Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
Not specific to London – just chiming back in to say that the form is used elsewhere in Europe as well. That’s one of the forms I was given to fill out in advance of my appointment. I guess depending on one’s point of view it could be seen as intimidating, but for my part, I find it far less intimidating than the prospect of the rest of my years spent either feeling I must hide from or bend over for unjust, ham-fisted laws doled out by a country of which I do not consider myself a part, and haven’t for a significant portion of my life. I find it less intimidating than having my modest, humble life be treated with equal measures of contempt or callousness, mere collateral damage by parties that at best, see us as a useful tack-on for a protection of ACTUAL tax evaders, and at worst, ungrateful impudent wretches who dared to be happier elsewhere.
@Medea – looking at it again, some of the questions do seem a little familiar. I think I might have been asked some of these questions by the Consular Officer in Amsterdam during the hold-your-hand-up part of the interview.
Maybe it’s just a CYA exercise.
@Merrick – I think it’s all the context that determines whether questions feel intimidating. Particularly questions like:
If asked verbally by a non-hostile official when you’re actually renouncing, they might just seem like “Yeah, yeah, whatever..”. But if I had been told I had to complete this form in writing beforehand, and send it in with the rest of the documentation, I’m sure I would have seen it as quite aggressive.
Completely understand/agree, and I fully admit that on those quoted points, people who have a more complicated or robust financial situation or more thorough American ties (or assets) will feel more dread/worry at reading those questions than I do. That said, I know I’m not the only one here that’s already walked her/his mind through the proverbial fire, and come to the conclusion that abusive relationships are simply not worth it, and that’s what I see this whole thing as being. Even the fee is abusive – “You have rights, as long as you can afford to exercise them.” With a bit of savings, by virtue perhaps of being childless and having a fully supportive partner and another citizenship – I will get through this. But I read here every day, lurking mostly, about how some can’t – how they are literally stuck, held as a unique sort of hostage by a country that claims to love liberty and justice, who holds itself up as a beacon of human rights…..but the underlying message is love me, “or else” fear me…..I had/have relatives like that. I hope this site helps others as it is helping me – it has given me back SO MUCH equilibrium about this topic, even in the dissenting responses I got to my original query, that
neatly mirrored the complexity and necessary “personalisation” of each person’s solution to this quandary, emphasised the need to not react – but READ – read, read, read – since the right answer is going to be different for every one of us.
@Merrick – absolutely agree with you that renunciation is the most effective solution, for those who don’t have US assets and don’t need the passport.
FATCA/CBT certainly came as a shock to me, but more because it seemed so scary, the thought that the US might be able to force me to pay US tax. Me and America never really got on, so the news that they would do it if they could, didn’t really come as a surprise.
It’s taken me a while to get my head round what they actually _can_ do (not much, I now believe) and what they’re likely to spend time and money trying to do (also not much, I now believe). Unfortunately, the anxiety that has been generated among banks (that every US-born customer might be a risk) is not likely to go away. May just be a problem us US-born have to learn to live with. 🙁
Those 3 questions on the Informal Loss of Citizenship Acknowledgement are pretty much taken from the DS-4081, Statement of Understanding of Consequences. My guess is they want to be sure you know this stuff before your appointment, but you can’t sign the 4081 in advance, so they came up with this informal acknolwedgement document.
The first 2 questions:
are Point 10 of the DS-4081:
The 3rd question:
is based on Point 4 of the DS-4081:
@Pacifica – thanks for clearing that up. That makes perfect sense.
@shiela just an FYI I didnt even have my passport anymore so I had nothing to show them however they said, when I contacted the passport office, that they were able to pull up the old record of it. (yes I know in retrospect my dad spooked us into start filing taxes etc even though we were so far off the radar it wasnt even funny. oh well… he paid for the hefty fee 🙂
@Pacifica, no you can’t sign the 4081, but they do usually send it to you beforehand to read and understand at your leisure. More likely just another piece of paper to add to the justification of the renunciation fee hike. Or to add more justification for raising it again.
@Medea Fleecestealer
The documents can be all found at eforms.state.gov
When I relinquished, all the documents on this page where Windows forms, which had to be filled out online and printed as PDF and sent per email, but I see they have gone back to all blank PDFs now.
Also when I sent the files, they retyped all the information into a Forms document on their computer and had me proofread them that the information was transcripted correctly (while blabbering on about financial reasons, work load, whole families, etc.) Good thing I had hardcopies of what I sent with me.
To the 4081: they delayed making me an appointment date, because they wanted it to be signed BEFORE I sent it, until I called and informed them that the document itself requires in (12) that that the officer explain to me the consequences first, which they could only do when I was there.
They also wanted me to fill 4080, despite me having relinquished, AND they want me to fill out the CLN 4083!
One of the hare-brained arguments that “I didn’t really relinquish” was that I didn’t fill out and sign a 4081 BEFORE I signed my Einbürgerungsurkunde to get German citizenship, so therefore there was no proof I knew the consequences.
I got the dream team when it came to competence.
@UnforgivenToo, who’s going to know they’re there? I can’t even see a link on the main website to take you to eforms, no mention of this at all. Only way I found them was by searching for one of them by number and that comes up with the PDF files which are no longer accessible.
Just tried http://www.eforms.state.gov using Firefox and came back as not found!
@ Medea Fleecestealer,
Yeah, embassies are screwing up (what else is new, argh) giving those links. The links changed a while back. I got the current links from the Canada embassy/consulate’s renunciation information e-mail in February, so we have them in the Sidebar under Important Info/Dept of State Forms. So, if anyone’s reading Brock, they can find them here. For $2350, you’d think they’d update their websites!
The links that work and don’t work as of today
http://www.eforms.state.gov — does not work; goes to “This web page not available (Aviator)” or “Safari can’t find the webpage” or “Firefox can’t find the server”
eforms.state.gov — works; takes you the State Dept forms, albeit with “certificate not trusted” warnings
Bottom line — There is no “www” in the working URL.
Exactly. https://eforms.state.gov
When I got the email with links to the documents from DOS, they sent
http://arpsdir.a.state.gov/eform
Which, of course, only worked within the DOS network, so I had to find this damn form server on my own (no answer to my email requesting a working link).
As I said before: now it’s all PDFs, but back then it was a Windows Forms server.
@Pacifica, that’s the problem, they did update the wesbite. Swept out all the Obama administration stuff without actually checking what needed to be kept. Too busy getting rid of any trace of the old regime.
@DoD, re;
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/renunciation/comment-page-284/#comment-7855908
You may be right about that mailing address you found for the *Philly office – though officially the IRS page of addresses by form and # still doesn’t list any approved delivery address for “private courier services” to use for the listed 8854 address (*Department of the Treasury , Internal Revenue Service
Philadelphia, PA 19255-0049 ) in the 8854 instructions.
I also couldn’t see Form 8854 listed at; ‘Where to File Tax Returns – Addresses Listed by Return Type’ list at https://www.irs.gov/uac/where-to-file-tax-returns-addresses-listed-by-return-type (dated Dec. 2016 ) or even the *Philadelphia address as given for the 8854 (Note; the original copy goes with the last return IF a Form 1040NR or a Form 1040 is required to be filed);
“..Where To File
Send your Form 8854 (or a copy of your Form 8854 if you are required to attach the original to a Form 1040NR or a Form 1040) to this address;
Department of the Treasury
Internal Revenue Service
Philadelphia, PA 19255-0049 ”
And the IRS page ‘Where To File – Forms Beginning With The Number 8’ doesn’t even list form 8854 (is it top secret?) https://www.irs.gov/uac/where-to-file-forms-beginning-with-the-number-8 .
The inadequate ‘service’ behaviour of the IRS continues despite the problems having been aired repeatedly and loudly by those ‘abroad’ over the last >+ 5years. They say they want, no, DEMAND ‘compliance’, but can’t be bothered to make it any easier or logical or comprehensible – even for those willing and trying to ‘comply with their extraterritorial BS.
Too bad there isn’t a confiscatory fine that could be imposed on the IRS for willful neglect and failure to exercise “ordinary business care and prudence” in their woefully inadequate customer service to those outside the US. By now they can’t believably claim that they don’t know about all these serious issues and barriers that those attempting to comply from ‘abroad’ face from the very agency who pretends that we should have known from our first moments in the womb of a US born parent all about US extraterritorial CBT with its layers of punishments and all its forms and incomprehensible instructions and myriad of inconsistencies.
“Has your decision been subject to any force, compulsion or undue influence?”
Yes, by the USA government’s unfair treatment of its overseas citizens, hence the renunciation.
What a insult to injury question THAT is!
@Jane
Yes, I really had to bite my tongue when asked that one but I wanted out so badly and didn’t want to risk jeopardizing my freedom.
Having said that the Consul was really nice and when I offered her my voluntary statement (bank closures etc) she said she fully understood the reasons behind the renunciations
Time line for renunciation Vancouver
Early Sept 2016– asked for appointment.
2 days later –filed all forms by e-mail
Mid October— appointment for Feb 2017
Mid Feb appointment at consulate- not busy, no problems. They appear to be doing about 2 /day
Early April—CLN received along with a blank 8854 and instructions.
I.E. 7 months altogether.
Congratulations, Portland! And thanks for the info, which I’ll add to the time line chart in the Consulate Report Directory.
@Portland, Congratulations!
So now they’re sending renunciants an 8854 form along with the CLN are they? If that’s not a pointed reminder that it’s all about the money, I don’t know what is. Pity so few of their “targets” are going to owe them anything after giving up their little blue book. (Evil grin)
Hello all, I’m a dual German and U.S. citizen and moved to Germany from the U.S. in 2003. I’ve recently decided to renounce US citizenship, due in part to FATCA. Since I still have account/assets in the U.S., I need guidance through the tax compliance process. I am looking for names of reputable firms that specialize in this process, including the filling out of the various forms. I’ve spoken with one, but would like to speak to at least one other. Does anyone here have a recommendation? Thanks.
Re:
Seems to be a Vancouver thing. They’ve been sending them with the CLNs for years. Don’t know if anywhere else is, though.
Have any non-Vancouverites get 8854s along with their CLN? Or, I’m also curious has anyone from Vancouver not got one? Thanks.
@ E Lise
We are a mixed bunch here on IB and as such have dealt with compliancy/ renunciation in different ways and in different countries.
I take it you have not filed since leaving the US?
Are your finances complex? Are you in the position of being a covered expatriate, ie having assets over $2,000,000?
Many here have kept things simple and filed themselves as compliance ‘experts’ charge high fees and will want every last detail.
I will quote a past post by Fred B on this site.
“There is a middle ground for compliance. It follows the spirit of the law and takes into account the fact that attempting true compliance is madness, as shown repeatedly. When one decides to become compliant for whatever reason, such as preparation for clean renunciation or continuation of banking in the EU (both debatable points, granted), one can choose a tax preparer and feed that tax preparer carefully selected data. Such as income, local tax paid on that income, and perhaps professional expenses (forget charitable donations, mortgages, bla bla). In many cases local tax, used as the foreign tax credit, will offset handily any US tax. Keep it that simple. And if you haven’t filed before, just start filing with no explanation. I filed 3 years at once 3 years ago. Just feeding the form monster nice forms that it likes. No complications. I list mutual funds as savings accounts because I don’t understand the difference. Etc. It is highly unlikely I’ll ever be audited. If I am, I’ll feed them all the original paperwork, nothing to hide. And in a couple of years I’ll be fully “compliant” and renunciation will be easy (unless they hike the fee). The big mistake in the reported cases was letting the usual accountants translate the local return into a US return. It is so complex and obviously perilous that it is just asking for trouble. Professionals feed their families with this stuff. And they are afraid of malpractice. Recipe for disaster. One needs to retain control of what is fed to the professionals. In my opinion only high net worth people benefit from truly good and tailored advice (or at least as long as they are high net worth they are somewhat shielded and won’t be hurt by the price of these professionals).
It is good advice. If you decide to go it alone, you can ask questions here and many will help from their past experience.
Other than that, I believe some here used turbo tax.
Having assets in the US doesn’t have to be a problem.
PS. @. E.Lise
If you are intending to renounce this year, you will need 5 yrs of back filing and one partial year(this year) 6 yrs of fbars, and the 8854 to exit cleanly and not be a covered expat.