The Atlantic magazine, read widely by progressives on the East Coast, has a good article about the consequences of the recent announcement that Germany will be signing (has signed) a FATCA IGA.
The title is:
The Unintended Consequences of Cracking Down on Tax Dodgers Abroad
A regulation makes banks report foreign accounts to the IRS, but some are finding loopholes in the law aimed at closing loopholes.
This article was first posted by SwissPinoy here, and there has been some subsequent discussion and comments around this article that needs more attention and comments. I encourage Brockers to post on The Atlantic because, frankly, you need to engage the progressives where they live and read. I, for one, am going to paste it on Sven Giebold‘s web page, where he doesn’t let comments out of moderation, unless they come from Victoria… 🙂
Comments regarding this article are included below for easier reference…
Here is a thought in this wonderful article in the press today:
Will America’s nearly 100,000 expats living in Germany challenge FATCA in court? It’s too soon to tell.
But experts say they might have a very good case.
The Unintended Consequences of Cracking Down on Tax Dodgers Abroad
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@SwissPinoy…
That is a great break through for a Progressive magazine like The Atlantic. Thanks for drawing my attention to it. We need to spread this one around, as Progressive will probably NOT read “The Daily Caller” if it published a similar story.
I just sent this off to James Fallows of the Atlantic, that wrote the FATCA trilogy about a year and a half ago…
James…
I assume you saw this today? Just for your reference file should you return to the FATCA subject someday. Awareness is growing even in progressive circles, that good intentions have bad consequences.
The Unintended Consequences of Cracking Down on Tax Dodgers Abroad
A regulation makes banks report foreign accounts to the IRS, but some are finding loopholes in the law aimed at closing loopholes.
One of the Major things this report didn’t address about the Unintended consequences, is that Treasury and the Obama administration, via the 2014 budget, page 202, intend to impose the same reporting requirements onto the US financial Institutions via a request for more regulatory authority. They have promised reciprocity in the FATCA IGAs under the “What is good for the goose is good for the gander?” I call it a domestic FATCA or DATCA. But, they have no such authority to do that , YET! Do you think Harry Reid and Joe Biden will give up Nevada and Delaware beneficial ownership opacity for the greater good in a FATCA reciprocity deal?
Treasury seems to think they will. From a recent EU Parliament FATCA public hearing.
Transcript of part of the final comments made by Treasury’s Robert Stack…
And finally on reciprocity, we would simply point out that under our IGAs that are reciprocal, the IRS agrees to exchange information on interest, dividends and other income that is already collect, which is substantial and in some cases more extensive than what has to be, uh, reported under FATCA.
The US recognizes the importance of reaching equivalent levels of exchange, uh, under all our law, that we are getting from other jurisdictions. And the administration has included in its budget proposal a provision that would permit U.S. Financial Institutions to make such equivalent exchanges.
Under the U.S. political system, uh, different from some Parliamentary systems, we need to work that through Congress but we are um, we are committed to doing that. Once we’ve done that, to go to the question of beneficial ownership in Delaware, once we have equivalent levels of exchange, we would expect our own financial institutions would be required to look through entities and report on individuals just as non U.S. institutions are required to do under our IGA
I have the entire transcript attached…
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@swisspinoy, that’s a great article. This in particular;
“….Data protection experts believe there exists an inherent conflict between FATCA and data protection laws in Germany– laws which protect foreigners living in Germany just as they do German citizens.
FATCA could potentially violate an individual’s right to informational self-determination, a right enshrined in the German constitution.
Will America’s nearly 100,000 expats living in Germany challenge FATCA in court? It’s too soon to tell.
But experts say they might have a very good case.”
This phrase stood out for me “… laws which protect foreigners living in Germany just as they do German citizens..”
This is what should be the case for permanent residents in Canada – on the same basis as should be available for Canadian citizens. I guess we’ll see.
@JustMe, how brilliant to have sent on that EP FATCA hearing information on re Stack’s comments on US ‘reciprocity’. Not many US homelanders would have been following the EP’s moves on this, and Sophie in’t Veld’s pursuit of transparency and documents on FATCA talks and negotiations behind the scenes. Therefore US homelanders – and perhaps US banks do not know exactly what the US, through people like Stack, are offering the rest of the world without telling the US public what they are committing to. If this was all above board, they wouldn’t have to hide it – from all those affected, the citizens of the countries where the IGAs are being negotiated, AND THE US PUBLIC and Congress.
FATCA stinks. If you have to do it behind the woodshed, how likely is it to be a true public good in a democracy?
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June 6, 2013 at 12:21 am
Thought I would take another whack at Sven…borrowing liberally from some comments here.. I posted this that will never see the light of day, but he or some staff will have to read it.
Dear Sven,
I know you are not letting my previous comment out of moderation. Nor will you let this one either. That is your prerogative. However, I must say, it doesn’t show much courage. While the mission of my first message was not to berate you publicly, I am very disappointed in your unwillingness to engage in discussion with those who disagree with your position. I had hoped that you would rise to the challenge of showing the same communication transparency you want every person in the world to have on their financial transactions and tax payments.
Transparency for us, and obstruction and opaqueness for you, I guess.
I must say, your failure to address forthrightly the questions that Victoria raises speaks volumes about the political positions and moral standing of the Greens, whom you represent. I had expected better.
I thought you might be interested in an article published in an U.S. east coast Liberal magazine, The Atlantic. Some Progressives, that you would naturally align with, seem to be willing to look the consequences of FATCA issues more clearly than you.
Title: The Unintended Consequences of Cracking Down on Tax Dodgers Abroad
I think you need to do some real soul searching on your willingness to throw so many Europeans under the bus in pursuit of your idealistic goal “in your mind” of some grand global automatic exchange that is NOT going to stop offshore tax evasion by the very rich. They are laughing at you. By the time you get this all set up, and all of us innocent and collateral fodder enslaved, handed over to the US for processing, the rich will have already found other means to avoid your clutches. You might not like it, I might not like it, but that is the reality. Your cure is worse than the disease, as it condemns all to the same medicine regardless of their symptoms.
Frankly, given the prospects of what this means for an Orwellian world of your construct, I would rather live with 10% tax evaders, and 90% freemen, than your vision of 100% tax compliance or full enslavement to your demands and visions of “tax justice” via some global GATCA. If that doesn’t work, and it won’t, what next? What will be enough for you? Frankly, your position and what it means for a Big DATA total financial surveillance future, scares the hell out of me.
is the US really a democracy?
elections for everything
institutions accountable to the people
a constitution protecting the rights of citizens
The Soviet Union had all of these, it was a dictatorship
Like the Soviet Union laws are created by stealth and without full examination by the congress
Who can forget a smiling Nancy Pelosi holding a copy of the Affordability Care Act and saying
you have to pass it to learn of the bills content. Is that not backwards to the way things should be done.
Consider DHS and border enforcement
at first searches at the border, expanded to within a 100 miles of the border or coast, then to within 100 miles of a port of entry (St. Louis, Denver and so forth) then empowerment of partners (to boarding agent that impressed Boris Johnson into US servitude) lastly joint checkpoints state police. Where is the US border? anywhere DHS parks one of their vehicles!
Protection from double jeopardy has been limited stacking charges, one crime 20 complaints, with so many charges the accused must be guilty of something.
Federalization of everything also reduces protection from double jeopardy having parallel charges to be filed at state and federal courts.
This also impacts the separation of powers between the federal and state governments. through legislation and regulations the ability of state and local officials to act for their citizens is reduced.
All local plans and proposals need to pass federally mandated sniff tests
Many laws does not indicate a just society, it provides the state with the ability to selectively apply them against its opponents or people it demonizes. The IRS treatment of tea party groups and expats are prime examples.
Don’t worry your pretty little head about it…
@Mark…
Thanks, my pretty little head does feel better.. 🙂
@Patricia
“What’s the crime asks the defendant to the prosecutor?” “Oh, don’t you worry about it, with our laws and regs, that is just a minor consideration. We can always find one!”
I wrote this years ago about ECHELON (the 5 eyes — USA, UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand) but it fits in fairly well I think with the latest NSA revelations.
Surveillance Song
— A song based on Allan Sherman’s “Hello Muddah, Hello Faddah (A Letter from Camp)”, set to the music of Ponchielli’s “Dance of the Hours” from “La Geoconda”.
RING … RING … You have reached ECHELON. All of our agents are busy at the moment. Please leave a message after the tone. BEEP
Hello Sister .. hello Brother
You note each word .. that I utter.
Is this for your .. entertainment
Or are you making lists up for detainment?
Now I don’t want .. this to scare you
But you do know .. I’m aware you
Listen to my .. conversations
Which just gives me tons and tons of reservations.
I thought Orwell .. and his fiction
Were too scary .. for prediction
But Big Brother .. lurks in phone lines
And I long for all the privacy of old times.
You insist on .. constant spying
Say it’s needed .. but you’re lying.
You are making .. life a prison
Where to everything I say you peeps will listen.
Set me free, Big Sister, Brother.
Set me free, you make me shudder.
Don’t keep me under surveillance where
My words cannot be freely shared.
Set me free.
I promise I will not make bombs
Or even make up protest songs.
Oh please don’t listen in.
Eavesdropping is a sin.
Darling Sister .. dearest Brother
I’m as faultless .. as your mother.
Won’t you take me .. off your spy list?
My dull conversations surely will not be missed.
Wait a minute .. what is happ’ning?
Guys are aiming .. guys are threat’ning.
Now they’re stomping .. down the passage.
Sister, Brother, kindly disregard this message!
CLUNK (a hasty hang-up) … DIAL TONE
@Em…
You are really clever with your rhyming…
We should just have a separate thread devoted to your looney tunes! 🙂
Thanks for the chuckle…
mvh
Oh, Em, your contributions here are DELIGHTFUL!!! Thanks, once again.
@Em
Thank you for saving that one for the right time. Very good.
Thanks for the thanks. I wasn’t sure if anyone would even remember that tune.
@Em
Too well, I’m afraid 🙂
Giegold has still not spoken …
http://www.sven-giegold.de/2013/briefing-fatca-and-data-protection/#comment-208168
How does it feel to be collateral damage, folks?
@noname…
So much for the promise of transparency, eh? I guess it takes a time to decide how transparent you want to be!
Maybe at the root of his obstinance is a real disdain for any American who’d choose to live anywhere but the US of A.
Obama said “nobody is listening to your phonecalls”. It’s true! Ever tried phoning the White House or a congress critter or the IRS? (Not my own thought — found it today in my elsewhere reading.)
good one Em
@Em, that made me laugh. And they don’t answer mail either. And if they do answer an e-mail, the answer has nothing at all to do with the question we raised.
Oh, boy. Is this another example of “Is it hot in here or am I lying?” David Jacobson, U.S. Envoy To Canada, Says His Nation Isn’t Spying On Us
“David Jacobson has always stressed his desire to bring Americans and Canadians closer, to make them more familiar with each other.”
from http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/06/17/david-jacobson-nsa-spying-canada_n_3455667.html?utm_hp_ref=canada-politics
Right, we’re great ‘friends’ just as long as there’s something in it for the US, his cronies and his master.
We expats obviously misunderstood FATCA, FBARs and US extraterritorial taxation – it was really meant to bring us together in a big way. Having Homeland Security spying on our data and communications without a warrant or just cause, and the US Treasury and IRS rifling our pockets and bank accounts exceeds mere ‘familiarity’ – now we’re truly up close and personal.
Like a gang of thugs gets ‘familiar’ with their victims, the contents of their wallets and their person. That is the kind of intimacy we’re experiencing from the US.
Jacobson and his buddies have caused us to study hard and ponder deeply how to avoid and divorce the US for good – that’s the real measure of how successful he and other US representatives have been with achieving his ‘desire’ to bring us ‘closer’. Ask any ‘Canadian Grandma’ with unwanted ‘US taxable person’ status just how much closer the relationship is now.
“The United States government respects privacy, they respect individual liberties,” Jacobson said.
What a disingenuous hypocritical statement from someone who knows exactly what the US has been up to – much more than the US or Canadian public is allowed to know.
We see the respect for privacy and ‘individual liberties’ – embodied in the forcible reporting on the non-US bank accounts and assets belonging to our non-US spouses, employers, voluntary organizations and other non-US owners of accounts and assets whereever one of us has an even contingent future ability to sign, co-sign, etc. ? Where is the respect for the privacy of all those NON-US people outside the US? Whose only connection to the US is us? Where is the respect for our individual liberties?
And the extortionate FBAR – with draconian and confiscatory terms – empowered by the Bank Secrecy law meant for criminals – but applied to all of us without any cause – other than that we and our local legal accounts are located outside the US – where we live and may have been born. What a flimsy pretext for search and seizure.
“Quite frankly, these are concepts that in large measure were invented in my country. We care very much about them. I think the American people and the Canadian people can take some comfort in that.”
What hubris. Does Jacobson think we’re stupid? Even US homelanders can see the conflicts between what the US espouses and what it actually does. Here are only a few examples http://www.aclu.org/
@calgary411
Here is the CTV interview that story was based upon, I would guess…
http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/american-ambassador-says-u-s-is-not-spying-on-canadians-1.1329420
As far as I know Canada government is spying on Canadians or says Vaughn Palmer of the Vancouver Sun who has a segment on KUOW every week. That is where I get my synopsis on Canada news…
Here is what he was saying about Canadian Government Spying on Canadians…
Starts within the first minute and total segment on Canada runs about 13 minutes…
http://www.kuow.org/post/summer-movies-console-wars-and-news-canada
Three weeks have passed, so time for a follow up to Sven… I just sent this email tonight….
Dear Ms Van Megen,
It has now been over 3 weeks since you were so kind to write me and let me know that ….
“Just a quick reply: We do of course intend to publish your comments. The commenting function would not be of use otherwise of course. We don’t believe in censorship. We have to moderate the comments because we are suffering from a lot of Spam on the blog.
I hope we can publish your and others’ comments and questions with some answers before the end of the week. This is a pressing topic and we are happy to discuss it with you.
Thanks for your patience.”
As of Jun 29, in checking back onto your blog web site where I had asked about your position on FATCA, I see that no further comments have been cleared out of moderation. With due respect, I have to question your statements about not believing in censorship. We are several weeks beyond your “hope to publish before the end of the week.”
I would appreciate understanding what is causing this additional delay.
Maybe the recent news on NSA spying on the EU make you uncomfortable? Maybe you would really not like to discuss FATCA now in light of U.S Government MEGA DATA collection and spying on EU citizens? A history like the Stasi as discussed in the McClatchy news story, certainly must color your views on this subject.
It seems to me, that U.S. Hubris and NSA spying does make your support of FATCA, in itself another BIG DATA collection effort on EU Citizens who the U.S. asserts dominance over for tax purposes, more untenable without major revamping. This must place you in the uncomfortable position of being willing and complicit participants in U.S. EU spying and data collection efforts in their Global Total Awareness Program (GTAP). Once they get their FATCA data, they will have it ALL, including all of YOUR Citizen’s DATA!
Please advise if you have given your enthusiastic FATCA support any additional reconsideration, and please, in the spirit of “Transparency” and “fairness” and “Tax justice”, allow comments out of moderation for more “open” discussion and debate.
Thank you
Sincerely yours
I got this auto response…
Thank you for your message. I’m currently out of office and will respond to your email Tuesday 2nd July. For any urgent inquiries please contact sven.giegold@ep.europa.eu or 003222845369.
Best wishes,
Florian van Megen
@JustMe
Well done! As a EU citizen I am eagerly awaiting the outcome of your follow-up email to Mr. G
It’ll be interesting to see what Florian and Sven have to say now, if anything at all. Oh, by the way, Florian is a masculine name.
@notamused
Well, that will piss him off then… LOL Thanks for pointing out my ignorance! I will keep that in mind for future communication, which I assume will be none!
This new article from the guardian should be stirring them up…
EU demands clarification over US spying claims
European parliament president ‘deeply worried and shocked’ by claims published in Der Spiegel that US bugged EU offices
Then there is also this argument that Plato made to me and I repeat here….