Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@George, I was married in 2002 and thus my citizenship was expedited somewhat. I do not remember much about the application but I see your point…
@Medea – thank you for that…Good to know, and I will do.
@Merrick, you should look at a renewal application to refresh your memory of what you signed.
Had you followed the clear directions and noted that you naturalised you would have received a followup from Citizenship Services at the embassy asking you for clarification. In order to have been issued a renewed passport you would have had to sign another statement which said that you did not intend to relinquish. You would have remembered all this.
Some folks at IBS worry about unfiled forms that they did not know existed.
Regardless if you go to renounce or relinquish you need to understand that State is going to know when and how you became British and that you applied for a US renewal and lied under penalty of perjury.
Happy reading end of page one in bold FALSE STATEMENTS;
https://www.state.gov/documents/organization/212241.pdf
You agreed to the following as printed “I have not, since acquiring United States citizenship/nationality, been naturalized as a citizen of a foreign state; taken an oath..”
Seriously how are you going to explain away the fact that you naturalised in the UK months not years prior to renewal and then glared over very clear statements and signed away?
Rule number one when standing in a hole is stop digging.
You knowingly applied for a US Passport after you had naturalized in the UK ignoring multiple warnings on the application. That is a five year felony.
Debating should I renounce or relinquish to get a CLN is insane, you need to see a lawyer about perjury and the implications of that before doing anything else.
I may seem harsh but this is so clear.
@GEORGE
I expect many have done this and later renounced.
What are they going to do, refuse his renunciation? They can’t.
Arrest him at the Embassy or wait til he visits the US?
I detect a change of tone from the usual George here?!
George – it is not illegal to be a dual citizen, so your alarming tone is…well, alarming.
First off, I wouldn’t have lied about having a UK passport, I had no reason to and I had already used that passport in the USA, and it had the same name as my American one. Both entities were aware of both citizenships, as I did not formally relinquish at ANY point in those early years, in part because I never dreamed it might become necessary, I wouldn’t have reported it that way – WHICH is exactly why I may have to renounce instead.
I had HOPED to relinquish, but it’s very clear to me that it’s probably not something I can do after all. So the point is effectively made already, I didn’t claim to have relinquished then, so I won’t be able to now.
So while I appreciate your concern IF taken in the context of a relinquishment – I agree with Heidi that it seems entirely out of the realm that I’d be treated that way as a RENOUNCER, because then I’m a dual citizen seeking to no longer be a dual citizen. That’s it. In such a circumstance, I would not be claiming anything of the sort in terms of “glaring over statments”. I don’t LIKE that I may have to renounce vs relinquish, but I already own the fact that it was a silly mistake to renew, and I’ve moved on to consider the other remaining options.
@merrick
Look, nobody is going to be thrown in jail for perjury because they skimmed over a passport application and signed without reading the fine print. Not worth worrying about.
I’d take a purely practical approach. Solve the problems that need solving. Right now, happily, you have none.
Travel. US customs, and some airlines, may require that you either use your US passport for travel to the US, or get rid of it and provide a CLN with your UK passport. See what happens with the ESTA thing (about which I know nothing, being Canadian). If you need it, you at least have a valid US passport for another few years.
Banking. If you begin losing access to banking services, or think you are going to face FATCA reporting, deny US personhood. Either renounce the US citizenship or try the route suggested, self-attest to having relinquished by taking UK citizenship. Figure out what works and choose the simplest option. Telling a lie is a cheap and effective solution. Keep the banks happy and you can forget about the IRS.
Taxation. Right now you’re off the radar, and until something changes there is no reason to get on the radar. Don’t enter the US tax system unless you absolutely must. (Even if you renounce, you can ignore the exit tax filings etc. if you don’t have US assets to worry about.)
Renouncing. Since relinquishing costs the same as renouncing, take whichever approach is the least likely to raise questions and cause problems. That probably means renouncing, should you decide it’s worth it for you to shed the US citizenship.
Hi Nonoymous,
I agree because if that were the case then EVERY dual citizen who feels basically forced into maintaining an American passport for ANY REASON is up that same river, and that would be nonsensical in a world full of legal dual citizens.
Thanks again. I have no US assets for sure, nor anything like that here. As I mentioned early on, we live simply, and I guess given my modest accounts and current status, I’m not on any “radar” – but at the same time, I don’t want to see our lives slowly improve here only to be given horrible surprises down the road, especially over a citizenship I do not want, or need, or identify with.
Correcting a typo – up that same RIVER not boat. Four hours of sleep, over this. I have a lot to think about in any case, thank you everyone.
@merrick
Slow down, no need to overthink things. Get some sleep. You have no immediate problems that need solving.
Re “In regards to Virgin, it is the policy that UK Passports list place of birth and not country.”
I don’t understand – if a passport lists place of birth, does that not also define the country?
FnO
No
Depends on town/city of birth.
A US born person with a Boston MA birthplace who acquires a UK passport can argue it’s Boston Lincolnshire UK. You would have to also practice a British accent 🙂
So you may be US born but are lucky enough to have a corresponding UK town name in your acquired passport .
Those early settlers to the colonies were not very imaginative in naming their new settlements.
Manchester NH etc…there are hundreds of them.
The Swiss are one better and state place of origin, usually where your family originates, but if you naturalize in Switzerland you will have your Canton/town as place of origin.
I sleep better at night, feel joyous in the day, & feel a sense of relief having relinquished.
I may be one of the last to do so w/o a fee, actually.
@heidi, foreign town/city names don’t appear on UK passports. My British one issued n 2012 only gives my US state of birth, not the city as well.
@Medea
My child’s US CITY of Birth appears on her UK passport, not the State. She was a dual at birth. That place has a corresponding UK city and she has used this to her advantage with banks. I guess it depends on how your parents recorded your birth at the British consulate records of UK births abroad. The UK registration of foreign births just asked ‘place of birth’ when we recorded it. Maybe your parents put down a State rather than the city.
I was born in the UK and my UK passport also has place of birth as my city, my spouse too has city place of birth.
@heidi, as does my British born husband’s passport.
Nope, my birth details with the British consulate at the time go right down to the hospital I was born in, in the city I was born in, in the state I was born in. I have the actual certificate that was issued at the time so no mistake on my parents’ part.
Unfortunately I don’t have any of my previous UK passports to check whether this might be a recent change for foreign born UK citizens or not. Or it could be that as the city has the same name as the state, they simply opted to put the state only. But it certainly wouldn’t pass for British!
That’s unfortunate.
All my US born dual UK/US kids have their city or even a small US town on their UK passports, no state.
I had to register their births with the UK consulate in Washington. When we applied later for separate UK passports for them, we had to send their UK certificates of recorded foreign births (not their US birth Certs).
The UK passport application has always just asked for ‘place of birth’ which everyone in the UK puts down as the town or city, not the county eg you would put Manchester rather than Lancashire.
The town or City of US birth has always appeared on their UK passports, it has never included the State.
I expect as your city of birth is also a State you were unlucky!
@heidi, yes it could well be. I always put down city and state when filling in such forms, but I guess they decided the state was enough. Interesting that it doesn’t have USA after it either, which I would have expected being I’m not UK born. Still, no mistaking it for a British birth place so I guess it’s not really needed.
@ Medea
Yes, I guess if it were Oklahoma or Kansas, the UK passport office could have left off the ‘city’ at some stage. Still no real loss to you as I don’t think there is an Oklahoma or Kansas in the UK. I did however find a New York in Lincolnshire!
Curious about the differences I looked at my passports:
UK old passport: City plus country (England)
UK current passport: City, no country
Canada current passport: City plus country (GBR)
USA recently cancelled passport: Country only (United Kingdom)
My birthplace city has the same as a well-known US city but there’s no confusion at the US border as the Canadian passport clearly shows it’s not the US one. I won’t use the UK passport to enter the USA so no confusion there. Using the UK passport to enter Canada is no longer allowed for Canadian citizens.
If I have to go into the US, my NEXUS trusted traveller card is easier to use than a passport, and the NEXUS card has no birthplace information actually printed on it. After renouncing US citizenship, I applied to renew my NEXUS card, and had to schedule an interview appointment. Appointments for the Birch Bay-Lynden Road office near Blaine WA were available much sooner than at YVR Vancouver airport. No questions were asked about renouncing – only about whether I had visited certain majority Muslim countries. Some people who had visited those countries, or who were dual nationals of them, have had NEXUS cards confiscated or denied.
I don’t know if Global Entry and APEC business cards have place of birth printed on them. But i am sure that at most if not all places an officer can look the file up for these and NEXUS cards.
I wonder if some of the differences are also due to when and where the passport was issued. My last one was done via Paris as that was the European centre for British passports at the time. But since then all passport renewals for the whole world now go to Durham in the UK for processing. Previous passport to the current one was issued from the embassy here in Bern iirc.
Global Entry
http://www.fasttrackpassportcontrol.com/index.php/apply-online/apply-global-entry-online?gclid=CPPixKK91dICFTAo0wodE40EIg
Up to 2008 or 2009 UK passport applications for people in Canada were handled in Ottawa. After that they went to Washington DC. In August, 2013, processing moved to Durham England. I see on various UK passports I had that the (issuing) “authority” has varied from “British High Commission Ottawa,” to “FCO” and then most recently to “IPC”.
The link in Heidi’s post is to a third-party processing service which charges US$149.99 on top of the government fees. If you don’t need hand holding when applying for a NEXUS, Global Entry, or Sentri trusted traveller card, apply direct at https://goes-app.cbp.dhs.gov/and save your money.
@fn0
Of course, I was just curious as to the questions asked….driving license, etc, etc….!?
It is much more intrusive than the ESTA.
Nexus application requires
– passport, citizenship documents, or landed immigrant-type card to prove citizenship or permanent resident status,
– other documents(s) such as driver license to demonstrate residence address
-address history and employment history for the last 5 years,
-any criminal history or previous immigration or customs violations
At the interview you may be asked your plans and reasons to visit the other country, and which other countries you have travelled to.
Pretty much the same sort of stuff to produce as when they pull you aside seeking to find a reason to deny entry, e.g because they chose to believe you are trying to immigrate or work not visit, or are otherwise inadmissable. If you ever smoked a joint even just once in university 20 years ago you can be permanently banned.
http://royalmusingsblogspotcom.blogspot.ca/2017/03/leiningen-princely-weddings.html
A royal renunciant;
“……Isabelle Franziska Sophie Heubach is the daughter of Hans Rainer Heubach and his wife, Gabriella. Her father is the head of Heubach, a firm that the family has owned for more than 600 years.
http://www.heubachcolor.de/about-heubach/preamble/
http://www.pcimag.com/articles/102099-heubach-celebrates-210-year-anniversary
In 2012, Miss Heubach renounced her US citizenship. She was born on January 27, 1989, perhaps in the United States, as Heubach has its US headquarters in Fairless Hills, Pennsylvania. The US subsidiary was founded in 1988.”