Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@Plaxy wrote:
“GoneSoon – you can get a replacement CRBA from UCSIS:
https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/international-travel/while-abroad/birth-abroad/replace-amend-CRBA.html ”
Thanks for that but State wants “1. A notarized request that includes all of the following information:”
I don’t think they can refuse my renunciation over that. Actually my CRBA might be in a suitcase in the cave of our Swiss flat. A notarisation costs £50, once half-term holiday ends a return flight to Geneva isn’t much more. I make £25k a year; the $2,350 is a month’s pay.
Meanwhile IRS in Ogden sent me letters demanding trust tax returns over my nonresident alien son’s Junior ISA “as owner”. I’m not the “owner” or “grantor” anymore than I would be for a UGMA account and I can’t afford professional help: I need to save up £2,350. Yet, who knows, they could say I wasn’t 5-years compliant as required for my Form 8854.
At least if I keep writing to them they can’t accuse me of willfulness and not let me leave the USA if I ever gather up the courage to visit again, by a writ “ne exeat regno” (Yes, I know the USA isn’t supposed to be a kingdom, but its present President doesn’t know that).
The American tax system targets the poor and innocent abroad. But you knew that already.
“To an earlier point, how did an Italian bank “do something it said it wouldn’t” if we are only talking about FATCA reporting?”
That’s exactly what it felt like, when I first learned about FATCA. I went back to the T&C on my existing accounts, thinking surely the bank couldn’t give out my personal financial information without being in breach of contract.
But I was mistaken.
“we know very little about this case and should probably stop speculating.”
Yep, I agree. In fact I think we already did. The discussion has drifted into general points about FATCA/IGA, without reference to any individual’s specific situation.
Gone Soon – sorry about the replacement CRBA. I should have known it wouldn’t be so simple as giving one’s name and SSN and asking for a copy. I’ll bet they don’t even have a record but just generate a facsimile from the information supplied by the requester.
Since you can’t prove citizenship, and weren’t born in the US, I wonder if you actually are a US citizen? Maybe Phil Hodgen would be able to comment on this? (google Phil Hodgen blog)
If you’re not a USC, the IRS can’t play games with your son’s trust. Just a thought.
Gone Soon – also be aware that while the IRS can write you letters, it can’t do much more. The UK won’t assist in collection of US tax from a UK citizen. (I should coco!)
You might want to consider just not filing anymore.
Correction – I forgot, you mentioned you have some US-source assets/income. And hope to be able to visit the US post-renunciation. Not filing would not be a good solution in those circumstances.
I answered Ogden and added gratuitously that I am awaiting an appointment to renounce and need to certify on 8854 that I’m 5 years compliant and answer its questions on foreign trusts as assets. Since there appears to be no official definition of “owner” of a trust I pointed out my child is a NRA and that I shall be ASAP, making the issue moot. The donor of the ISA money (my dual national Mom) has died. She has $15 or so in a US credit union account that we abandoned because we didn’t file probate. Let them have that (we used her debit card to help pay for her funeral and that’s what was left; when SSA told the CU of her death (who else would have?) they blocked the account anyway. With $15. My parents were students when I was born, and they just never went back, except for those 2 years to wind up affairs. Only the IRS had a motive to try to prove I never left the USA during those 2 years; State’s policy is the opposite. And since my child was born pre-2014 I can whisper the magic word “IVF”. It was (and maybe still is) State policy to be nasty and unbelieving to geriatric moms. (If it weren’t for this forum, and for my son, I would probably suicide myself over the nastiness I read into boilerplate IRS letters. In my last (of 3) to them I pointed out there is no apparent definition of “owner” in these contexts and that I await one now, And of course “willfulness” (see above) is relevant to penalties. (BTW, the “trust” earned $8 in interest in 2017, A $10,000 penalty for that? I filled out a 1040NR as instructed by the 1041 regs, and then forgot to sign. My bad.)
lots of off topic posts here. I thought it was Gone Soon’s son’s certificate that is missing,
So what- it is irrelevant. Stick to your original plan.
Gone Soon – the IRS are indeed bastards, and amazingly ignorant bastards as well. All the more reason not to let them upset you. They don’t have any power over you, if you have no US assets that you care about.
You can renounce as soon as you get an appointment. Once you receive your CLN, you are NRA and the only reason you might want to pretend you sold your worldly goods the day before you renounced (in order to file the 8854), is if it’s important to you to be able to visit the US post-renunciation.
It doesn’t matter that they know about the Junior ISA. It’s so none of their business. Get yourself renounced a.s.a.p. and once you’ve got the CLN, file whatever you want, but if you choose to file 8854, do not list any assets/income except US assets/income.
Link to docs required at Amsterdam:
https://nl.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/citizenship-services/renunciation-u-s-citizenship/
No need for CRBA.
By the way, as you were born dual and are still UK-resident you probably do qualify for the exit tax exemption, at least the IRS probably can’t prove you don’t, and is extremely unlikely to try.
@Portland
My son has only his British birth certificate. He visited the USA twice on his British passport. He is not American because I was not present in the USA for 365 consecutive days, ever.
What is missing is my CRBA. The question was whether I need to go to our holiday flat in Switzerland and look for it. I don’t want to pay notary and other fees for a duplicate: can they refuse my renunciation without it? I don’t plan to show my Swiss passport (my Swiss familienschein and my naturalisation paper would show my son’s existence, and I don’t want to tell them about him either. I just want to avoid arguments with officialdom and figure that this forum is the place to learn of others’ experience. True there is lots of expertise available on tax and nationality but it starts at $500 and ends above $10,000 even for those who tried to file every tax form the law demanded, and has done for 20 years. The outrage is that an honest mistake is treated like tax fraud. ($10,000 for $8 in interest: could that be true what Ogden wrote in their letter? Well I suppose so: $10,000 for a missing FBAR?: hey, I never had $10,000 in my account and only had to file an FBAR recently because of signature authority.)
Gone Soon. Sorry I was confused. It’s truly unfortunate you started filing in the first place. Having been born in Britain, there was nothing the IRS could have done. Do you have a US passport? if not, you have the Kafkaesque situation of proving you are a US citizen in order to rid yourself of that same citizenship. Only in America.
Gone Soon You have another option. Say enough! Just stop filing. Do nothing. Save yourself $2350.
“Do you have a US passport? if not, you have the Kafkaesque situation of proving you are a US citizen in order to rid yourself of that same citizenship. ”
Or the opportunity to apply for a US passport and get refused for absence of proof of US citizenship. In which case renunciation should be unnecessary.
@Plaxy wrote
“By the way, as you were born dual and are still UK-resident you probably do qualify for the exit tax exemption, at least the IRS probably can’t prove you don’t, and is extremely unlikely to try.”
I fall under the 877A exemption (not the 877 one but I don’t think that matters, I have little income but inherited a flat with mortgage which, if the GBP exchange rate rose and property prices soared could take be above $2 mn some day, (I can’t afford to live in my own flat, hence the whole trust business to pass assets from my parents to my son’s UK disability trust. Enough said.)
The Congress has engendered so much hatred for the country among people like me who may have relatives there but no history, no affection, no equity in its sovereignty, I have my small Roth IRA. If they take that, if I feel endangered by visiting (hey: they are separating asylum seekers from their babies and children) I won’t go back, however many air miles I have (those inherited too). What a tragedy. Land of the free?
The point is that IRS Ogden refuses to support their claim that *some U.S. Person” (my son? He’s not) is “owner”. A concept nowhere defined and we (moi & a volunteer US tax lawyer) spent over 100 hours reading all the law, all the regs, all the treatises. It’s tax collection by fear and fraud. If they assess, I’ll file a Tax Court petition, knowing that even if they win I can’t pay for want of funds, But, trying to be strategically insulting, I wrote that once it gets to Tax Court you get a better calibre of IRS lawyer. Who will settle rather than risk a bad judgement,
@Plaxy
My parents registered my birth in the 1970s and brought me “home” to the USA only to prepare to leave, Who knew, who could predict what is happening today? They also filed 1040s for me, even when I was a baby: they had me work as a model for a friend to get SS Quarters of Coverage. They knew some of the tricks of the trade, just as they arranged for me to contrive minimal self-employment (“researcher”) during our holidays to get more credits and Roth IRA eligibility, And look what it’s come to. But of course we can’t predict the future. I have a bright bilingual son, but he is legally disabled under UK (probably not US) law.
Gone Soon:
“The point is that IRS Ogden refuses to support their claim that *some U.S. Person” (my son? He’s not) is “owner”
Isn’t it likely that they can’t substantiate it? If you just ignore them there’s nothing they can do. If you were to try to challenge in a US tax court you would lose. Don’t let them needle you. They positively can’t do anything to you beyond confiscating your US assets. You might want to considering moving that money to Britain, despite the UK tax cost.
Do you have a US passport?
“My parents registered my birth in the 1970s ”
Yes but without the CRBA that’s not proof of citizenship. Do you have a US passport? It would be good if the answer is no.
@Plaxy
“Do you have a US passport?”
Yes, because I obey the law (I actually read law in N.I. long ago). I wonder if the IRS would risk a bad definition of “owner” where under English law (which I would argue) my son has sole ownership. The IRS, like most prosecutors, avoids cases they aren’t confident of winning, Never mind they can’t collect: I don’t have to visit the USA to file a case: all the papers and arguments are mailed in. The IRS rules by doubt and fear: I am not afraid, except to the extent that (as I wrote) they could seize my child. He has issues including a very limited diet: the airlines give me an extra suitcase allowance to bring what he will eat. Some children die for are put on feeding tubes in cases like his,) I can always mail my “other” passport(s) to a friend and leave via Tijuana, (Hey, wasn’t that Vice Consul Amelia Shaw’s last posting? Yes it was.)
OK, bad luck. Never mind.
“Never mind they can’t collect: I don’t have to visit the USA to file a case: all the papers and arguments are mailed in. ”
Don’t file a case, whatever you do. The IRS won’t take action against you, but if you take action against them you’ll lose.
I would suggest you try to stop worrying about the IRS and just concentrate on renouncing. Once you’ve sworn that oath, and got that renunciation receipt as proof, you’ll feel a lot better. 🙂
Then you can consider your options regarding the IRS.
@Plaxy wrote:
“Link to docs required at Amsterdam:
https://nl.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/citizenship-services/renunciation-u-s-citizenship/ ”
Still 4079. I don’t care anymore. I want to do it on the cheap, not to travel anywhere. May make a stab at looking for my CRBA in Switzerland because it doesn’t relate to my son: will mention only what suits me to say, Mostly irrelevant since I will claim renunciation. I wonder what the wait is here in London.
I just don’t want to pay £2,350 and then get rejected for want of a piece of paper, At that point I would throw the US passport at them and tell them what I think, which would not be nice. And wouldn’t solve my problem.
Plus: you never know what they will demand despite a list that omits what you don’t have.
@Plaxy wrote:
“Don’t file a case, whatever you do. The IRS won’t take action against you, but if you take action against them you’ll lose.”
My Dad filed a Tax Court case in late 1990s in preparation for a strategic Ch 11 case on another matter. (He wouldn’t waive the SoL and the IRS were being stupid; when he rang SC and they guy told him that the auditor was the best they had, he knew what to do. The IRS consented to summary judgment in his favour and he actually made $600 on the deal because they changed lawyers and the new one didn’t notice he wasn’t seeking summary judgment for the last $600. Or didn’t care.)
It’s true: the quality of lawyering is better at that level: the IRS will have to define “owner” in relation to a NRA bene and they don’t want to.
“Still 4079”
No, look again. The 4079 is not required at Amsterdam. Neither is the CRBA.
“you never know what they will demand despite a list that omits what you don’t have.”
If you supply what they ask for they won’t ask for anything else in the way of documentation, but they may ask why you’re renouncing. Innocuous reple recommended: “I want to simplify my life” is favourite.
“My Dad filed a Tax Court case in late 1990s…The IRS consented to summary judgment in his favour and he actually made $600 on the deal.”
If you think that’s your best course of action, then I wish you luck. 🙂
@Gone Soon, that isn’t the case. If they do need any other documentation, they’ll ask you for that long before you reach the payment stage. You won’t lose any money if you can’t provide the paperwork they want. All that would happen is that you probably couldn’t do the renunciation – which might be a good thing. If they don’t accept you’re a citizen, then no one else should either.
If you go to Amsterdam they only require you to provide info on how you became a US citizen, you don’t need to provide copies of birth certificates or passports, just the last passport number if you know it and your SSN if you have one.
On a side note, did any of you see this from the London embassy website?
https://uk.usembassy.gov/wp-content/uploads/sites/16/2015/12/informal_loss_acknowledgement.pdf
Yet another form to fill in.
@ Gone Soon,
The seem to require a US birth certificate, consular report of birth abroad, or naturalisation certificate, even if one has a passport, to the passport in order to establish citizenship. Some weird logic a non-citizen would want to pay $2350 and go through the hassle to get rid of something they don’t have, I guess.
Seems dumb to require a Consular Report of Birth Abroad (isn’t it their department (DoS) that issues these things, so why don’t they just check their database; and the US isn’t exactly noted for issuing passports to non-citizens). The whole thing is over-convoluted..
Anyway, here’s a couple of examples. I’m really inclined to think that all locations require one of these documents, but it might be worth checking the requirements at a few locations reasonably close to where you live.
Canada:
– Your most recent U.S. passport and, if you have ever been issued one, your Consular Report of Birth Abroad, Certificate of U.S. Citizenship, or Certificate of U.S. Naturalization.”
(not on-line, they send the list upon e-mail request) but they seem to have cut-and-pasted from the Foreign Affairs Manual, 7FAM 1260 Renunciation.)
London:
• Evidence of U.S. citizenship; (such as your most recent U.S. passport or U.S. birth certificate, if you are not in possession of your U.S. passport;
• U.S. Consular Report of Birth Abroad, if applicable;
• Bio-pages of all current foreign passports;
Bern:
“U.S. Birth Certificate (copy sufficient) or U.S. Consular Report of Birth Abroad (original required) and “bio-page of most recent passport.”https://ch.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/citizenship-
Update, 12:47: Didn’t see MedeaFleecestealer’s comment, posting at the same time — good to hear about Amsterdam.
@Medea Fleecestealer
Looks good, thanks. Will have to work on this. Yes, I saw my error on the 4079 at Amsterdam after posting. Who’d a thunk it that one could game the system: one consular section against another?