Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@AD203, congrats, and thank you for offering help to others in your situation.
It is only through this kind of altruism and generosity that we have been able to help others extricate themselves, to create pushback, and to resist efforts to make us and this situation and associated issues invisible, and official efforts to shroud it with mystery and fear.
Hey AD!
Sorry I missed your message– been a busy (work) week for me + finally getting my FINAL tax paperwork sorted the day you got your CLN.
I am “free” & so are you! What timing! 😉
Now, you can exhale & feel the load slip off of your shoulders…
🙂
Hi all,
It’s late again– how does it get to be 1am so quickly!
I filed my *final* tax paperwork Friday afternoon. I sent it registered w/tracking/delivery confirmation as AU post said they no longer offer signature?? Idk– I’m not a fan. Cost $46 to send one to TX & one to PA (8854).
I ended up sending a 1040 accounting for up to my relinquishment date. Same for the 8854. Also sent the 4868 extension form + fbars reported.
Thanks to everyone for your information & experiences. It’s just been so good to have a place to ask questions.
Now, I have to put together my time-line & submit it here to the “posts/experiences by country”. Not sure if my situation will be helpful (an odd one), but at least I can tell you the general bits about the embassy I used.
Thanks again everyone! 🙂
@Jane, well done and now you can start enjoying life again. It’s all over, done and dusted. (Big Smile!)
Jane,
Congrats on finishing the final paperwork!!! You’re about a year ahead of us. We (me, husband and adult daughter) have our renunciation appointment in Sydney on Thursday.
Congratulations….glad the CLN came quickly…what a relief.
@AD203
Congratulations!!!!!!
@Jane
Congratulations on getting your final paperwork done — as far as I’m concerned, there aren’t enough exclamation points in world to celebrate that feat! It’s something I won’t have to do until next year, but I’m already taking notes (8854 to TX and PA, 4868, FBARs, 1040).
The FBARs usually have an end-of-year value; did you use the date of your CLN instead of December 31st? Logically, that makes sense to me but I thought I’d ask since the rules can be so *&^% and often counter-intuitive.
@WestCoaster
I did everything up to CLN date. I also wrote that end date at the tops of the 8854’s, 1 Jan – my date of CLN 2015. On the top of those forms (& 1040), I wrote “Relinquished US citizenship XX/XX/15” as a way of explanation.
I’m still reeling about the carnage in my home town of Orlando, Florida… 🙁
@Jane
Thanks, that’s really helpful — I’m not kidding when I said that I was taking notes.
I hadn’t read the news before your comment, but that’s just…I don’t have the words. Terrible, heartbreaking, shocking.
Hello,
I am an accidental American. I was born in Europe to an American father and a German mother. After my parents divorced, my mother moved to Canada with her new husband. I was 7. I have never lived, worked or filed taxes in the US (up until recently, had no idea I had too). In April 2002, I made an oath to the Queen to become a Canadian citizen with the understanding that I was loosing my American citizenship by doing so. Since then I have not used an American Passport (it expired 2006) although I have travelled numerous times to the States using my Canadian passport, I have never voted or used the US Consulate in anyway. I don’t even have a SSN!! All this time I considered myself no longer a US citizen. Recently I was chatting with my financial advisor and he had indicated that if I did not have a Loss of Citizenship certificate, I was still considered an American. I am freaking out!!! I have read many posts on this site and am very confused at what to do. I believe that I relinquished my citizenship 14 years ago, however I do not have that certificate. Do I go the US Consulate in Calgary and let them know I relinquished, or will they make me renounce. Will I have to file 5 years of taxes (something I can not afford) and will they make me pay the $2300? I just got married and do not want to burden my spouse with the IRS breathing down our necks should I be “discovered”. How should I proceed? Any advice would be much appreciated. Thank you.
@Sandra, are you a troll? Because your post is almost word for word the same as S.B.’s here:
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/relinquishment/#comments
I posted this the other day but it got lost in the IBS ether somewhere.
In 2012, I received a paper Social Security statement. In the time since, I’ve moved twice. In AU, you have to pay to have mail forwarded ($100+ per year!). So, I tried to contact SS to update my details & also to enquire about not receiving a statement since then. I asked how I was supposed to update my details & the person emailed back that the statement is updated when you file your taxes & that you can view your statement online. This was the last response:
“We located your SSN record. However, we can only update Social Security benefit records. Since you are not yet receiving Social Security benefits, there is no record to update. While you are not entitled to Social Security benefits, SSA uses the address in your Income Tax Returns to mail your Social Security Statement.”
Going online, you have to have a USA address in order to proceed. If you have this, you can view your statement. According to the person that I finally got a reply from, if you cannot access the online site, you have to use a form–> & they charge you $56.00!!!
http://www.socialsecurity.gov/online/ssa-7050.html
So, because I have no USA address, I will have a hell of a time accessing my Social Security if I EVER move from this house! Or, I’ll have to pay, FOREVER, to have my mail forwarded…
Is this NOT idiotic?? Has anyone here got any idea if this person who emailed me this info is correct?
Just when you think the USA gov’t couldn’t get any more murky & convoluted…smh!
PS: I’ve been trying to get a reply & answer since March 😛
@jane
I spent two years trying to get a meaningful response from the SSA in Baltimore. It wasn’t until I contacted the SSA at the US consulate in Frankfurt that I got a resolution by a German employee within 2 days! Find out which Consulate in Aus? deals with SSA issues and email them.
http://canberra.usembassy.gov/lodging-claim-ss.html
No one in Australia. The email is Manilla– which is where I already wrote. The other option they give is to go back to the embassy in Perth- who are the ones who were so incompetent re: relinquishing/CLN that I would doubt I’d get much from them…
I replied back to the woman who wrote to me & have claimed discrimination & requested escalating to someone who could help. They’ve locked me out from my OWN data & want me to pay ($192! if I want it itemized/certified) when everyone else can simply view theirs online.
I’ll let you know what (if anything) comes of it.
For any DS4079 fans out there… would love your help with an unusual circumstance. I am foreign born but while I was a minor, both my parents naturalized in USA thereby causing me to naturalize. I plan to renounce. My concern is that embassies have appointment checklists that include…:
…
Your most recent U.S. passport
Evidence of citizenship:
Your original or U.S. birth certificate or a certified copy (not a
photocopy), or
Certificate of U.S. Naturalization, or
Consular Report of Birth Abroad, or
Certificate of U.S. Citizenship
…
While I do have a valid and current US passport, I do not have ANY of the 4 further items listed as “Evidence of citizenship”. I have never had any of the 4 items because of the way I was naturalized. To me, it seems redundant to ask for evidence beyond the US passport since the passport itself is used as proof in most other contexts. It looks like requesting a “Certificate of Citizenship” takes 6-12 months! So I’m hoping to max my chances of success without ordering and waiting for a doc (just so that it can be immediately renounced! 🙂
My concern/question is threefold
1) Could this deficit prevent me from getting an appointment?
2) If I do manage to get an appointment, could this deficit cause an embassy worker reject my application?
3) If I do manage to submit application, could DOS use this deficit as grounds to deny my CLN request?
Thanks for reading thus far! If you have any ideas/opinions, thanks in advance. If you know of any attorneys and/or experts that could help, I’d be happy to pay for guidance.
Dana,
Firstly welcome here. I don’t have the answers you are looking for but I would agree that the fact that you have a US passport proves the US has recognized you as one of theirs so welcome to the club.
By choice I do not pay attention to US law but there are many here that will help you out, I am sure.
You do not state where you were born or if your parents registered you as born abroad. I assume they did as you have a passport. So where you were born is not relevant.
What I will suggest as others will also, is that you take your time while you plod through all the steps. Your initial reaction to hurry this up is very normal, but that may not be in your best interests right now.
So I will sit here with you keeping you company, until the Helpers show up as I am sure they will. Many have been through this and can offer you their expertise or at least their experience.
Watch, they will come any minute now. You are among friends and help is at hand. We are from many different time zones, so be patient and I know someone will respond.
Dana, As Ginny surmised, a number of us will chime in and you will get conflicting advice . Firstly, don’t rush.
i have no personal experience but judging by others Brock posters’ problems with birth certificates and so on, I suspect they will ask for something other than your passport which could delay your renunciation.
They are not however, legally, able to deny you a CLN. If you decide to go ahead and they demand further proof of your US citizenship, which you cannot provide, you could ask them if they do not consider you American. If not, you would need it in writing. Then you would save $2350.
Remember for everyone renouncing there are thousands trying to obtain US citizenship so that they consider anyone renouncing to be deranged.
So, ask yourself if you need the grief and expense. Ginny and many others refuse to play the game when the rules are fixed by the other side.
As I said on another thread, the whale that spouts is the one who gets harpooned. You can easily avoid being harpooned.
@Dana, from the Child Naturalisation Act 2000 it’s clear you don’t have to get a certificate of citizenship. What I would do is point this out to the embassy/consulate and ask if your parents’ naturalisation certificates are an acceptable substitute. These obviously show that they naturalised and that under the Act you would have become a US citizen.
Dana
As you were under 18 when your parents naturalized you automatically became a US citizen. After that, as a US citizen, before your first US passport could be issued, the State Department would have required evidence of citizenship, i.e. a U.S. birth certificate, Naturalization Certificate, Consular Report of Birth Abroad, or Certificate of U.S. Citizenship. If you were a child when your passport was issued then maybe your parents had provided one of these pieces of documentary evidence of citizenship, but never passed it on to you. It’s not impossible, but I doubt if the State Department would have issued a passport without it. These may not be helpful suggestions, but is there any possibility of finding the original passport application, and do you have enough information to complete an N-565 (Application for a replacement naturalization/citizenship document)?
Although you need to be a US citizen to get a US passport, the US passport is not proof of US citizenship. Doesn’t seem logical but it’s the same in Canada.
We’re always saying it’s difficult to come up with renunciation/relinquishment figures, but here’s some interesting info from Switzerland. Between April 2013 and April 2016 903 Americans ceased to live in the country. I wonder how many of those were because they simply changed their nationality. I was probably one of that total as I got my CLN in mid-April 2013 and would have been changing my nationality details on my Swiss residence permit at that time.
For those who have Microsoft Office here’s the link to the Swiss Migration Office’s breakdowns:
https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/fr/home/publiservice/statistik/auslaenderstatistik/archiv/2016/04.html
I don’t so can’t tell you exactly which breakdown is the one referred to.
Dana –
Not all Consulates will necessarily ask for proof of U.S. citizenship, and not all require DS-4079. I live in the UK but renounced at Amsterdam (to avoid DS-4079). I wasn’t required to provide proof of U.S. citizenship other than my (expired) U.S. passport.
May be worth gathering as much information as you can about the documents required by all Consulates within reasonable reach of where you live. Requesting an appointment to renounce would be one way to get this information from a Consulate, if it’s not shown on their website.
Thinking further – I did have to show my birth certificate, and I was born in the US, so that’s proof of citizenship. I guess if I’d been born abroad, I would have been asked how I acquired U.S. nationality, and would have had to provide evidence. So my comment above is probably not relevant. Apologies.
Dana,
Welcome to the “cluster-f*ck that is FATCA!
Even at Brock, the same…It is a nightmare…
I wish you much luck and good-Karma!
Dana,
I didn’t have to show my birth certificate in Sydney. They did not require form DS4079, just a laundry list of documents. They do say to send scans of US passport and, if applicable, US naturalization certificate.
I agree with Duke: