158 thoughts on “1,313 published expatriates in Q1 Federal Register honour roll; 1,484 renunciants added to NICS for same period”

1. @Paul S – The IRS doesn’t appear to pursue those who renounce without filing any tax forms. It’s quite difficult for them to know whether it would be worth spending the scarce resources chasing an expat, if they have no returns giving then the information. For all they know, you could be under the filing threshold.

   Once you’ve renounced, you’re no longer a US citizen.

2. @ iota if you have children living in US and you have some money to pass the inheritance to them then definitely not filing is not the best way.

3. @Harrison – I don’t live in Canada.

   Most USCs living outside the US don’t file US taxes, despite FATCA. Which is good news, as it proves the IRS is not as powerful as many Americans seem to believe. It’s not much comfort to those who are currently being affected by FATCA, I know, but it would be much depressing and scary if it really was impossible to stay under cover.

4. @MNM

   I was told by a US border agent that if I used my Canadian passport instead of my US I would be entering the US as a visitor only. It wouldn’t be the first time a border agent was wrong though.

5. @Harrison – “if you have children living in US and you have some money to pass the inheritance to them then definitely not filing is not the best way”

   I don’t.

   Everyone has to decide what is their best course of action in the light of their own circumstances.

6. iota, most people who want to renounce, what to get out cleanly, meaning they want Uncle Sam to consider them free to leave also. Plus, even if someone is not worried about what Uncle Sam thinks, $2,350 USD is a lot of money. So, my question still remains: has any group pursued helping US citizens renounce US citizenship (and US tax status) in a cheaper, easier manner than what is the current situation?

7. @Paul S – “most people who want to renounce, what to get out cleanly, meaning they want Uncle Sam to consider them free to leave also.”

   Some do, some don’t care what the US thinks as long as it won’t have repercussions for them.

   “Plus, even if someone is not worried about what Uncle Sam thinks, $2,350 USD is a lot of money. So, my question still remains: has any group pursued helping US citizens renounce US citizenship (and US tax status) in a cheaper, easier manner than what is the current situation?”

   Some self-relinquish, but of course that doesn’t get you a CLN.

   What sort of group action are you thinking of? Charitable funding? That should be possible.

8. iota, I am just looking for an answer to my question which is have there been any efforts to date to help people renounce US citizenship inexpensively and without being in Uncle Sam’s bad books? Not a charitable mission to raise funds for renunciation fees but a lobbying effort. Have Canadians put pressure on the Canadian government to assist them in getting rid of US citizenship? It is the least they could do considering they are so happy to hand Canadians over to the USA. Have any groups lobbied the US government for easier renunciation of US citizenship for long-term residents of other countries? The USA insists they want to tax Americans overseas, so wouldn’t it make sense to organize a push back with such a request?

9. @Paul S – I haven’t heard of any lobbying aling those lines. Maybe someone else may know of something.

10. @iota.
    My bad. I always thought you were Canadian. Maybe you live in a country that has forms passed out like Canada does. For most of us, it’s not the same situation. Plus you don’t have any children in US which is good since some of us do. Everyone has their own unique situation to deal with. As for me, I am getting tired of rejections from brokerages and banks and this SCE is again a stupid idea.
    @Paul.S, US govt is the strongest power in the world and abusing every lcountry and its own citizens and permanent residents. OECD wanted a law to enforce international taxation and it got US govt involved to tackle it but US govt did not sign any CRS agreement to enforce OECD laws. Do you think if any group can get a pushback against US? EU is getting a frustrating response from US about CRS so what makes you think your small group can get a pushback against the world’s superpower.? I am sorry to say I was searching for answers and then I came to this group and I got my answer. Just renounce and have a nice life. Get some money together for the fees, get a loan from a friend if you have and simply renounce. Please look at your individual situation first and read Phil Hodgen’s blog for more info.

11. @Harrison – “Everyone has their own unique situation to deal with.”

    Absolutely.

12. Didn’t somebody here establish that CLNs can be effectively faked? Not only to show to the bank, but even the border guards don’t have any way to scan it (or do they?) since there is no number, no centralized registry, no photo, etc.

13. iota, thanks for answering my question.

    harrison.super, You said, “EU is getting a frustrating response from US about CRS so what makes you think your small group can get a pushback against the world’s superpower.? I am sorry to say I was searching for answers and then I came to this group and I got my answer. Just renounce and have a nice life. ”

    I’m not suggesting that any group should be able to push USA into repealing FATCA or adopting RBT. What I am wondering is why people are not considering another out. One that should in theory be easier to get USA to agree to. Bean said it herself. The US doesn’t care about US citizens living abroad renouncing because there is no shortage of replacements. So, maybe there is a chance we can get people like her to live up to her word and support an easier route to renunciation for those who don’t want to be US citizens.

14. @ Zla’od,

    Re CLNs: DoS shares this information with DHS, and the consul at Toronto told me that the border guards can see it in the DHS database (but to always bring a copy of your CLN with you when going to the US anyway).

    DoS Inter-Agency Reporting Requirements

15. There are plenty of kind and friendly Homelanders on Twitter who state that they are willing to offer financial assistance to people who want to renounce US citizenship
    https://twitter.com/search?q=renounce+citizenship+ticket

    Maybe see if one of them will put their money where their mouth is =)

16. A fund to help people pay the renunciation fee could work, if someone was willing and able to put in the work to run it. Quite a few people might be prepared to donate to such a fund.

17. “So, my question still remains: has any group pursued helping US citizens renounce US citizenship (and US tax status) in a cheaper, easier manner than what is the current situation?”

    Yes, that group is the US Department of State. As far as I can see in the FAM, you can apply for a US passport, write on the application form that you performed whatever liberating act with the intent to relinquish US citizenship, and they have to give you a CLN for the price of a passport application.

18. iota, I was not suggesting crowd funding for the renunciation fee, but rather some sort of lobbying effort for a cheaper and easier renunciation with no compliance requirements. However, your fund raising idea gave me an idea. Maybe as part of a lobbying effort, a group of Canadians or Australians or ? could suggest the Canadian or Australian or ? government, if too wimpy to try to get a better deal from the US government (easier renunciation) could instead subsidize their citizens who want to renounce US citizenship. Say, pay a portion of the renunciation fee, and cost of compliance.

19. @Paul S, re; “….What I am wondering is why people are not considering another out. One that should in theory be easier to get USA to agree to. Bean said it herself. The US doesn’t care about US citizens living abroad renouncing because there is no shortage of replacements. So, maybe there is a chance we can get people like her to live up to her word and support an easier route to renunciation for those who don’t want to be US citizens….”.

    Well though Ms. Bean said there are plenty more would-be citizens – and therefore taxable persons queuing up to replace us, (and effectively said that we shouldn’t let the screen door hit us in our ungrateful insignificant traitorous butts on the way out) she didn’t mention anything about being willing to repeal the exit tax regime, Form 8854 and the rest of the onerous and intrusive taxation and form filing burdens that serve as a barrier to those renouncing, and are meant to effectively strip search those renouncing just in case there were some extraterritorial pennies in our extraterritorially located pockets and sofa cushions that the US might want to lay claim to, and just in case we’re really all criminal trillionaires in disguise trying to ‘flee’ the US with untaxed fortunes or proceeds of crime.

    Absurd as it is, the FATCAnatics and CBT apologists continue to act at once as if we’re ungrateful entirely replaceable and interchangeable, unpatriotic and unworthy of any voice or representation or consideration because we’re outside the US and act as if our citizenship means nothing to them and that no constitutional or legal or ethical duty – or even service is owed to us, AND at the same time they portray us as all probable wealthy criminal masterminds trying to ‘flee’ the US and abscond with assets they believe they have a right to seize based only on a parent or a geographical birthplace. Bean referred to those who have sizeable enough means to live/move ‘abroad’, as if no one was ever born a US citizen outside the boundaries of the US, and no one ordinary ever left it ever. One of the FATCAnatics (the chair?) dismissed the plight and circumstances of the witnesses as just to ignore – as merely outlier extremes instead of being representative of the majority – and then wanted to talk only of the extremely wealthy homeland resident minority hiding money in tax havens outside the US instead.

    Statistically speaking, how likely is it that the 7-9 (?) million born and living outside the US are actually wealthy and have ‘hidden’ accounts? They pretend that if we’re not paying US taxes that we’re not paying taxes at all to any tax agency – which of course is absurd – yet no-one calls them on it. They pretend that millions of us are ‘fleeing’ or have ‘fled’ the US for nefarious reasons and that we all have Cayman accounts.

    That is patently impossible, yet that is no barrier to their delusional worldview. So Bean and her cronies may say good riddance to us and our forced surrender of US citizenship, but she still chooses to pretend that we’re not paying any taxes anywhere and that we’re all a bunch of criminals – despite that making no logical or factual sense. And without us to whip, and to hold up as object lessons, the FATCAnatics lose a great deal of the position they’ve become famous for. Without us, where would careers based on scapegoating us go? We fulfill a n invaluable ideological function that defies any reason, logic, facts or concern with justice or ethics.

    Some efforts have touched on that from different angles. For instance the standing complaint from those here at IBS and other signatories ( http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2014/07/28/human-rights-complaint-on-behalf-of-all-u-s-persons-abroad-has-now-been-submitted/ ) to the UN that includes reference to the human rights issue that US citizenship twinned with extraterritorial CBT presents to those who are kept in thrall against their will – plus how the confiscatory renunciation (and now also relinquishment) fee plus the labyrinthine and over complex process – plus the exit tax regime are effectively a denial of the internationally recognized right to choose one’s citizenship/nationality, AND contains reference to the denial of that right to minors and the lifelong utter denial of expatriation for those deemed legally incompetent.

    Complaints to the Canadian government by individuals included that Canadians were being effectively deemed and kept as US citizens against their will, having been awarded it at birth via US parentage or via US birthplace despite living in Canada and considering themselves only Canadians. We had the party in power laughing and shouting without any shame – behaving like common bullies in our Parliament during an honourable NDP MP telling the story of on such Canadian kept involuntarily in thrall by the US https://openparliament.ca/debates/2014/6/11/mike-sullivan-1/ .

    It was pointed out to Canadian officials and politicians that the US was trying to at once effectively keep people from renouncing, while asserting the right to extraterritorially tax them based solely on their clinging and unwanted citizenship regardless of the lack of any economic connection and only a tenuous familial or birth relationship – which is not an internationally accepted, or just grounds for taxation. They just kept saying ‘just renounce’, and defending the ‘right’ of the US government to whatsoever tax system it chooses to devise and enforce, with snide referrals to US tax professionals as our remedy.

    I believe that others have been involved in trying to persuade the US to make the renunciation process less cumbersome. Attempts to even get the US consulates/embassy in Canada to offer more expatriation appointments and decrease wait times have not been successful. One of the ADCS members was told flat out that renunciation services are of low priority for the State Dept. in consulates in Canada, and that that would not change http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2014/11/04/my-november-4-2014-conversation-with-toronto-consul-general-of-us-new-renunciation-appointments-extended-to-september-2015/comment-page-1/ .

20. @Paul – I don’t know about other countries but I’m sure the UK government couldn’t legally subsidise renunciation of another country’s citizenship.

21. Just wanted to put the thought out there that it might be helpful to focus more on helping people renounce, rather than focusing so much effort on fighting FATCA and CBT, but apparently there is little motivation or interest or others have tried already but given up. Good luck to everyone putting their efforts into fighting FATCA and CBT.

22. As a Canadian taxpayer, I will use not approve of using my taxes to subsidize US renunciations, as I would not support making US tax preparation fees tax deductible in Canada, as I believe our friends at Moody’s at one point suggested the Canadian government do.

    This would amount to subsidizing the US’s stupidity and greed.

23. Bubblebustin, Canadians are already “subsidizing US’s stupidity and greed” by abiding by FATCA in the first place. As a Canadian taxpayer, who understands they may likely be forced to deal with FATCA for a very long time, wouldn’t you want to minimize the annual flow to the USA of money earned in Canada by Canadians who are deemed US taxpayers by the USA? This is what helping to finance renunciation of US citizenship would do. It would in effect help to eliminate those trojan horses the US has planted in Canada.

24. @bubblebustin, thanks for that reminder from the UStax-industrial complex exported to Canada, to lobby the Canadian government to effectively subsidize the US IRS and US tax compliancers. I’d forgotten. Though, it made a kind of twisted and offensive sense if Canada was going to embrace as effectively a branch plant of the IRS/US Treasury – AND, the IGA signatories and those who pushed the enabling legislation through effectively chose to subsidize the US government forever and ever by paying to implement FATCA on Canadian soil with Canadian accountholder and Canadian taxpayer revenues. So, cynically, why not go whole hog and drop the pretense of being at all sovereign and autonomous? And recognize those costs as deductible via the Canada US tax treaty if the Canadian federal government of both the CONS and now the Glibs are so dedicated to assisting a foreign government towards collection on Canadian soil that they’re willing to abuse our domestic revenues to defend the US foreign FATCA via the IGA, going to all lengths and expense in our own courts against local ordinary citizens and residents like ourselves that they were sworn to serve and protect.

    @Paul, re;
    “…focus more on helping people renounce, rather than focusing so much effort on fighting FATCA and CBT, but apparently there is little motivation or interest or others have tried already but given up. …”

    I don’t think people have given up. It is a question of where and how to focus scarce resources. And minors and those deemed legally incompetent are blocked by the US from renouncing, so making the process easier wouldn’t free them. Our local governments appear to be unmoved by the plight of their own citizens and residents in terms of the US extraterritorial claims on us, our data, our persons, and our assets – even for those born dual on non-US soil (so US via parentage only).

    It may make no practical sense for those born outside the US to ever come forward and identify themselves voluntarily in any kind of process even if an ‘easier’ method of renouncing were to become available, and it is probably in the short run better for them to just lie low since they have no US indicia.

25. Maybe the Canadian government could agree pay for the 5 years of tax compliance and exit taxes associated with making a clean break – that is unless they have the renunciant agree to never step got in the US again. Of course the renunciant would have to also have been a Canadian citizen at the time the tax liability was incurred so that they don’t have to collect on behalf of the IRS as per the tax treaty.

    Pipe dreams, I’m afraid.