Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
I have sent the question (again) on to others, WhatAmI … because the answer is NOT clear. The answer absolutely needs to be very clear as it will affect so many born outside of the US to US Parent(s). The stakes of consequences of their US citizenship status with FATCA and US Citizenship-Based Taxation law are high for some who had NO CHOICE at all in “automatically becoming US citizens at birth.” In my mind, it should be the RIGHT TO A CLAIM OF US CITIZENSHIP if you were lucky, or unlucky as the case may be, enough to have the requisite qualifications.
Right now, a crap shoot. If you make the wrong assumption because the answer is NOT CLEAR, the consequences for you could be staggering. I don’t know the definitive answer, but it is something I very much want to know in planning for my son’s future. Not knowing for sure is just not acceptable (to me at least).
Em, your thinking is the same as mine. Common sense seems to have gone out the window, starting with the windows of people who make these obscenely complex laws to the lawyers we have to hire to interpret them so as not to be punished with horrendous US penalties. Is ‘common sense’ even a concept in these times?
Titus, I wrote nothing. Anything that you say may be used against you. Once an individual renounces, they are dead as far as US politicians are concerned. The statement is thus pointless. The US won’t use it to identify a real problem. Its only purpose is to punish anyone who mentions the word “tax” by declaring them as being a “covered expatriate”.
@WhatAmI, again, if he has no official documents – US birth certificate, register of birth abroad, US passport, etc – then he doesn’t have to do anything. For all intents and purposes he is Canadian and that’s all! Let sleeping dogs lie.
If he was born in the States or his birth registered at a US embassy then yes, he’ll need to think about renouncing if he doesn’t want to continue being a dual national.
It’s clear that we exist as US persons only to serve the government, as taxpayers and infiltrators into the treasuries of other nations. I’d challenge anyone to argue otherwise.
My feeling is, if it weren’t for the fact that people were registered as births abroad by their parents, we’d probably see some real resentment here, especially if the registrant wasn’t made aware of the fact until later in life. Just to let you know how sympathetic the IRS is under these circumstances, they are willing under OVDP to reduce the FBAR penalty to 5% if you didn’t know you were a USC.
‘Only’ 5% of all of one’s non-US assets at their highest value in aggregate over the past eight year for a COMPLETELY innocent mistake??? HOW in the HELL can that be reasonable??
@Bubble, I assume you were being sarcastic?
Unfortunately, this time I’m not. It’s all here: #52.2
I am trying to get all the documents together to prove that I relinquished my US citizenship in 1988. I just discovered that my birth certificate from New York State – is really a birth notice and doesn’t include my parents full names. It just includes their first names and middle initials. My instructions from the US embassy say that my birth certificate has to have my parent’s full names on it.
So, I’ve just ordered a birth certificate from the New York State website. Does anyone know if this new birth certificate will have my parents complete names on it?
I got mine from them (NY State Dept of Health). They sent an official photocopy (that is a signed, sealed and dated photocopy) of the original form that had been filed with them to register my birth in 1953. It has a lot of details on it, looks more like an informational document than a certificate, although it is titled “Certificate of Birth.” It contained parents’ full names (actually I just realised looking at it right now, where it says “father’s full name,” it doesn’t have my father’s full middle name, just his initial). Vancouver was getting bent out of shape about parents’ middle names last year — but I haven’t heard of that being a problem anywhere else. At any rate, the birth registration document specifically asked for the full names, so in all probability that’s what your parents filled in (unlike my dad). BTW, the middle initial was not an issue at all at my consulate meeting in Toronto.
I guess I’ll just have to wait and see. I ordered mine from the NY state department of health too. I have two copies of my original birth notice, one with the raised seal – I’ll bring that one along to my US embassy appointment with whatever I receive in the mail.
The plot thickens … Has anyone had any experience with being born in the US to Canadian parents, but not having their birth registered with the vital Records Department? Has anyone used a birth affidavit and a letter of no record when relinquishing/renouncing?
If you were born in the US, you are a US citizen. Are you being told by the New York authority that they have no record of your birth? Perhaps you have hit the jackpot.
There is some discussion at the link within this comment about US Consulates telling people who were indeed never registered as US births abroad who have come to renounce. There really isn’t a clear answer on any of this as far as I’m concerned.
In which country was your birth was not recorded? In Canada as a citizen born abroad?
My birth may not have been recorded with the New York State Vital Records department.
I am waiting to hear from the New York authority. If my birth wasn’t recorded, I will request a “Letter of no record”.
Since my birthplace was in the US, I will need a CLN for the bank because I have savings that I need to protect.
Where is the documentation that you are a US citizen because you were born in the US — your Canadian passport that has your birthplace as New York State? So unfair, the plight of “accidental Americans” with no choice at all like instead an option to claim a US citizenship given their parentage and accidental place of birth.
My Canadian passport lists a US city as my birthplace. That is the only documentation that I have along with a “Birth Notice” – that looks like a birth certificate. It has a coloured raised seal, the first names and middle initial of my parents, my name, my birthdate and a stamp on the day the Birth Notice was issued. The US Embassy said that this Birth Notice isn’t acceptable as a Birth Certificate, so I’ve ordered a Birth Certificate from New York. From what I understand, if I wasn’t registered, then I won’t get a birth certificate (my mother doesn’t remember if I was registered). The US Passport website says that I can use secondary information if I don’t have a birth certificate. The secondary information includes a birth affidavit and a letter of no record.
If NY State can’t provide you with a birth certificate, then this is the first time I’ve ever heard of an undocumented US citizen born on US soil. I take it that the Canadian government found your ‘birth notice’ to be sufficient when issuing your Canadian passport?
Here it is, a perfect example of a government official being expected to verify the validity of a certificate provided by a foreign government! Will bank employees be any more proficient in authenticating CLNs? I think the answer will be NO, therefore I predict the US will be called upon by Canadian banks to verify them, releasing the banks from the liability of having let a USP slip through the cracks.
Hadn’t seen this video by PressTV before. Not many views…
@Just Me, that is a good video. And very interesting that O Keefe was turned down on the grounds that he didn’t have another citizenship (which is NOT mandatory), and that the third time, when he had obtained Irish citizenship, they refused him again, but also refused to give a reason.
I think that they are desperate to hide the actual numbers and to either slow or prevent people from formally renouncing or relinquishing.
Maybe O’Keefe shows signs of not having his faculties about him, as most USC’s living outside the US won’t under the FATCA pogrom soon.
If O’Keefe is able to rid himself of US citizenship because he does not pledge allegiance to the US, how many would follow?
Ken O’Keefe is a hero in my books. He is a fierce defender of the Palestinian people. And therein lies the reason for the USG’s mistreatment of him. The USG will never give him what he wants — freedom from his unwanted association with the USA. Keeping Ken chained in this way, the USG believes it can control him better. I would imagine Ken is on a CIA hit list but he still continues to speak for the people who he loves and who have little opportunity to speak for themselves.
What I found interesting is that this is Iranian TV reporting on the U.S. renunciation story. Have to watch our bitter enemy to find out what is happening! 🙂
Just an update –
I received my U.S. birth certificate, but it doesn’t include my Canadian parents middle names (just initials). So … I’ve reordered a “full form” version – so hopefully that will cover all of my basis.
I have proof of my Canadian government employment, and a copy of the oath that I signed.
As directed by the embassy – I completed a short questionnaire and form 97025 and sent them via email. They responded to my email, and now I have an appointment in January to apply for a backdated CLN. I also have to take a pre-paid express post envelope with me to my interview – for the mailing of my CLN.
Thanks again to everyone for all of your help and your posts!!! I’m a nervous wreck, but I’m holding on and I’ll get through this.