Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Participants will need to provide their e-mail address (real or fake) and an alias. The only written rule is that participants must use a same alias each time they post (and not “anonymous” or derivatives thereof).
Bear in mind that any responses that you get from participants is peer-to-peer help, and it is not intended as a replacement for professional advice. Also, the Isaac Brock Society provides this disclaimer: neither the Society nor any of its members are professionals. We offer our advice here only in friendship and we recommend that our readers seek professional advice if they need it.
If you wish to receive an e-mail notification of comments, check the box to that effect when making your first comment.
NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@Pacifica777
I spent a lot of time researching this, including on this forum before posting. The reason why they want a CRBA is that a U.S. passport is no longer unchallengeable proof of citizenship against any USG agency and hasn’t been at least since 2014. It is, against private parties.
https://www.state.gov/documents/organization/244504.pdf (see page 19)
@ Gone Soon,
Thanks for explaining that and pointing me to that report. Looks like there may be some other interesting/useful information in it too.
@Gone Soon, well we’ve been advocating it for some years. When this mess first started a lot of people found their local embassies/consulates swamped with people renouncing/relinquishing and didn’t want to wait months or years to get the job done. So they looked elsewhere. There’s nothing in US law that says it has to be done at the embassy/consulate in the country you live in so people hopped all over the place. In fact, in some countries it went the other way. Germany had so many people coming in from elsewhere that they restricted appointments to only those US citizens living in Germany. Even in Canada it was (and maybe still is?) sometimes better to go to a consulate further away from you because their turnaround time was shorter.
Yes, in Canada they use a central booking system and you can pick which of the six locations you want to use, or you can pick “first available appointment” which may turn out to be any one of them. When you e-mail the central booking system for renunciation instructions, they list the current wait times for each location.
Re:
Yep, one of the Brockers got a letter, which I’ve seen, from the Legal Affairs Director of DoS/AmericanCitizensServices (the office that issues CLNs), who confirmed in writing that you can renounce at any consulate in the world regardless of where you live. I suspect with a situation like Germany restricting appointments to locals, the embassy would probably capitulate if someone pressed the issue, but that might take longer to straighten that out than just booking somewhere else. Dunno. Fortunately it seems most places, that are reported on this site anyway, do conform to the policy of processing people regardless of where they live.
My Dad, quoting my granddad, used to say “Never volunteer any information.”
True enough if you saw the film “Let Him Have It”
And even truer with respect to the IRS. But who knew they kept such bad faith with the citizenry? I have been devastated. My child knows nothing about my U.S, connection. He knows he’s British and Swiss and others in his class in the French elementary school are, well, French or Québecois, etc. But how will I explain to him some day his loathsome background of a generation Amerikanified? (He knows he has cousins in California, But not where that is, under the sovereignty of despots that don’t involve him unless they can steal his inheritance from me, Which, as you can surmise if you followed this thread means more to “geriatric single mums” than it might to others.
Those of us who kept up to date with our tax filings and FBARs for decades feel violated, And we are.
“Those of us who kept up to date with our tax filings and FBARs for decades feel violated, And we are.”
All too true. Those of us who never heard of CBT until FATCA descended, seem mostly to have escaped more easily than those who knew of the obligation and tried to comply.
The IRS seems to take the submission of a 1040 as a challenge.
@Pacifica77, it was early on in the renuncation fiasco when most embassies/consulates weren’t really geared up for it. I think a lot of people living in Switzerland hopped over the border to Germany to have it done there. At least most embassies/consulates are more clued up and have better appointment systems (and more appointments available) nowadays. I don’t know if Germany still applies that rule or not.
@Gone Soon, why even bother to tell him? So he has cousins in the States, so what? Plenty of people have relatives living in other countries. It’s becoming pretty much the norm these days.
“@Pacifica777
I spent a lot of time researching this, including on this forum before posting. The reason why they want a CRBA is that a U.S. passport is no longer unchallengeable proof of citizenship against any USG agency and hasn’t been at least since 2014. It is, against private parties.
https://www.state.gov/documents/organization/244504.pdf (see page 19)”
Oh, great. More commonly passed around info that is four years out of date. What else are we basing decisions upon today that is years out of date?
@ JapanT,
Re: “Oh, great. More commonly passed around info that is four years out of date.”
No one was passing around info that is four years out of date, as I don’t recall anyone writing that they don’t require a consular report of birth abroad in addition to a passport in order to establish one’s US citizenship, but rather that people were discussing the possibility.
As for me, I gave my opinion (which is not info), “Seems dumb to require a Consular Report of Birth Abroad (isn’t it their department (DoS) that issues these things, so why don’t they just check their database; and the US isn’t exactly noted for issuing passports to non-citizens). And I stand by my opinion, I think it’s dumb they don’t just check their own database for a consular report of birth abroad. But then I think a lot of the US policies regarding expatriation are dumb.
@ MedeaFleecestealer,
Re: “On a side note, did any of you see this from the London embassy website?
https://uk.usembassy.gov/wpcontent/uploads/sites/16/2015/12/informal_loss_acknowledgement.pdf
Yet another form to fill in.”
Yeah, I remember that questionnaire when it came out a few years ago. One of the London Brockers sent it to me. London had been requiring an “informal telephone interview” before the in-person renunciation meeting (instead of 2 in-person meetings as some locations were doing) and this quesionnaire came out about the same time they discontinued the required telephone interview.
It doesn’t particularly bother me because it’s basically a rehash of the DS-4081 and it won’t take long to circle yes in a bunch of boxes, but I don’t really see the point either, just another piece of redundant paper.
‘At least if I keep writing to them they can’t accuse me of willfulness and not let me leave the USA if I ever gather up the courage to visit again, by a writ “ne exeat regno”’
Actually they can. They destroy letters all the time. Sometimes they destroy tax returns. Sometimes they destroy records that showed that they had filed and later unfiled tax returns. They destroy records of payments. Whatever they have to do to make an unjust accusation against you, they will do it.
If you fight them in court, courts will do whatever the government says. When the government makes declarations that contradict each other, the court will obey both, making a ruling that contradicts itself, whatever they need to do to make sure you get screwed.
…
‘But, trying to be strategically insulting, I wrote that once it gets to Tax Court you get a better calibre of IRS lawyer. Who will settle rather than risk a bad judgement,’
You were wrong. Once it gets to Tax Court you still get an ignorant and dishonest IRS lawyer. Lawyers in both the IRS and DOJ were unaware that IRS instructions say (in at least 4 places) to exclude from Form 1116 line 1 the amount of earned income that was excluded by Form 2555. When an IRS lawyer settles it’s because they only have to wait more than 90 days, when Tax Court loses jurisdiction over anything that happens after that, and the IRS can renege on its settlement with impunity.
“Seems dumb to require a Consular Report of Birth Abroad (isn’t it their department (DoS) that issues these things, so why don’t they just check their database; and the US isn’t exactly noted for issuing passports to non-citizens).”
Actually the US is known for issuing passports to non-citizens, usually legally to US non-citizen nationals, and occasionally illegally to ineligible people.
But if a CRBA was used in obtaining a passport for a US citizen, I agree that DOS’s database should be able to provide the CRBA. Maybe DOS destroys their database as much as the IRS does?
@Pacifica777
My comment was not directed at any one person. Many are giving advice that a passport is all the is required. While that may have been true in the past, it has not in the past four years. Not the first bit of info that has been found to be years out of date by the time we learn that fact.
As far as your opinion on it being stupid, that is how it appears to us. But to the public servent, these “stupid” requirements equal job security to them.
Now that the Republicans have clearly done nothing about CBT and FATCA, the renunciations will start tumbling in.
So many people I know have been sitting on the fence with hope that the situation will change. But that hope is pretty much gone now.
@Gone Soon
Why actually are you doing any of this? You don’t have a US birthplace, so won’t need to renounce or deal with FATCA restrictions on banking if you keep US citizenship a secret. Otherwise just pull any assets you have out of the US and then cease filing and corresponding with the IRS. If you can afford to walk away from the social security that was so weirdly set up for you then there’s really no reason for any further dealings with the US government.
“Now that the Republicans have clearly done nothing about CBT and FATCA, the renunciations will start tumbling in.
So many people I know have been sitting on the fence with hope that the situation will change. But that hope is pretty much gone now.”
Yep, and for those o us who can not renounce, pretty much all hope is gone.
@Norman Diamond wrote:
“‘But, trying to be strategically insulting, I wrote that once it gets to Tax Court you get a better calibre of IRS lawyer. Who will settle rather than risk a bad judgement,’
“You were wrong. Once it gets to Tax Court you still get an ignorant and dishonest IRS lawyer. Lawyers in both the IRS and DOJ were unaware that IRS instructions say (in at least 4 places) to exclude from Form 1116 line 1 the amount of earned income that was excluded by Form 2555. When an IRS lawyer settles it’s because they only have to wait more than 90 days, when Tax Court loses jurisdiction over anything that happens after that, and the IRS can renege on its settlement with impunity.”
I would never go to Tax Court unless my case were certain on the papers, and I would only settle after the case is docketed. The difference between Tax Court and Appeals is that in the Court they have to address the issues. A case that won’t get them any money anyway isn’t worth their pursuing unless somehow they want “vengeance”. The impossibility of giving them what they demand re the 3520 & 3520-A — their simply ignoring the fact that my son is a NRA — could lead them to impose ridiculous penalties that could never be paid.
That said, I am convinced that only a CLN will get me out of this mess. I will email for an appointment in London today. I don’t have the CRBA but I do have my parents’ birth and marriage certificate and my British birth certificate. If they refuse an appointment for want of CRBA I will try other embassies. Expatriation is a right. I’ve filled the 4079 with “decline to answer” (except where a yes-no reply is obvious and harmless) because I’m not seeking recognition of prior relinquishment: that wouldn’t save me any money.
@GoneSoon
You wouldn’t qualify for a relinquishment (from your Naturallisation as Swiss) anyway if you continued to file US taxes after becoming Swiss. This would mean that you still considered yourself an American.
I don’t know why you worry about the IRS opinion, as British citizens they cant touch you or your son.
@GoneSoon
https://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2016/11/01/dual-citizens-of-sweden-france-netherlands-denmark-canada-take-note-your-country-will-not-collect-for-the-u-s/
Tax collection is not the only concern. Sharing any info with anyone that has demonstrated such a disdain as the IRS has for its duty to keep said info private is more than enough to be concerned.
Goon Soon seems to have little concern about the IRS collecting as she says she has nothing for them to collect, much like myself. Thus, I suspect that her concerns lie elsewhere, as mine do.
Gone Soon –
“A case that won’t get them any money anyway isn’t worth their pursuing unless somehow they want “vengeance” ”
Has the provider been treating the JISA as FATCA-reportable?
@Heidi,
The anxiety is caused by their aggressiveness and lack of specificity (I don’t think they know how to do anything but threaten with fines) over the trust fund issues. There is also the issue that our Swiss bank is trying to get rid of us (no more e-Banking). My Dad is moving to PostFinance with me as a signatory. They don’t know I have been a US citizen and I want to be able to submit a W8-BEN.
I have to put a stop to them and a CLN should, although the IRS reserves the right to pursue pre-CLN issues. At least I can answer them each time with a photocopy of the CLN.
Surely you must know how the USG is ruining expats’ lives. It doesn’t have to be by seizing foreign assets (which they could do if we had anything in France, Denmark, etc — we do have a few thousand in Canada), It’s constant harassment without any way to comply, Until now my tax affairs have been perfect. 3520 is impossible: they insist there is an “owner” without saying who that might be, and ignoring that my son is a NRA.
London embassy will be closed today but I’ll send in my paperwork and see what kind of appointment I can get.
I want finality.
“It doesn’t have to be by seizing foreign assets (which they could do if we had anything in France, Denmark, etc — we do have a few thousand in Canada), ”
The IRS can’t seize “foreign” assets. They would have to ask the local tax agency for assistance in collection. Which the CRA might indeed agree to do.
@GoneSoon
Yes, I do know all about the treatment of US expats.
I was one until I renounced back in 2012. As a Swiss/British/US citizen my Swiss accounts were closed and I had to have my sister pay all my Bills for me until I had my magic cln.
I was always irs compliant, I knew the ropes as I had worked in the US for many years before retiring back home in Switzerland. I had issues with my final 1040NR in which they said they hadn’t received a payment, they had. I wrote constantly over a period of a year and had no resolution, just more demands. I eventually cleared up the problem with one phone call early in the morning to the IRS in philadelphia. Have you tried calling them?
Can you get a ruling from the London Embassy State dept that your son is a NRA. The Embassy staff are often very helpful.
Just a note re Swiss banks, they are now very anti non resident accounts of any Nationality. I have a British friend who owns a ski apartment here and she has to prove she declares the account to HMRC. She also has to pay much larger bank charges.
@gone soon
just renounce and don’t file anything .
you can renounce in Florence,i never showed any birth certificate.
they asked me to fill these
A questionnaire
the form DS-4079
the form DS-4081
SS-5
A scanned copy of your Social Security card
i told them i had no SS card but i found the number so i gave them that and it was ok,
then the meeting(you just verify the docs and sign the oath with the consul,3 min) 3 weeks later ,then another 3 weeks and you have your CLN.