Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
Another renunciant;
http://3news.com/im-not-a-us-citizen-deputy-finance-minister-fights-back/
@DoD Thanks for the advice! if anyone else has any input on if i need to file any return for 2017 (my date of renouncing was Jan 31st 2017) or just send in the 8854 that would be appreciated. I guess if the 8854 usually accompanies a tax return I like the idea of filling in all zeros I guess.
also I got my CLN about a month ago too it was really fast! yeah! less than 2 months.
thanks for everyone’s help.
@James If you have filed in previous years, it’s my opinion you should file a dual-status return for 2017, even when your income up to 30 Jan is below the reporting threshold, and there’s no US-source income from 31 Jan to year-end, i.e. the1040NR is all zeros. This leaves no loose ends for the IRS to seize on if they ever decide to follow up on renunciants. This is my opinion not advice.
If you never filed before, then look at what others have said about the costs and risks of sending in the 8854, or an 8854 and a return or multiple returns, or nothing at all.
@fn0, yes ive been filing for the last 5 years and sent in the letter asking forgiveness blah blah blah…. I don’t and never have had us source income, but i’ve been sending in 1040 NOT 1040NR on advice of the accountant that initially did our first return. should i just send in the 1040 for the first month of the year and then a basically blank 1040NR for the remainder of the year? sorry if i misunderstood. and thank you.
@James, if you do file and attach the 8854 plus sending the second copy of the 8854 to the additional Philadelphia address as per the instructions (if they haven’t changed ), keep this in mind and leave yourself plenty of time to send the second copy and avoid this potential pitfall;
https://hodgen.com/you-cant-file-form-8854-via-fedex-or-ups/
One disagrees with Phil Hodgen at one’s peril.
However there does appear to be a legitimate address for FEDEX or UPS for form 8854 in Philly.
(Several different sources via Google) (no guarantees!)
@James Disclaimer – The following is somewhat informed opinion, could be wrong, and is not professional advice.
Based on information from various sources including IRS pubs, your status at year-end is what determines the form your return should be on, As an NRA at year-end with no US source income after Jan 30, you should send in a 1040NR with all zeros, and the top of the first page should be marked “Dual-status Return (Jan 31 – Dec 31 2017). With this you should include a statement that provides information for the part of 2017 before Jan 31, and this can be on a 1040 form marked “Dual-status Statement (Jan 1-30)” on the top of the first page. Sign the 1040NR and the 8854 form but not the 1040 statement as it’s an attachment to the signed 1040NR return. Forms like 2555, 1116 or others might be needed with the 1040 statement. And remember to submit the electronic FINCEN.
In my case I submitted separate individual 1040NRs for myself and my spouse because the 1040NR doesn’t have a Married Filing Jointly option, but the1040 statement I attached to each was a Married Filing Jointly statement. MFJ status in the last dual status year is possible according to the Dick and Judy Brown example on page 9 of IRS Pub 519 for 2016, which says that the MFJ option is not suspended until the first year in which neither spouse is a (tax) resident at any time, i.e. the year when both are NRAs the whole year. Pub 519 also says that Nonresident Aliens cannot claim the standard deduction, and I wasn’t sure if this applied in the first part of the year , so to avoid possible errors I itemized deductions on the 1040 statement. It didn’t make any difference to the bottom line of zero US tax in 2016 anyway. I pay enough income tax to my current home country already.
I submitted an electronic FINCEN, but no 8938 as my “specified foreign financial assets” were below the reporting threshold.
That’s a summary of my best effort at this, and I’ll post in the unlikely event there’s any kickback.
Disclaimer: – the above is opinion, not advice.
I have a question about the due date for the copy of the 8854 sent to Philadelphia. Isn’t the deadline the same as the deadline for filing the 1040/1040NR tax forms, including extensions? I found this wording in a couple of places the other day, including from a U.S. Embassy: “A copy of the Form 8854 must also be filed with Internal Revenue Service Philadelphia, PA 19255-0049, by the due date of the tax return (including extensions).” So doesn’t that mean if you file Form 4868 to get an extension to October 15th (I think), that the 8854 to Philadelphia is also due then? (Of course, how does Philadelphia know you have requested an extension?)
I just felt calm after renouncing at the end of 2016. Now, of course, it’s time to deal with the final filings, so not so calm for the duration. I’m back to reading and re-reading everything, and thank everyone who has been through this for helping with information and moral support.
@fn0, I’ve read that Dick and Judy Brown example in IRS Pub 519 a few times, and have read it both ways with regard to still being able to file a joint 1040 up to the date of renunciation. My husband and I have always filed jointly, and I’d like to do that; he renounced, too. I’ll read that section a few more times. It would be easier to file that last 1040 jointly, with the separate 1040NRs, as you described.
@James ,fn0, Canoe
We always filed jointly, but after renouncing our accountant (an enrolled agent) said that we must each file a separate 1040NR for that year but with the statement “dual status return” handwritten on the top of the first page. That was five years ago, and all quiet.
@canoe, re: “So doesn’t that mean if you file Form 4868 to get an extension to October 15th (I think), that the 8854 to Philadelphia is also due then? (Of course, how does Philadelphia know you have requested an extension?)”
That would be my reading of the rules too. As for how Philadelphia knows of your extension request… at some point I suppose you just have to assume that the IRS has joined-up database systems (no matter that all circumstantial evidence points to the contrary!).
In practice the 8854 is pretty easy to complete, especially if you don’t stress over every (or any!) value on it, and so if you end up doing that form first you could probably send it to Philadelphia as soon as ready and potentially well before the non-extended deadline anyway.
My guess is that the copies sent to Philadelphia just get filed, while the other copy gets sent with the 1040 in case action is needed/required (refunds for example).
I sent only the 8854 and I sent it by tracked mail to Philadelphia to the address quoted above by DoD; eventually it got there.
If I was doing it today I wouldn’t bother.
My adult dual citizen kids want to renounce US citizenship. They’ve never had a US passport as they travel on their Canadian one. Will their Consular Report of Birth Abroad suffice when submitting their paperwork, or will they need to get a US passport simply to hand it back in?
@sheila
To your question, I don’t believe that you need a US passport to renounce.
Were your kids born outside of the US? I’m assuming so but want to confirm. If they have not been tax compliant, don’t have an SSN, etc. and their only record with the US government is registration of birth many decades past, then they could consider simply staying off the radar and pretending not to have US citizenship. This would save them US$2350 and the possibility of having to go through a lot of paperwork to exit the US tax system.
Consular Report of Birth Abroad is fine. This from the embassy here in Switzerland website:
“You should gather the following documents:
•U.S. Birth Certificate (copy sufficient) or U.S. Consular Report of Birth Abroad (original required).
•Bio-page of your most recent U.S. passport.
•Bio-pages of all current foreign passports.
•U.S. Certificate of Naturalization (If applicable)
•U.S. Certificates of Citizenship (If applicable)
•Completed Loss of Citizenship Questionnaire – download the form here (DOC 43 KB)
•Completed Informal Loss of Citizenship Acknowledgement, which must be signed/dated and sent as a scanned document. Download the document here (DOC 76 KB)”
No idea what that last one is, that’s new. If they don’t have US passports then obviously they can’t send any info from them, they’d simply need to say so when submitting the other documents.
As Nonymous says though, if they have no US indica except for the Consular Report I’d just quietly forget the American side of things. If you think their bank/s will get around to checking then maybe it would be worth getting, assuming you also bank at the same establishment/s, but otherwise why bother? IRS/US Government won’t know, their bank/s won’t know so why go to the expense of renouncing if it’s not needed.
If one or both parents have been identified by their bank as US persons then a simple precaution might be for the non-US-born children to use a different bank. Otherwise it’s clear sailing if they aren’t already in the US system.
@fn0, @badger, @DoD, @heidi thanks so much for all your help! very much appreciated!
@sheila — I agree with Medea about no need to get a U.S. passport in order to renounce, and using the Consular Report of Birth Abroad. My own passport expired ages ago; they wanted to see my U.S. Birth certificate instead.
The list of required documents for renouncing in Canada can be gotten here: https://ca.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/loss-of-nationality/
Thanks for the responses. I’m renouncing, too, and my US passport has long expired. It’s especially reassuring to hear from those that have had similar circumstances ( absent or expired passports) when submitting renunciation paperwork. Ps–my adult kids have SSN and have been tax compliant, so we all need to go through formalities.
Sheila. A long expired passport is even better. It shows you haven’t considered yourself to be American. Certainly no need to get one if your children don’t have them. In that case some form of proof of citizenship would be required (unless none exists)
Medea No idea what those last 2 documents are. In
Ccanada you need a DS 4080 (Oath of Renunciation) filled in but unsigned and a DS4081 (Statement of understanding concerning consequences …… of renouncing……..) also filled in but not signed. Both are signed later in the presence of the vice-consul.
@DoD, the next to last is the usual form to work out whether or not you have lost your US citizenship, if you didn’t intend to. Used mainly for relinquishments, some embassies/consulates use it for renunciations as well which just wastes the applicant’s and the consular staff’s time as it’s totally useless for a renunciation.
The last is new and has these questions:
“Have you reviewed the brochures on the Consular Affairs Website?
(1) Renunciation of U.S. Citizenship, (2) Renunciation of U.S. Citizenship by Person Claiming a Right of Residence in the U.S., (3) Possible Loss of U.S. Citizenship and Dual Nationality.
Are you doing this of your own free will?
Do you intend to completely lose your citizenship without any possibility of reclaiming it in the future?
Has your decision been subject to any force, compulsion or undue influence?
Can you claim any other nationality? (If not you may become stateless)
Do you understand that you must contact the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) regarding any outstanding tax issues and your future tax status?
Do you understand that if the attorney general determines that your renunciation was motivated by tax avoidance purposes you may be found excludable from the United States?
Do you understand that you will no longer have the right to enter the U.S. for future travel unless you possess a valid U.S. visa or be in compliance with the provisions of the Visa Waiver Program (ESTA).
Do you understand that you will no longer have the right to file immigrant visa petitions on behalf of your relatives or employees?
Do you understand that you will no longer be able to vote in U.S. elections?
Do you understand that you will no longer have the right to U.S. consular assistance?
Do you understand that renunciation has no effect on any pending prosecution?
Have you reviewed and do you understand the serious consequences of renunciation as summarized in the Form DS-4081, Statement of Understanding Concerning the Consequences and Ramifications of Relinquishment or Renunciation of U.S. Citizenship?
Have you received sufficient information to make an informed decision about renouncing your citizenship and have you had enough time to reflect on the consequences of renouncing your citizenship?
Do you wish to speak with a Consular Staff Member/Officer for additional information? If Yes, please indicate if you would like a telephone appointment or an in-person appointment. Please note that speaking with a Consular Staff Member/Officer for additional information does not constitute your final, in-person interview.”
Each question has a box nex to it where I assume you write yes or no. The form has to be signed and dated and turned in at the final in-person appointment.
Canada used to use the first, but may have dropped it given the number of people looking to give up their US citizenship and the long waiting times to get an appointment.
Checking the State Department website while cross-referencing that new form over to the English Forum found that the new State Department website, although listing the usual CLN, Oath of Statement of Understanding, Witnesses’ Attestion and the Request forms doesn’t actually have them on the website anymore. You get a “Sorry that page can’t be found” message. Nor does searching for them in the previous administration’s website reveal them. Is this yet another attempt to put people off renouncing/relinquishing?
@sheila. I should have said they did take my long-expired passport and mailed it back to me with my CLN. In addition, they wanted to see my birth certificate at my appointment. From reading people’s consulate reports, I took more documents than what was on the required list, so I would hopefully have anything else they might want to see, e.g., various forms of birth certificate.
@Medea – it’s here:
https://uk.usembassy.gov/wp-content/uploads/sites/16/2015/12/informal_loss_acknowledgement.pdf
“Is this yet another attempt to put people off renouncing/relinquishing?”
Good question. It’s nasty – worse than DS-4079.
This Informal Loss etc form was referred to on the Expat forum back in 2013 (http://www.expatforum.com/expats/britain-expat-forum-expats-living-uk/155996-renouncing-us-citizenship-london-embassy.html) so maybe it’s just specific to London. Hence “informal” perhaps.
@iota, yes that form is available at the US embassy in Bern too, but I don’t recall seeing it before. Doesn’t appear on the State Department website though and neither do any of the other renunciation forms. I’ve tried using IE10 (site is crap for that browser now) and also using Firefox. I didn’t have to fill one in when I renounced in 2013.