158 thoughts on “1,313 published expatriates in Q1 Federal Register honour roll; 1,484 renunciants added to NICS for same period”

1. ‘Given that we have a finite life span, which is more of a “pipe dream”, RBT or easier renunciation?’

   I wonder if someone could persuade Congress to enact the Expatriation Act of 1868.

   I wonder if someone could persuade a court to uphold it.

   I bet the success rate would be 1 out of 2.

2. Calgary411 you said, ” @Paul S.

   Many would be interested in seeing an outline of your proposal for group advocated renunciation of US citizenship — just how that might proceed given the above US citizenship laws and policies.”

   Wow! Many would be interested? Outline of my proposal?

   How much will you pay me to reveal such deep dark secrets?

3. Joking aside, I’m not trying to incite. Don’t have a written proposal, just thoughts. One of those thoughts used to be that this place was a place that was accepting rather than disparaging of thoughts outside of the box. But it is not that place anymore. And if you are going to chase away people who think differently, why be angry or disappointed when your thoughts are also chased away by people who think differently, and have more power than you all do.

4. Paul S., I think we Canadians are paying more than enough on behalf of others, I’ll pass. Governments have seen to the fact that not much is left for those that actually earned, and their families.

5. Not a penny.

6. Since you asked, one suggestion: stop acting like Americans. Stop begging the abuser(USA) to stop abusing. You are letting the Canadian government off the hook. They (CDN government) view you as ‘US citizens abiding in Canada’. That is their excuse for not protecting you. If you act like Americans, you play into the Canadian government’s hand. You agree that it is the USA which is the problem. You agree that as US citizens, it is a problem between you and the US government. Start acting like Canadians rather than Americans. Demand your government protect you.

7. @Paul S.: Well, I did have one proposal for how other governments could let people renounce US citizenship without involving the US government:
   http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2016/05/22/what-canada-every-other-country-should-copy-from-the-philippines/

   That said, like several others in this thread I am not Canadian and never lived in Canada so can’t speak for the Canadians. The reason folks where I live (Hong Kong) are focused on fighting the U.S. government:

   1. Here we have no laws on access to basic banking services and no prohibition on discrimination by citizenship. Looked from several angles and a court case here is basically a non-starter.
   2. The bureaucracy & public think US citizens are all either rich expats working in finance or rich returnees who regret fleeing the country and getting a second passport. So they have zero sympathy for us and their only advice is “just pay up and renounce, otherwise STFU we need to save the banks and banks are more important than you”
   3. For those who want it, they don’t make it easy even to get local citizenship (particularly if you’re married to a non-local, and your kids have grown up & left or aren’t applying with you). I may just be lucky or slightly crazy; the overwhelming majority of expats I know could only solve their US citizenship problem by shaking their family tree until an Italian or Irish or some other distant ancestor from an unlimited jus sanguinis country fell out. That means, from the local government perspective there are almost no local citizens who care about this issue.

8. Paul S., you assume quite a bit. Never in my life have I “acted like an American”. I did, however, pay the $450 extortion fee to keep the US government out of my family’s financial business. Like the families of hostages pay ransoms. I also included my uncensored opinions to the US government at EVERY opportunity.

   NEWSFLASH – They don’t give a crap. Neither does the current Canadian gov’t that ranted away at the previous gov’t when they signed the IGA. Hypocrites, all of them.

9. In view of the Trump administration’s plan to cut the State Department’s budget by 29% and considering that the Bureau of Consular Affairs is not fully self-supporting from user fees, I would expect that fees charged by the State Department to generally go up in the coming year. This would be a normal reaction by a bureaucracy when a budget is cut.

   Having said that, the renunciation/ relinquishment fee of US$2,350 is outrageous. Germany, as has been discussed on this board, has not been requiring naturalizing US citizens to renounce their US citizenship if their monthly income is less than the State Department’s renunciation fee.

10. @PaulS:

    “Start acting like Canadians rather than Americans. Demand your government protect you.”

    Probably won’t get you far unless it can be shown that your government has a legal duty to protect you in the way(s) you suggest (negotiating with the US over the administrative costs of documentation of loss of US citizenship, or using public funds to subsidise renunciation of US citizenship).

    Or alternatively, can be persuaded to pass legislation embracing such duties.

    IANAL. Or a Canadian. Or a USC.

11. Finally had a chance to read this entire thread of comments.

    Badger: Thank you for mentioning the UN Complaint in your response to Paul S. It’s always good to see that it hasn’t been forgotten! 🙂

    The UN Complaint is indeed one of many attempts that has been made by this community to bring our issue to the attention of the powers in this world who are, supposedly, able to act on such matters. Like “The Mom”, I am very frustrated by the fact that our Complaint is coming up on its third anniversary with NOTHING having been done. However, we also know that three years is the average time it takes for one of these complaints to reach consideration stage. Pretty shocking, but there is nothing we can do to change this.

    It may well be (if the US government doesn’t get completely derailed by Trump, his FBI firings and his Russian connections) that this fall there will be new tax laws put in place by the US and it may very well be that these new laws will include a switch to RBT &/or the demise of FATCA. I am, unabashedly, one of those here who refuses to let go of the hope currently on the table until it is a stinking corpse. As a blogger said many years ago, the fat(ca) lady has not yet sung. When she does I will begin fighting on another front. And that would involve the renunciation question that Paul S. has asked.

    Paul S.: I am one of those here who is VERY interested in working on a way to bring attention to the WHOLE renunciation ball of wax including the preposterous (and illegal) fee. On the heels of the UN Complaint already in play I penned a first draft of an official “Complaint” against the fee and the other “trappings” of renunciation that would-be renouncers are currently faced with. The problem is this: who do we send this complaint to? I would be very interested in your ideas.

    If the currently planned tax reforms do NOT contain relief for us it will mean that in seven years NO ONE who is in a position to act will have lifted a finger on our behalf. Who can we lobby? Who will listen? Who’s left? Billions of words have been written and, God knows, countless hours of our time and energy expended. Notwithstanding my abiding hope that none of these preparations will be needed, I believe we should be seriously considering an attack against the obstacles to renunciation that have been thrown in our path by the US government. And it is the US government we’re going to have to fight. As others have stated, our own countries have thrown us to the wolves and washed their hands of us.

12. “I am, unabashedly, one of those here who refuses to let go of the hope currently on the table until it is a stinking corpse.”

    Give it up.

    I’ve even just had a lawyer, one who has been known for helping the poor, call me a tax protester because I tried to cope with the ways the US government violated US law. Even when I live in countries with higher tax rates than the US, even when I sent overpayments to the US for the two exceptional years 1997 and 1999 and the IRS refunded the excess, somehow I’m a tax protester over $0.00 amounts of taxes so the IRS is not supposed to credit me for the amounts of withholding that Monica Hernandez embezzled.

    The lawyer also said I have mental problems. Well no shit. Along with heart problems and everything else. Oddly the judge in Tax Court didn’t think I had mental problems, but that was when I still didn’t know how much more abuse was coming.

    With friends like that, who needs enemies.

    Give up. We’re all tax protesters and terrorists. No one is going to change a law, or even uphold an existing law, to let us get away with it. There’s only one way out.

13. “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” — Edmund Burke
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of despair is for good men and women to give up hope.” — E. B.

    I’m with you, MuzzledNoMore.

14. Muzzled No More: “The problem is this: who do we send this complaint to? I would be very interested in your ideas.”

    Me: How about a lawsuit against the US State Dept., on the basis that the fee represents an unreasonable infringement of the (US recognized) right to expatriate? You’d need a wannabe expat–preferably a poor one without too many skeletons in their closet–to sue over.

15. “How about a lawsuit against the US State Dept., on the basis that the fee represents an unreasonable infringement of the (US recognized) right to expatriate? ”

    I think Allison Christians has suggested somewhere that the fee could be challenged in court. It would be interesting to see this pursued.

16. The court would rule that the court lacks jurisdiction, and/or that the US didn’t waive sovereign immunity.

    It doesn’t matter if that’s true or not, it’s just how the court would rule.

    And as tax evading terrorists, none of us should expect a court to listen to us saying any differently.

17. I said:

    “I think Allison Christians has suggested somewhere that the fee could be challenged in court. ”

    Yes. Tax Notes interview, about 12 minutes in.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GrSxlcx49hY

18. Zla’od said:

    ” You’d need a wannabe expat–preferably a poor one without too many skeletons in their closet–to sue over.”

    Better to have a plaintiff who has complied, is up to date with taxes, and would not be covered. It’s not a welfare /poverty issue. A ruling that the fee can stand, but should be waived for poor people, would not be a good outcome. What’s needed is a ruling that the fee for documenting renunciation can only cover actual administrative costs, not politically motivated purposes.

19. Another suggestion for citizens of IGA Model 1 countries: document your relinquishment of US citizenship to your government, showing that you have lost your US citizenship by committing an expatriating act with the intention of losing your US citizenship. Ask your government to confirm that it accepts your loss of US citizenship. Show the confirmation to FIs instead of a CLN.

20. The US is forcing people to take other citizenships that they might not otherwise take.

    What does this mean to the countries that accept them? It means they are naturalizing citizens who aren’t really fully committed to being their citizens. Should countries like Canada care about this?

21. The UK makes pretty sure they’re committed by charging whopping fees for visas leading to settlement – and further whopping fees every step of the way.

    I got in for free but those days are long long gone.

22. @iota

    It’s still probably a small investment to make to no longer be a US taxpayer, although the value of a UK passport has taken a dip lately (presumably).

23. @Bubblebustin – UK citizenship tends to be sought by Americans mainly for marital reasons.

    For love, it’s worth it – for money, it’s not. 🙂

24. Zla’od: I’d love to see a lawsuit against the State Department over the renunciation issue but since we’ve got two expensive lawsuits in the works as it is I doubt a third one would be practical at this point. If it were, and if I didn’t have a spouse who has requested I stay off the front line, I would happily be the person, as Allison has suggested, who would walk into a consulate, demand a renunciation and refuse to pay the fee. The resultant denial of the renunciation would be my grounds to sue the State Department for obstruction of my right to renounce. Damn, I’d LOVE to do this!!! Any other takers? Any other ideas?

25. “Another suggestion for citizens of IGA Model 1 countries: document your relinquishment of US citizenship to your government, showing that you have lost your US citizenship by committing an expatriating act with the intention of losing your US citizenship. Ask your government to confirm that it accepts your loss of US citizenship. Show the confirmation to FIs instead of a CLN.”

    That’s an excellent suggestion, but how will it be implemented? The US will never consent to obey the Expatriation Act of 1868. How can we persuade other countries to uphold it? Add it to the ADSC lawsuit?