Just Saying No: Not Renouncing/Relinquishing Nor Complying
Some people cannot afford to renounce (or relinquish and get a CLN) and some people will not renounce or relinquish because they do not consider themselves to be US citizens.
This thread is a place for people in this situation to share information and experiences. Thanks for sharing — your stories will be very helpful to others!
The IRS really doesn’t care about this stuff, we’ve learned. I renounced two years ago without filing a thing before or after; I haven’t heard a peep and expect I never will. Our adult child is in your son’s situation; they likely won’t renounce because why bother, they can keep it a secret forever.
Just Saying No: Not Renouncing/Relinquishing Nor Complying. Any issues with the estate upon death for people in this group? No US tax number, but US place of birth is on the Canadian passport.
@Dorian
Nobody has reported anything here, to my knowledge. I’ve not heard of this happening but I’m not an estate lawyer or otherwise involved in that business so what do I know?
Place of birth will be on the death certificate.
This was a factor in my decision to renounce. The concern is that an overzealous executor might panic due to their own potential US tax liability and attempt to bring the estate into US tax compliance. This would be expensive and time-consuming.
It would be difficult to set up a trust without the lawyer, accountant or money manager discovering US citizenship and potentially insisting on proper reporting.
Dorian. Depends. 1. Any heirs living in the US? 2. Any US situated property? If no ongoing connection to the US and assuming the estate isn’t ginormous, there is no problem.
In our case, we have children and grandchildren living in the US. We hope to leave them something significant although a better estate plan is to give most of it before we die. Problem is we don’t know how much we will need until then.
So, my spouse, the US citizen renounced a number of years ago. It took us 5 years of planning to avoid the exit tax.
Hello, I have some questions about this topic. For the most part, it looks like the “do nothing” approach should work for people like me, who have no financial connection to the US and are not millionaires, just ordinary middle-class/lower-middle-class income people who earn enough to pay bills and maybe own an old fixerupper home, but not a new car. Don’t volunteer your status needlessly to your bank, financial planner or anyone else.
But….if, like me, you get within throwing distance to your expiry date it gets more complicated. If i kick the bucket today, my wife will have to take my death certificate to the bank to transfer what i have in there over to herself and close the account. the bank may notice the birth place on the certificate but they won’t have that in their records. What kind of nightmare scenario could this create for her? Same thing when she goes to transfer my LIF and also when she gets some tax professional to help do my final taxes.
It seems like a big risk for the surviving spouse to deal with at such a difficult time. Especially a for a senior. Now that the cost has dropped to $450US, i’m reconsidering things.
Question is; Am i being paranoid about all this?
thanks for any thoughts you’re willing to share about it.
HD
Good question, Henry. One I have asked. I naturalized as Canadian in 2000 with intent to relinquish US and ceased doing all US citizen things thereafter. However, I did not obtain CLN because it was not required then. I was also rebellious about seeking permission from a bunch of officials for something that I believed was my human right.
But my wife and family are doing our estate planning and will not accept that I am just a Canadian unless I can produce a CLN. As a result, I am considering applying for a CLN based on the 2000 naturalization. It might work but it might open a can of worms too. I dread the process and the stress it will cause me. Renouncing now if the pre-dated CLN is denied would undo all the distance I have put with the US and subject me and the estate to taxes, I expect. So I am undecided and any advice would be welcome.
It’s getting much more difficult to get CLNs based on non-renunciatory relinquishments in the past.
See here:
https://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2025/01/29/john-richardsons-observations-on-current-processing-of-relinquishment-based-cln-applications/
For me, it’s a difficult decision emotionally. But intellectually giving up my US citizenship is the logical thing to to and now that the fee has been significantly reduced, the administration fee no longer outweighs the perceived risks. At least in my case.
For me, it’s hard emotionally because I’m a former Marine and those roots run deep. But I’m thinking of my wife and all she would have to deal with if I go before her and I have to think of her first.
Thanks for your thoughts on this topic. This site is full of helpful information and supportive people.
One more question though; When someone renounces, do they automatically send you a CLN or some other document that indicates you’re no longer a US citizen? Something my wife could present to anyone who may ask, or is that yet another procedure we have to do, (and the US gov’t can charge us all yet another fee).
Thanks, John. If I could just allay the fear of some of my family members and convince them that they need to do nothing with the US when I die, that should solve the problem. But they apparently have listened to the fear mongers and they will not even look at the facts like the US law at the time I relinquished, the large estate tax exemption and the lack of evidence that the IRS has pursued middle-type people like me.
If the only downside of applying for the pre-dated CLN is a long wait, doing so may appease my family. Wait times for an appointment at the embassy would be long, too. So total time could be years. In the meantime, I’ve done something.
Henry, I hear you. One half of my family landed on the Massachusetts coast in the 1600s and the other came in the 1850s. Both were seeking a better life and freedom from authoritarianism. I experienced and appreciated that life and freedom as I grew up. But the US is quickly reverting to the situation that my ancestors fled from. This pursuit of people like you and me with the onerous reporting and taxation schemes is an attack on our freedom.
Canada preserves the ethos that the US once had, so I am more at home here now. I want to be free from the country that once had freedom. But I do grieve the former situation. I hope it reverts back. I also hope Canada does not follow the US path into more and more restrictions.
@Wasusnowcan
Responding particularly to:
“If the only downside of applying for the pre-dated CLN is a long wait, doing so may appease my family.”
What follows is the question they are now specifically asking. Given the burden of proof is on you, I am not sure that the only downside is a long wait. More than naturalizing as a CDN citizen is required.
_________________________________________
“4(e) Additional Information. Describe your decision to naturalize in a foreign state, including but
not limited to: (i) whether you knew you were a U.S. citizen at the time you naturalized in the
foreign state listed in 14(a); and (ii) when and how you became aware that naturalizing in a
foreign state could be a potentially expatriating act under U.S. law.”
@Henry
Yes, when you renounce they will send you a CLN. That is what the (now) $450 fee is actually for.
Fully understand the emotional issues. But, you need to deal with the world as it is and not as you once believed it was.
Yes, it’s hard and totally unfair.
I really appreciate your help in thinking this through, John, and providing the questions they will ask.
The questions. appear like an attempt at retroactivity, trying to make the present difficult procedure apply to the past in order to block relinquishment allowed at the time by their law.
The first question is silly for anyone born in the US. The time of realization for the second would require quite a memory for someone who expatiated many years ago like myself. How I found out?: “I studied the US law about how US citizenship could be lost and found the consequences of naturalization in another country to be well described”.
Basically, at this time of my life, I just want to be left alone by the US. That’s the way it is now and is likely to remain if I do not voluntarily alert them. I have enough money to do me out. My wife does for herself too. Neither she nor my children need mine. However, what they are afraid of is that the IRS will attack at my death and demand money from the estate for taxes and penalties. They are “looking a gift horse in the mouth” in my opinion. A legacy from me is not obligatory, it is a gift. They are ignoring the stress and difficulty I will face if I start interacting with the US.
Wasusnowcan. I’m not sure what you or your family are afraid of. The best course of action is to convince them that they have absolutely nothing to fear from the IRS. The IRS has no resources to go after middle class ex citizens residing outside the USA. 2nd best course would be to spend 450$ for a CLN. After that, don’t file a single thing with the IRS. Renouncing is not dependant on filing.