the globe” schtick is as wrong now as it was ten years ago. Dual citizens will happily refuse to file until the end of their days, and suffer no ill consequences.
FATCA is a problem in some countries (not Canada if one is willing to lie to one’s bank) but mostly a problem of unintended consequences – financial institutions overreacting and restricting services offered to anyone who can’t safely conceal US person status.
In my post above, one sentence should have read;
“This is only the latest example of the absurdity of US extraterritorial demands – simultaneously, under FATCA and US CBT drawing a distinctively expansive EXTRAterritorial boundary around the duties and obligations foisted onto those it deems UStaxable persons ‘abroad’ worldwide – yet in the case of a global emergency it makes clear that it intends to respond only DOMESTICALLY – taking responsibility only for those residing within its actual territorial boundaries when a true test of the nation’s duty of care has arisen involving ALL those it claims as citizens/taxable persons globally.”
The US could have offered to release to Canada at least the same number of vaccine doses as it claims UStaxablepersons ‘abroad’ in Canada. Or refunded the equivalent cost to Canada and everywhere else it claims US taxable persons around the world.
The US could have offered to release to Canada at least the same number of vaccine doses as it claims UStaxablepersons ‘abroad’ in Canada. Or refunded the equivalent cost to Canada and everywhere else it claims US taxable persons around the world.
Shouldn’t those ‘abroad’ avoid assuming that the US has no responsibility for those ‘overseas’ and thus; ‘….mistaking the scope and extent of the sovereign power of the United States as a nation and its relations to its citizens and their relation to it’, since “… that power in its scope and extent, it was decided, is based on the presumption that government by its very nature benefits the citizen and his property wherever found”…… Cook vs. Tait, 1924 https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/265/47
As I said, the US is sending cash to its citizens abroad, while Canada is not. I see a high degree of consistency here, on the part of both governments, in terms of how they approach both taxation and extension of benefits.
@RH
If the US can claim you as a citzen and beholden to taxation , their benefits should be more than your ”highly consistent” . As for the stimulus cheques,the IRS has acknowledged sending 1.4 B$ to the dead and also stimulus to NRAs. They simply look for an SSN. and assume that you are a US citzen.
Since overseas ”americans” are considered taxable ,they should also receive the full benefits of being american .
@ Concerned Citizen,
I might be having email problems, so I wanted to let you know I got 2 e-mails from you (one arrived Monday and one today) and replied to them today. Please let me know here if you didn’t get them and I’ll re-send from another account. And thanks for the e-mails!
Q: How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
A: Exactly the same as the number of benefits McKenna hazily envisioned in Cook v. Tait.
McKenna never said expats should get the same list of benefits as homelanders.
McKenna specifically rendered his decision on his PRESUMPTION [emphasis is mine; the word is his] that citizenship [somehow] benefits the citizen and his[/her] property wherever found.
So go ahead and PRESUME how many angels can dance, and how many specific benefits there should to be.
From Cook v. Tait, the answer “none” is distinctly plausible as any other.
@Pacifica
Nothing received – you must be having problems. Nothing in any junk folders, but that would be very odd since we’ve successfully corresponded in the past.
@ Concerned CItizen,
I just re-sent them from another account.
@ Badger,
Please let me know if you didn’t get email from me too.
@Shovel;
No angels need be counted.
From the horse’s mouth:
“‘The administration’s focus is on ensuring that every American is vaccinated,’ Jen Psaki tells reporters”….
“…The White House spokesperson today ruled out sending vaccines to continental partners like Canada and Mexico, saying U.S. President Joe Biden is committed to getting every American vaccinated before sharing doses with other countries.
During a White House press briefing today, Jen Psaki was asked if Biden was considering sharing part of the U.S. COVID-19 vaccine supply with allies. “No,” she replied.
“The president has made clear that he is focused on ensuring that vaccines are accessible to every American. That is our focus,” she added….”….
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/biden-vaccine-help-canada-mexico-1.5932176
EVERY AMERICAN.
I don’t see any caveats in those statements. No distinction made between “Americans” [US citizens] ‘abroad’ vs. those US resident.
Likewise, according to the US; EVERY AMERICAN is subject to US CBT – whether located outside or inside the US.
The US asserts that it has the right to demand the personal and financial information of every American, and first right to tax them in whatever manner the US government decides, wherever they may reside and no matter where in the world they actually generate and hold their income – solely based on inherited or birthplace (or naturalized) status as an American: “.. if you are a U.S. citizen or a resident alien living outside the United States, your worldwide income is subject to U.S. income tax, regardless of where you live.” https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/frequently-asked-questions-about-international-individual-tax-matters
“Taxpayers Living Abroad’
“If you are a U.S. citizen or resident alien, the rules for filing income, estate, and gift tax returns and paying estimated tax are generally the same whether you are in the United States or abroad. Your worldwide income is subject to U.S. income tax, regardless of where you reside.” https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/taxpayers-living-abroad
So, when will the US be “…ensuring that every American is vaccinated…” in Canada, Mexico, the UK and elsewhere – regardless of where they reside?
Those deemed “US citizens” outside the US are Americans when it comes to coerced information collection, taxation and penalties from afar, but not good enough to vaccinate – or provide vaccinations for in a pandemic from afar? What reciprocal obligation and duty of care does the US have towards those it deems citizens ‘abroad’? What is the nature and what are the boundaries of the social contract between the nation and its citizen taxpayers ‘abroad’? Are they territorial or extraterritorial?
Any conflict, absurdity or illogic or imbalance of the rights vs. obligations of US citizens – no matter where in the world they reside – is thrown into stark relief by this pandemic.
Taxes pay for services to taxpayers. My local, provincial, and federal taxes are paying for the services that will keep those deemed US citizens/US taxable persons in Canada alive during this global emergency. The US is not providing any services from afar to US taxable persons in Canada and elsewhere during this pandemic – yet, refuses to let US made vaccines leave the US for Canada and elsewhere until “every American” has been vaccinated. It will no doubt look for reporting and taxation of the COVID benefits provided to “taxable US persons” residing in Canada. Thus it seems logical to me that US has a responsibility to pony up equal Covid services to those it is providing to US residents, or pay host countries the equivalent in recognition of the services it cannot or won’t provide from afar – to ‘every American’ outside the US.
Best of luck with that. Write to your senators, explain the situation, and demand that the US government send you a home vaccination kit.
There is no consistency in how the US treats citizens abroad, there can’t be because they don’t live in the USA.
The consistency will arrive when the USA asks nothing and gives nothing to those long gone.
https://www.ctvnews.ca/business/sending-bank-customer-info-to-u-s-avoided-potentially-catastrophic-effects-canada-1.5330831
“Avoiding the possibility of such catastrophic effects as a decline in GDP, labour income, employment, a depreciation of the Canadian dollar and a lowering of the standard of living of Canadians, is certainly sufficiently pressing and substantial to justify any minimal limitation on rights (as a result of the provisions),” the submission says.”
Surprised that this hasn’t been posted here since it’s been run on a dozen or so Canadian websites for the last two weeks.
We are a great country glorious and free .
interesting submission. Total bullshit without evidence. I wonder if lying to the court is punishable.
At the very least, it should force them to lose their case.
From today’s NYTimes “Even when the I.R.S. detects the most obvious forms of tax noncompliance among the wealthy, it is stretched too thin to follow up adequately. A Treasury Inspector General for Tax Administration report published last year found the I.R.S. had failed to follow up with more than 369,000 high-income households that simply did not file a tax return in prior years.” and
“Many recent high-profile prosecutions for tax evasion — like those of Paul Manafort, Michael Cohen and Michael Avenatti — occurred only because federal investigators were investigating them for other reasons.”
The IRS is a paper tiger if you don’t leap into their cage.
The CRA’s harvest of unnecessary personal data is especially disturbing given that they are not able to keep it safe: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/cra-accounts-locked-1.5947714
@Jenny
Your broader point is entirely valid, but as I understand it, FATCA data is collected and shipped off to IRS; the records within are not associated with individual CRA accounts, which is what was potentially compromised. Per the CBC article, it appears that CRA was not itself breached, but rather individual login credentials were possibly obtained by phishing scams or other external means. It’s actually fairly encouraging that they’d be proactive enough to kill 800,000 logins during tax season.
Is it better that the banks are held responsible for submitting personal tax info to the IRS or for the government to do so ? in our case(Canada) the banks simply dump everything on the CRA which simply passes it on to the IRS carte blanche. Wouldn’ t this issue be more winnable than simply hanging you hat on constitutional issues,although they are also important.
Are other countries more thorough in how much information they submit ? I doubt that they could be worse even thought US persons may represent a token minority,unlike Canada.
This is a snippet from an article over at Tax Connections written from the USA’s point of view, complaining about Italy proposing a Digital Services Tax (DST) which the USA thinks discriminates against US companies. I just can’t believe the accuracy of this statement if “Italy” is replaced with “USA” and “DST” is replaced with “FATCA.” (and maybe another word or two could be adjusted).
……the U.S. Trade Representative initiated an investigation of Italy’s DST under section 302(b)(1)(A) of the Trade Act ……
Italy’s DST is unreasonable because it is inconsistent with prevailing international tax principles. Italy’s DST applies to revenue rather than income; Italy’s DST applies to revenues unconnected to a physical presence in Italy; Italy’s DST is extraterritorial; and Italy’s DST results in double taxation. As such, the DST is unreasonable as it deviates from the prevailing tax principles of international corporate taxation.
The United States of truly epic hypocrisy.
https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/detroit/2021/07/29/carl-levin-dies/7983742002/
FATCA founder dead at 87.
Those of you following political events in the U.S. might have noted that components of Mr. Biden’s spending initiative includes enhanced enforcement by the IRS. This includes the hiring of thousands of new agents ostensibly to find the money for Biden’s one trillion dollar spending plans. I would doubt that FATCA is going anywhere except possibly morphing into an even bigger nightmare.
I disagree. For the US government, there’s simply no ROI in going after (non-billionaire) non-residents who aren’t filing. Very difficult to obtain information beyond limited FATCA data, quite often nothing would be owed anyway, and in any case it’s borderline impossible to collect. Chasing dual citizens without US assets is absolutely not worth their time when compared to the easy pickings in the US itself, no matter how many new IRS employees they hire.
The whole “America is broke an needs to pay off it debts so it’s coming after Americans around the globe” schtick is as wrong now as it was ten years ago. Dual citizens will happily refuse to file until the end of their days, and suffer no ill consequences.
FATCA is a problem in some countries (not Canada if one is willing to lie to one’s bank) but mostly a problem of unintended consequences – financial institutions overreacting and restricting services offered to anyone who can’t safely conceal US person status.