Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 2
US RELINQUISHMENT RENUNCIATION.m2
Above is a link to data we are compiling on Relinquishments and Renunciations — a work in progress.
(We are starting Part 2 as Part 1 has now over 1,000 comments.) Link to “Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 1”
This Relinquishment and Renunciation database corresponds with the Consulate Report Directory, which tracks individual experiences for each Consulate, along with a timeline chart.
Note: We are using numbers instead of blog names for this public posting so there will be no compromise of private information. Your facts will help give a snapshot of relinquishment and renunciation activity and where that occurs.
Please submit information in the comments below (or someone can contact you privately if you leave a message).
This database and the Consulate Report Directory have proven valuable resources for those new to the subject of relinquishment and renunciation. They can see numbers for and read others’ experiences of relinquishment or renunciation at various US consulates throughout the world — as reported by participants of the Isaac Brock site.
Thanks for your addition to the Relinquishment and Renunciation database. Your input will definitely help others.
The net worth limit on 8854 to avoid covered expatriate status is $2m – the $626000 is the capital gain you can exclude if you’re a covered expatriate. If your assets are below $2m, you fill in only parts I, IV (section A only) & V — leave the rest of the form blank. (I’m looking at the 2016 version of the form).
If you include your share of the house on 8854, it will show up only on the balance sheet on the line for foreign real property (line 16) – with an offset for your share of the mortgage on line 22. You don’t put any description, just numbers. I have no clue how the IRS would find out about any omissions unless they audit you (and I have not heard of any minnows having form 8854 audited, though there’s always a first time). If they were to audit (again, not likely), they might ask you to prove that you did not own any part of the house.
Thank you for your answer. Just so I get all the numbers the day before I renounce:
When I summit this form 8854 I guess I still have to do all the other Tax return forms as I have done previous years up until my renunciation date. As well as FBAR.
Your final (part year) return will technically be a “dual-status return”. As you will not be a US citizen/taxpayer on the final day of the year, you are supposed to file a 1040NR (with “dual-status return” marked across the top) and attach a 1040 (with “dual-status statement” marked across the top) containing your income from 1 January through the day before you renounce. There was a long discussion earlier this year in another thread (http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/renunciation/ – scroll back to May) about exactly how the numbers flowed from the 1040 to the 1040NR, though I’m not sure how critical this is.
I filed an FBAR for my final part year – including only accounts that were open at any point BEFORE I renounced with the highest balance for the period before I renounced.
Renounced 17 Nov. Form 8854 Schedule A foreign pensions. I have declared on my FBAR my retirement accounts. I understand it that I deduct my contributions it would be the fictious gain that will go in under column C. Same with my portion of our house. I deduct improvements and purchase price in Column B and the fictious gain in Column C. What do they mean by other assets? Can you give examples, Please.
Then Schedule B Line 9: I am a sole proprietor and declare on 1040 Schedule C-EZ where I declare the net income from my work. I take it this would be the gross of the same.
Assets mean anything you own/share, car, boat, jewelry, watches, paintings, gold teeth 🙂
If poss try to keep everything below 2,000,000 to avoid covered status otherwise pensions become a problem. Unless you have photos of your yacht on facebook how do they know what you own?
You should read
More info, assets
@Ryan, short answer, yes it’s possible. Once you renounce you revert back to your old non-US status same as anyone else. So far they haven’t managed to make the Reed Amendment on immigration workable and there doesn’t seem to be much enthusiasm to do so in future despite Mr Reed’s efforts to make them.
Could anyone perhaps advise me on filling out the Renunciation Form DS-4079?
I am low income but have managed to get all the required years of tax returns done. My situation is very straight forward. Have lived outside of the US for much of 40 years as I also have an Irish passport.
How precise do I need to be in providing information on the form in terms of dates? For instance- I do not know the exact dates of when I arrived in London to live and then returned to US to live there for 5 years. That was almost 35 years ago. Also don’t know exact date of becoming Irish citizen.
Did not save old passports. And anyway, there would be no info on them as I would enter the US with my American passport and then come back with Irish passport.
As long as I estimate close to the dates required will this be acceptable?
Thanks so much!
I would go ahead and just use aprox dates, if you don’t know they sure don’t either!
DS 4079 is not really required for a renunciation only reliquishment, but some embassies religiously continue to use it.
I was also dealing with dates from about 40 years ago, with one return (of several months) to the US early on. I couldn’t recall exact dates of entry and exit, but had pretty good idea of the months, so I put the 1st day of the month (it might actually have been the end of the previous month) and handwrote “approx.” They didn’t mention anything about it and I got my CLN.
Hi Medea and Heidi,
Thank you for your responses. They’re very helpful in making sure that I’ll make the right decision.
Could anyone comment on this? is this just scaremongering of the worst kind?
“”And don’t think the IRS won’t know you’ve expatriated without Form 8854. State Department regulations require the IRS to be informed when a certificate of loss of nationality is issued. So if you have serious tax problems, expatriate without dealing with them, and then fail to file Form 8854, the IRS won’t necessarily go away. In a worst-case scenario the IRS could even refer your case to the Justice Department, which could issue a criminal indictment. It could then notify Interpol of the indictment. Interpol would in turn issued a “red notice,” requesting assistance worldwide for your arrest and extradition to the United States. The same sequence of events (less extradition) could occur if you travel to the United States. Just a word to the wise!””
Did you happen to notice the date? And also the source?
There’s a world of difference between renouncing when you have existing serious tax debts and renouncing when you have never been in the system. Nestmann is sometimes interesting but in the end you’ve got to remember he’s trying to sell something. Most countries won’t provide the IRS with collection assistance if the debt was incurred while the person was a resident citizen of that country. As far as the Justice Department, criminal indictments, Interpol, etc., unless there are vast sums involved, yeah, its scaremongering.
Pure scaremongering on their part. If you’re not in the system to start with the IRS can’t even give a reason why the country you reside in should try and help them. They would have no idea if you even owe the US anything.
If you do have serious US tax problems then it could be a different scenario, but even then as maz57 said unless vast sums are involved the IRS isn’t likely to come calling. And if you’ve never filed US returns how are the IRS supposed to know how much you could even owe?
The IRS are capable of doing internet searches in their hunt for revenue. I know that in the UK one is able to look on line for registered companies and their net worth. So when one says “ don’t tell them anything they don’t already know”, perhaps one should caution “unless they may be able to find out.”
Regarding the soft letter from the IRS to renunciants,wouldn’t this create an real opening for expats to claim some form of coercion,intimidation from the USG.? Woudn’t this be the first instance of open IRS solicitation ?
I wait with interest to see if I receive such a ‘soft letter’. I was never in the US tax system, and decided there was no point in entering. I renounced in September last year. My name is now different to the one on my Social Security number and, of course, the SS number wasn’t recorded anywhere on the renunciation papers or CLN. What will the IRS actually do? Try to match up CLNs with tax returns? Simply write fishing letters to last known addresses?
I sometimes wonder if these announcements are made simply to try to frighten people into compliance. The IRS must know full well that the compliance condors will spread the news on their behalf.
@BirdPerson, SSN may well be on the embassy’s paperwork though. When I renounced I forgot I’d got one and the embassy dug it up off my previous passport renewal application form.
Then they won’t have mine. My last US passport was from before SS numbers were requested. Nor did the Embassy ask me for a SS number.