Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
Thank you so much for the phone numbers and the email address. I would be more than willing to go to Ottawa to view my employee file. I just hope they still have it – I only worked for the govt for one year in 1988/1989.
I’ll keep you posted!!
I read on Library and Archives’ website that they keep personal records for 80 years and in some
particular cases even longer. I was overjoyed when they told me they had found my Oath of Allegiance
in there from way back in 1972.
Hope you find what you need.
the ones I know of are interested in being able to apply for jobs within the EU, mainly Germany and surrounding countries. They have technical degrees from the US.
discussion about working for government…I worked for CN Rail when it was government owned. Is that considered working for the government?. Probably not but I thought I would ask.
Also, interesting conversation this morning I had with a friend in my senior club I called her to tell her what I was bringing to the seniors xmas party this Sunday. She was the one who asked me about FATCA. I have talked about this often enough and got rebuffs and ignored and told nothing to worry about. Now it seems she is realizing that yes there is something happening. She has been here 25 years as a permanent resident, married and widowed to a Canadian man. She brought up her 12 year old daughter now 39 to Canada when she married. Her son stayed behind in USA. Both she and her daughter are just permanent residents. She said she could not afford the fee to become a Canadian.
nor her daughter.
My friend knows many other Americans living in Canada that live around here. They are asking questions. There is a lot of misinformation out there that they have. My friend went to her bank recently and spoke to her adviser , not a bank teller. Could be a manager. This adviser told her not to worry as they are just after the big tax evaders. and the bank is not doing anything and there is nothing in the bank about FATCA. I told her bank person to check the bank website for their FATCA information page.
I asked my friend if she spoke to her MP..She did not…I told her the more people who call or write their MP the better it is . My friend also asked me to bring the petition in. She can sign it, eh? not being a Citizen? So slowly the word is spreading and now maybe being paid attention to. She like many others do not have internet.
I will be bringing copies of the FATCA Fact sheet, the petition (should I still be collecting them?) and also the Patricia letter to Ways and Means Committee. . That is a rude awaking letter . Any other suggestions. I don’t want to dwell on this as it is a xmas dinner. But I thought I might tell her I can be available for calls and questions when those that want to know things . but most important to call her MP. And to ask why t here is nothing on his website about FATCA.
@allou, well I hope they’re also working on learning German, French, etc. Yes, English is used in many international companies, but there are a lot of EU nationals who also speak English as well as the local ones who’ll be competing for those jobs. Depending on the degree and what area they want to get into, they may find themselves at a disadvantage without speaking anything other than English. They may also have to get their degrees recognised locally while EU nationals who’ve studied in the EU find it much easier to do this. They may even need to do extra study/training. I’m basing this on how Switzerland works so it could be different in the EU, but it’s something they’d need to investigate. Plus understanding the basics of life – rental contracts, food, bills, official documents, etc – is very difficult without local language skills.
If any of them are truly serious about it, then there’s a series of books they should consider getting, depending on which country they’re looking at. They’re called “Living and Working In …”. They cover most of Europe so France, Germany, Switzerland, etc. They’re updated annually and are full of useful info on what happens before you move and after. They can be ordered from a local bookshop or via the Internet. I found the “Living and Working in Switzerland” book very useful before we moved here.
Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you!!! I sent off my urgent email last night to the email address that you provided – and I received my documents today via email – I referenced my fax and explained the situation that I was/am in. I can’t believe it. I am so relieved. Now all I have to do is make an appointment with the US Embassy in Toronto.
Looking for clarification:
There have been a number of posts confirming past employment with the Federal or Provincial governments, that require an oath as a condition of employment, qualifying for past relinquishment. I am curious why government employment without having sworn an oath does not qualify. Under Section 1481 of the INA-Loss of Nationality 4(A) requires one to be a national to have the government job and does not mention an oath. 4(B) mentions an oath as a condition of employment.
It would seem an oath is not necessarily required. Have I missed something in my interpretation?
As well, “political subdivision thereof” would include local government and crown corporations, depending on which one you work(ed) for they may or may not require an oath.
4 (A) accepting, serving in, or performing the duties of any office, post,
or employment under the government of a foreign state or a political
subdivision thereof, after attaining the age of eighteen years if he has or acquires the nationality of such foreign state; or
4(B) accepting, serving in, or performing the duties of any office, post,
or employment under the government of a foreign state or a political
subdivision thereof, after attaining the age of eighteen years for which
office, post, or employment an oath, affirmation, or declaration of
allegiance is required.
The apparent duplication in 4A and 4B seemed confusing to me for a long time, but I finally now interpret as:
Employment under the government of a foreign state counts as an expatriating act if you either:
– are a citizen of that country, or
– you perform an oath
So, in 4A, an oath is not required but citizenship in that country is.
In 4B, an oath is required but citizenship is not.
I have contacted the Halifax Consulate regarding my desire to renounce, and have sent them the relevant documents. They promised to contact me with an appointment.
Has anyone made a statement, written or otherwise,why one is renouncing? If the reasons are to escape the unfair burden of compliance with CBT, then isn’t this different than “tax avoidance?
I am giving up my birthright to be a U.S. citizen. I would like to tell them why, but not if it puts me in some type of jeopardy.
@Titus, mentioning tax or anything related to the subject isn’t a good idea, even if that’s how you feel. Most people don’t bother with a statement – I didn’t – but if they do it’s usually just to say they want to simplify their life, don’t think it’s right to have two citizenships, etc.
@Titus, please consult my post http://righteousinvestor.com/2011/04/07/my-april-7-visit-to-the-us-consulate/
I wrote a statement, to be sure. When renouncing, one could just simply state that dual citizenship was a mistake, if you acknowledge at all your dual citizenship. If your purpose is only to make your intention clear that you consider yourself a Canadian (or other nationality) only, then say so: “I am not a US person but this brain-dead State Department official will not issue a CLN unless I renounce the US and pay $450 dollars to get out of jail.” This is if they were to refuse a claim of having committed relinquishing act with the intention of giving up US citizenship.
Say nothing about taxes or citizenship base taxation, unless you want to send a message. But that message may result in a lifetime ban from the US under the Reed Amendment, though I know of no one who has been banned through this provision. The Schumer/Casey Ex Patriot act has an asset based determination–but that is not yet law.
@Titus, re; …”Has anyone made a statement, written or otherwise,why one is renouncing? If the reasons are to escape the unfair burden of compliance with CBT, then isn’t this different than “tax avoidance?
I am giving up my birthright to be a U.S. citizen. I would like to tell them why, but not if it puts me in some type of jeopardy…”
I empathize, and felt similarly, it might feel very cathartic to contemplate now, and in the moment, but would perhaps interfere with your end goal. Keep your eyes on the prize. I would advise against making any statement about your reasons – whether in writing or verbally. If you have to, you can say that you just want to be a Canadian only. But you are not compelled to give them a reason. They have no right to any answer, and any attempt to convey the nuances of your reasons can only bring potential trouble, but will most likely have no effect politically. Keep in mind that their worldview, their mission and our goals are very very different. They already know or suspect the reasons that the numbers renouncing have skyrocketed. They already have heard from duals ‘abroad’.
They can ask, but cannot demand a reason – it is not required. Even saying you just want to simplify can lead them to ask what you mean. And they might ask you ‘why now?’ and you might then just reflexively say more than is best – it is an emotional situation, and it is an unusual circumstance for all of us. They document via notes what you say verbally – though very cleverly, they do not show the notes to you or give you a copy – so as far as I know, there is no way to challenge what they write if it is biased or subjective or even incorrect.
The US has already demonstrated that it will not acknowledge what it is doing to us – I doubt that they would recognize the distinctions we make, or even acknowledge nuances in their notes. Obviously, there are not tens of thousands of dual Canadian-US millionaires renouncing and relinquishing – it is absurd. So they know perfectly well that we are mostly just average people. I know that it seems wrong that we cannot have our say finally, right to the face of a US government official, and go on the record with our opposition to being forced to renounce/relinquish, but I would advise against it. Keep your end goal in mind. Rehearsing what you are going to say beforehand, and sticking to that is probably the wisest course – depending on the consular official you get; though they are supposed to be neutral, they are still US homeland individuals, and some may be personally or politically disposed to see us as either being ‘tax cheats’, or of being ‘ungrateful traitors’.
If they ask you several times what your reason is, or whether you are sure you don’t want to make a written statement, just keep repeating what you have decided to say about your purpose – that you have given it all due consideration, and that you are there to renounce – which is your right to do.
I am not trying to make you anxious, only to advise that being prepared, and sticking to the statements that you’ve decided on is best. Do not let them try to pressure you to provide a reason. Do not explain. It is sufficient that you are exercising your right to renounce or relinquish, and to exercise your choice about your citizenship.
I interpret it the same way as you do. Therefore, if a person worked for the Canadian government or a “political subdivision thereof” and being a Canadian citizen was a requirement of the job (which often times it is depending on the position), trying to locate one’s oath (if they had taken one) is not necessary. And if an individual worked for a local government or crown corporation, where an oath is not always required this too would be considered an expatriating act, if being a Canadian citizen was a requirement of the job. correct?
Not quite. Nobody ever said anything about it needing to be a requirement of the job itself that the employee is a Canadian citizen. The US doesn’t care about the requirements of the government employer that you have foreign citizenship. Just the fact that you worked for the government as a citizen of that country is all they look for as an expatriating act in 4A. Either that, or in 4B they look to see if the government job required you to take an oath.
This implies that it is not an expatriating act for a US-only citizen to work for a foreign government (4A) as long as they did not take an oath (4B).
Speaking of employment with a foreign government. I’m not sure if I posted this before or not. Here it is again anyway, in case people have ideas for me or if it is useful to others.
I worked for the City in 1975, 76 and 77. The city is a level of government, right? I just need a letter from the city with the start date of my employment.
I called the city looking for them to write me a letter for the DoS, but their records don’t go back that far. They wouldn’t write me a letter just on my say-so, although I spoke with the records department, not HR.
I looked in my filing box and unbelievably, I have all my tax forms going back to 1978 but not 1977. I was looking for T4 slips.
I called the CRA looking for T4 slips for 1975-77, but their records only go back to 1980.
I called Service Canada, the EI people, to see if they had my old RoE (Record of Employment) forms. They only go back about 10 years.
I called Service Canada, the CPP people. Obviously, they have a record of my CPP contributions back to 1972 when I turned 18. It turns out they have only the contribution amounts but no employer info. However, they told me that the CPP office in Ottawa has more detailed info, including employers. They gave me the mailing address, but there is no email or phone number. They said it can take 90 days to get the information back. At the time, 90 days would be to the day of my appointment date in early February at the US consulate. I sent a letter off with a little plea to expedite the request if they could possibly do so. If I don’t hear from them in time I may postpone my appointment.
If I can get that CPP info showing contributions from the City, I don’t know for sure that the HR department will write me a letter, but I’ll sure as hell try.
I was instructed to include by SIN in my request letter. The CPP address is:
Contributor Client Services, CPP
PO Box 9750, Postal Station T
Ottawa ON K1G3Z4
It didn’t occur to me at the time, but I just googled the address above and found a form online:
I suspect that this will normally only get you the dollar contributions, the same as you can see online if you have an account on the Service Canada website. In my letter, I specifically asked for my employer names and info. I only have the belief of the person I spoke with on the phone that the Ottawa office does indeed have the actual employer information.
Talk about hanging by a thread…
This is a cross post for visibility…
Lea alerted me to this…
The ICIJ, International Consortium of Investigative Journalist is trying to understand
THE MYSTERY OF THE FLEEING AMERICANS
Maybe those of you who do Facebook can help enlightened them about why you are fleeing!
Here was what I posted until the Facebook block stopped me..
It is not a mystery. Summed up simply. FATCA HAS created awareness Amongst ordinary average Americans Have you are living abroad of the penalty and cost implications of Citizenship Taxation. Many-have done the cost vs benefit analyst and find the scales tipped Towards giving up membership in the U.S. single “Tax, Form and Penalty club.” The benefits out weigh the skirt no costs of compliance and risk penalty for failure.
Thanks to all who responded to my post about “giving reasons” at the time of renunciation. I think the wiser course would be to remain silent. How ironic to have to do so about such an important decision with an official from a country that purports to advocate free speech!
A word of warning to those seeking to make an appointment at the consulate. Do not use the online booking system to do so.
I booked an appointment choosing “notarial and other services”, and when I contacted the consulate by email told this was incorrect. As a result, my effort to renounce in 2013 is stymied and I am awaiting the consulate’s pleasure to give me an appointment hopefully in January.
This, of course, means filing yet again another 70+ pages of useless tax forms to once again prove I don’t owe anything!
So, my 17-year-old daughter invited her new (first-ever) boyfriend over for supper and to meet us. Of course, we were pumping him for information about his family…
To make a long story short, I’m quite certain his Canadian-born mother lived in the US long enough after obtaining US citizenship and before returning to Canada that this boy is a US citizen.
He turns 18 in a couple of weeks. I haven’t seen any posts here at IBS about what a young person his age needs to do to disconnect from the US and the IRS. Has anybody gone through this?
I think someone between 18 and 18.5 years old can simply go to a U.S. consulate and tell them they do not claim U.S. citizenship, even though they might be entitled to it — should be a very easy out.
I wonder if you are confusing the article below. I’ve only seen the 6-month window after the age of 18 refered to in this case of resuming citizenship, not getting rid of it.
Em and WhatAmI,
You may read through all of this post to see what your conclusion is. http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2013/07/07/frustration-abounds-as-answers-are-not-received-accidental-americans-born-abroad-to-us-parents-and-not-registered-with-the-us-are-they-automatic-us-citizens-or-do-they-have-the-o/.
I still don’t think the answer is clear that a US citizenship not claimed is a US citizenship. How will the US get to all of these individuals born to US parents abroad, at least the ones who were never registered as US births abroad by their parents? Thanks to “YogaGirl’s” analysis, I agree that my adult son who cannot renounce US citizenship (a US citizenship that was never by his parents “claimed” / registered as a US birth abroad / US SSN / US Passport) should not now be able to “claim” or start paperwork for citizenship by applying for a US social security number by himself as he does not have the requisite ‘mental capacity’ to (as well) apply for / claim / whatever you want to call it US citizenship as the US Consulate says that he cannot renounce US citizenship because of his lack of ‘mental capacity’ and, further, that a parent, a guardian or a trustee cannot renounce (or claim?) that ‘supposed’ US citizenship, even with a court order. That’s my line of thinking and I’m sticking to it. Will my bank who has the RDSP for which I am the Holder for my son, accept this reasoning? Will the US accept this explanation if it puts 1 + 1 together to determine that that the RDSP (in my name for my son, with his name also reported) in the FBARs that I submitted to the US for years 2008 through 2012 is indeed for him (a US citizen from the moment of his birth to me — outside the US, in Canada)? It makes about as much sense as anything I’ve seen by the US Department of State or Treasury / IRS. Any other explanation just has him entrapped into US citizenship as I am told he cannot renounce US citizenship as anyone with requisite mental capacity could, even at any amount of dollars paid to any US tax lawyer or US immigration / nationality lawyer. That seemingly is against US law, but entrapment is lawful.
Read what Sylvia D. Johnson, then Consul General, Ottawa Embassy, said about persons (supposedly with the requisite ‘mental capacity’) going to a US consulate to renounce a US citizenship that essentially was never claimed.
In the post above, is “an” answer given about going to a US Consulate and a person between 18 and 18.5 years old telling them they do not claim US citizenship. Or, does that window of time pertain to a person between 18 and 18.5 years of age who HAS BEEN REGISTERED AS A US BIRTH ABROAD, telling the US Consulate that they do not want the US citizenship that their parent(s) so lovingly registered for them at their birth?
I still don’t think the question about this is adequately answered. It’s all a crap shoot and the reason my friends and family think me stark raving mad. Who am I to say — all I understand is “common sense.”
I think that was what I was thinking about. But if that is the age you can claim U.S. citizenship then couldn’t you also make sure it isn’t inadvertently assigned to you too? Even so it should be relatively easy for anyone who is “of age” and of an age to likely have no messy financial situation to a) find out what his or her U.S. status actually is and then b) get rid of the U.S. status — except in the case of calgary411’s son who even at age 18 could not do so which is most maddening. It is something this young man should be looking into before he has income and assets. One thing is for certain, he is smart enough to be dating your lovely daughter, so I’m certain he’ll find the answers now that he knows there is a potential problem with U.S. citizenship.
Just to clarify, my son is now 39. I (for him) knew NOTHING of all of this when he was 18 years of age.
And, what is the answer: does US citizenship have to be CLAIMED or is it (for some born to US parent(s) outside the US) automatic from the moment of birth (as I was advised for the money I paid to a Washington, DC immigration / nationality lawyer)? And, just how will the US COLLECT all of these persons? Only the “accidentals” born in the US and have that birthplace on their other-country passport will be obvious. And, just what does the term “fair” mean?
The sad thing is, even if you had known then (son at 18), calgary411, it still would not have helped. This is such a mess and how are we expected to have even known there were questions we needed to have answers to when we had no clue we should have been asking questions? We function with simple common sense and they function with complexity and obfuscation.
Thanks for that reminder. As I read it again, I see that it’s full of statements claiming what’s relevant, reasonable and logical. IOW, more wishful thinking.
Going back to the link I gave, here are some interesting bits:
The following appears before my quote about one US-citizen parent:
That clearly says that such a person “has a claim”, but also “acquires citizenship”. A bit contradictory in my mind, as the first statement implies to me that one must act on the claim, but the second statement hints at it being automatic.
At the end of all the paragraphs covering various circumstances such as one US parent, 2 US parents, in wedlock, out of wedlock, etc, is this:
This clearly states that action is required.
Then at the bottom of the page is this section:
Since the title of the section is “Automatic Acquisition of Citizenship”, that implies to me that everything else above on the page is NOT automatic. Notice that it says that the child has to be resident in the US for it to be automatic, which is repeated in the link to the child_citizenship_act_of_2000:
At the end of this page is a section that confuses me. It says this is “another provision/section”, yet the details seem identical to the main part of the act.
I have a hard time figuring out how in the above sections, a person of US parents could be “born and reside abroad, and who do not become American citizens at birth”. The best I can figure is that this simply means those children whose parents did not apply for a Report of Birth Abroad before the child turned 18.
Finally, this page:
seems to say that if you are over 18 and born abroad to US parents who qualify to pass on citizenship, you simply apply for a passport with all the supporting documentation.
OK, so we’re back to the original question. If you never apply or notify the US in any way, does/can the IRS still automatically claim you as a citizen? In the last hour I’ve changed my mind from believing “yes” to believing “no”. It’s only automatic if you move back to the US prior to age 18.
Everything I’ve said could be wrong. We need more eyes on this!