Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
Thanks Jane. We’ve tried our best to comply with all their incomprehensible rules. That will just have to do.
And that is why I believe we can never again sleep safe. That does NOT mean live in fear. That means we can never let our guard down. We must forever keep a sharp watch and a keem weather eye for foul winds and rouge seas.
And it should not be thus.
But it is.
@Jane
“The governments of our chosen lands must protect all their citizens, including those with the taint of US personhood.”
The only MUST. But to do so, requires all other world nations to stand against this blatant extortion.
It’s not as simple as that. We are liabilities to our banks and new nations. As long as banks face creditable threats from the US, we are at risk. Banks have any number of reasons to turn down loans, deny accounts and close accounts (I know this from personal experience). Even if our new governments pass laws making it illegal for banks to deny services to former USCs based solely upon the fact that they were once USCs, banks still have many other legal reasons to give as their reasons for denying servics. The reason behind them using one of these other reasons will be that we are former USCs and they don’t what the liability that we bring, but they can’t use that as a reason so they will use a different reason.
To end this, our new governments would have to give us status as a protected group and make it illegal to deny us services for any reason. Then our banks would have to follow more and more US banking laws resulting in more and more of our new nations’ wealth being sucked out through us to the US. Eventually, our new nations will be little more than vassel states to the US, following whichever US laws the US wishes to apply to them or risk economic destruction. Some would argue that this is the current reality.
Or, our new nations could just say “No” to the US and have their economies wrecked by the penalty structure of FATCA. This route is even more problematic as our nations have already signed on to this. Our new governments would have to violate the agreements they have signed, and that never looks good to the public.
Some have suggested renegotiating the FATCA IGAs. What do our new governments have to offer the US in such a negotiation? The US is getting exactly what it wants and will not give it up unless something better is offered. What would that be? Would it help us if it is better for the US?
As has been reported at IBS, the new model tax treaty gives the US sole power to determine who is and is not a citizen for tax purposes. If your nation signs this, then any pieces of paper stating that you are a citizen of your new nation and no longer a USC are worth less than used toilet paper. Not theory as the US has already done this by requiring CLNs after the fact.
I seem to be one of very few here looking ahead to where this is going, and that terrifies me. If this group, who have been through so much, are going through so much care not to seriously concider where this could end, then no one will.
Those who have earned the temporary reprieve of a CLN, by all means, take a well deserved break. After your R&R, you MUST go back to the trenches and fight each attempt by your new goverment to cave in to US demands.
As no one can resist nonstop presure of the amount the US can apply, those of us who are still USCs MUST do all we can to get FATCA repealed and end CBT.
Unless these three objectives are met, we can win every battle but will still lose the war
@JapanT
You think many here aren’t aware of many of the things you’ve mentioned?
You think you’re “one of the few looking ahead”?
I think you’re mistaken. I believe many here (and elsewhere) know what is at stake (or they’d be long gone after getting their CLN).
I, however, choose NOT to live my life in fear and thinking only of the terrible things that MIGHT lie ahead. Just because they could happen, doesn’t mean that they will. In any case, my worry will not solve one damn thing and will only result in an ulcer for me or worse.
Yes, this could be the beginning of a US slave empire. If that’s the case, think of the silver lining: our problems fade into complete insignificance! (that’s a joke)
Personally, I prefer an optimistic outlook.
I believe that this house of cards of FATCA and CBT will come tumbling down sooner or later.
I hope that sanity will prevail in the world.
I choose to hope.
JapanT said:
The US is not living up to its side of the IGA reciprocal information exchange agreement. Many of the IGAs have a provision similar to Article 10 paragraph 3 of the Australian IGA:
And Article 6 is the one that specifies that the US will reciprocate. However, we know that the US is not able to reciprocate. In particular, they have no way (and no intention) of reporting on the accounts of Australian citizens resident in the US. Australia should respond to this lack of reciprocity by dialing back the information provided to the IRS and providing only what the IRS is willing to provide to the ATO. At most, the US will provide information on the accounts of Australian residents. And, most likely, that information will include only reportable interest and dividends, not account balances, account numbers, or Australian tax file numbers. So the ATO should only provide interest and dividend information to the IRS (without SSNs) on the Australian accounts of US residents.
So, all of us who are citizens of an IGA country should be making it clear to our elected representatives that they have an opportunity to amend the IGA to better protect their own residents (and their own tax base), and that they should make use of this opportunity.
You’re absolutely right, Karen. Our government representatives need to answer what they will do when that date rolls around. This is, AGAIN and next, the opportunity to protect their US-tainted (many without consent in the matter of having been defined so) citizens and permanent residents. Journalists COULD play a big roll here as well. Will they or why can’t they ask the questions to the appropriate *leaders* of our governments — the ones we elected to represent best represent ALL in our countries
@Hard Pressed
I am aware that others here are as concerned as I am where this is heading. Indeed, it from following up on many postings here that led me to believe ther are correct.
But many here also seem to be lulled into false sense of security believing that they are forever shielded by their CLN. Others are actively promoting this very dangerous myth.
Given the previous actions and current posture of the US, it is not a question of “if” but “when”. Not a question of “what might happen”, but one of “when will it happen”.
The fuse has been lit. It is unwise to trust that it will burn out or the charge is a dud. We must cut the fuse.
Or, that is the track this train is on. It is unwise to trust in the belief that it will derail.
We must derail it.
The hunted do not have the luxury of ignoring the hunter.
@JapanT
As far as being “shielded by their CLN”, frankly I believe they are. It is my opinion (and you’re certainly welcome to your own differing opinion, of course), that the US can push this ridiculous monstrosity they have created only so far. I believe they have already pushed it too far, and they will now reap their just rewards. Of course, I could be wrong.
It is worthwhile to keep in mind that it is a human trait to extrapolate trends. If things seem to be going better and better, we (wrongly) assume that they will continue on that way forever. On the other hand, when things get continuously worse, we (equally wrongly) assume that Armageddon is around the corner.
@Hard Pressed
I hope you are right, but I see no mechanism to cause them to reap their just desserts.
For example, let’s say THE lawsuit prevails and the CTA can not provide the IRS with the data it wants. Then what? The IRS will impose the 30% noncompliance fines upon all Canadian FIs. That, I believe is a given. But what comes after that?
One can hope that that would be the last straw and Canada would retaliate….but how, in which way?
One could further hope that other nations would see the effects of the fines the US imposed upon Canadian banks and get angry enough to retaliate preemptively against the US for its violation of their sovereignty.
Sadly, their just ain’t a whole hell of a lot of cases in human history of nation’s taking such action, at least not against a superpower that many are dependant upon in some degree.
History paints a very different picture.
JapanT said “For example, let’s say THE lawsuit prevails and the CTA can not provide the IRS with the data it wants. Then what? The IRS will impose the 30% noncompliance fines upon all Canadian FIs. That, I believe is a given. But what comes after that?”
Good question.
In practice, though, I don’t believe it’s an either/or situation. There would probably be talks, rather than an instant reversion to naked FATCA. And let us hope the talks would lead to a reasonable outcome. Countries do have to find a way to co-operate peacefully on cross-border taxation issues, if they want to continue trading with one another. Retaliation does not have a good track record as a path to a workable solution.
@iota
I know but the current US administration has its sights set on something and it is not just going to sit by and let a court decision in another country stop it. Hell, it isn’t even letting US court cases stop it from doing what it wants.
The are irrational, unreasonable and have no regard for any law nor anything else that stands in their way. They are obsessed. The only “law” they recognize is “I want therefore I get”. Youcan’t negotiate with such people. There are mad.
It would be interesting to see what happens if The lawsuit succeeds.
I do hope that I am not the only one who wonders sbout what happens after the case is over, one way or the other?
@JapanT said: “…the current US administration has its sights set on something and it is not just going to sit by and let a court decision in another country stop it. Hell, it isn’t even letting US court cases stop it from doing what it wants.”
There hasn’t been a court ruling against FATCA, has there? I’d be interested to hear about it if I’ve missed something.
@iota
Against FATCA, no. Against other government policies, yes. The admin and its officials have been found in contempt of Congress numerous times and of the court a few times.
Immigration, the EPA and moratoria against activities after the BP oil spill are a few examples.
The first time the US extorts 30% from a substantial payment to a Canadian FI, it will lead to court and the FATCA withholding will be found to be illegal. The 30% is a bluff.
The lawlessness of the current admin. of the US has been a hot topic for me long before I learned of FATCA. Even before Mr. Snowden reveled what many believed to be true.
This admin has a very long history of ignoring the law, Congress and the courts. While there have not yet been any court action against FATCA for them to disregard, it would be foolish to think they would not given the numerous times they have with other laws.
@Duke oD
Found illegal in which court? Not that it matters, as this admin has a history of ignoring US courts on a wide range of issues. What makes FATCA so special that this admin would follow court decisions against it when they have ignored the courts and many other issues?
Do you believe that O would follow a Canadian court’s decision? Why would he? It certainly has no more power than a US court does.
FATCA itself is illegal yet those who know enough about it to challenge it in court are found to be without standing to challenge it.
Obamacare violates many laws, yet was found to be constitutional by disregarding the determination of the same court that it was NOT a tax yet claiming it was in the court’s decision.
There is nothing about this issue that is not illegal and yet there it stands before us.
Don’t trust your future to the US adhering to any law.
US Court
Given this admin’s track record, it is unlikely that any decision by any US court would have any sway what so ever.
Yes, there is am election coming up, but the change of the President does not change out all the career civil servants who administer the law nor judges that agree with the current admin’s policies.
Don’t trust your future to them.
Wishful thinking Duke of Devon; wishful thinking … or is it?
The changes wrought by British banks already to this point would be very slow to change I’m certain were FATCA ever to evaporate – which I have a feeling will not now come to pass. Your emotional shield DofD against the associated risks seems to me to be much higher than many here given the nature of the advice you frequently administer. Indeed the nature of the advice you dished out to me at the time of my own primary concern came from the same hymnal. Or is it that a certain vulnerability makes you keep coming back to these boards? Forgive me for playing devil’s advocate – as I no longer post much here having myself now renounced – and feeling truly done and dusted – but might it not be time for you to move on now that your standing is so clear/fixed in your own mind? The energies you here employ could surely be valuably spent elsewhere.
With respect.
Meunier, An intriguing post; but you have left us hanging. Did it work out for you? Others may profit from your experience. With respect
Yes. Posted at the time.
Out of interest who has written to Senator Lindgren and did you get any response ?
FYI
U.S. Brokerage Accounts for Non U.S. Residents
http://www.profile-financial.com/videos/us-brokerage-accounts
Congrats!!!
@AD203, Congratulations! What a lovely way to start the weekend. Enjoy it!
Congratulations. Good to see that DoS is becoming more efficient!