Can a foreigner not open a bank account in Japan without disclosing their parents’ nationality and place of birth?
Obviously, if status as a USC was known, FIs in *any* (FATCA-compliant) country would report accounts to the US. But the point is, how would a Dutch national carrying a Dutch passport and born in the Netherlands be identified as a US person?
Reporting the accounts currently has no negative consequences for a dual citizen not interested in moving to the US, but that’s another issue. Still worth avoiding, on principle.
“ Can a foreigner not open a bank account in Japan without disclosing their parents’ nationality and place of birth?”
In short, no. A few years ago I opened a new account to find out for myself and to report here what the current requirements were. First I had to present my “Gaijin” card. Long explanation on this cut short. The new “Gaijin” card is optional for Japanese nationals but required of resident aliens. Upon this card is listed one’s nationality and immigration status. Despite that fact that I am a legal, Permanent Resident, I could not open the account until I returned with my passport and U.S SSN card or other proof of my SSN. As a USC, no US SSN=no account. I was also given a FATCA letter and release form to sign stating that I gave the bank permission to report all account activity to the IRS. If any of these were missing, I would not have been able to open the account. (Beyond this, when I first came to Japan as a civilian, one had to allow any rental service to photo copy your passport or gaijin card before engaging the service. Illegal for them to require these but if you refused, they refused you service.)
Additionally, I had to provide my Japanese My Number card which all Japanese residence are to have. Think of it as a super duper SSN. Its stated purpose is to make life more convenient by having a single number for ALL purposes. Not there yet but well on the way and again, that is its stated purpose.
My children were born in Japan. Their mother is Japanese. They have Japanese passports but have not been registered at the US embassy and do not have US SSNs. Yet, due to the fact that their My Numbers are linked to the Family Registry, the fact that their father was a USC at the time of their births is forever linked to their MY Number.
For the Dutch national in question, it would depend upon to what degree the automatic sharing of immigration info has progressed and how Japanese Immigration treat dual nationalities. I know that Japan does not in general recognize dual nationality with their own citizens but I do not know how they treat duals without Japanese nationality.
However, whatever the current situation is, it is undoubtably moving in directions that are unfavorable for us, including this Dutch national.
Talk about “I wish I knew this before.”, if I knew about CBT, I would never have ventured abroad with out taking precautions to protect myself, business associates and most importantly, family.
If our Dutchman does not in someway take care of his problem, he will constantly need to research what the current climate towards USCs are in each and every country he may wish to work in and possibly travel to or through. He would also have to consider the implications for any children he may have.
This is a cancer, ignoring it doesn’t make it go away.
@JapanT
Assume for the purposes of argument that our hypothetical Dutchman-born-in-the-Netherlands is willing to lie, or more benignly, remains blissfully unaware of his possible US citizenship via parentage. (I say possible because of course US citizenship is not automatically transmitted to all children born abroad.)
It’s possible that the immigration paperwork he fills out when entering Japan could ask for information about parents, including birthplace and nationality. That is the case for Germany, though the form field for place of birth (I just checked) is very small and there are no details given for what information belongs there. Again, the fact that one parent was born in the US does not automatically mean that a person is a US citizen.
However, you are suggesting that one parent’s US birthplace would be taken as a determination of US citizenship, and this information would find its way from an immigration form to a Japanese bank, during or after the process of opening an account?
BREAKING: Accidental Americans reel after Dutch court says bank may close account of retired KLM pilot
December 24, 2020
Unfortunate but not surprising. While I am not a lawyer, let along a Dutch lawyer, I thought the odds were not good based on reading about the earlier tribunal (KIFID) decision. Apparently Dutch banks may close a customer’s account if they believe it to be used for purposes of fraud, tax evasion or other random criminality. When Mr. Ariës publicly declared that he didn’t want to acquire an SSN because it might cause him to owe US taxes, he essentially sealed his fate.
At some point I’ll plug the whole decision into Google Translate (which is surprisingly good now) but that short excerpt sums it up well, the judge essentially saying that the whole situation sucks but politicians are responsible and there’s only so much he can do within the limits of the law.
The frustrating aspect to this case is that Mr. Ariës got it fundamentally wrong – being forced to supply his bank with an SSN creates no US tax bills for him. But by going to the tribunal, and then to the press, and then to court, he started in motion a process that would never end well for him. If he sacrificed himself for the sake of some publicity and general outrage, we can thank him if it helps solve the bigger problem. It may or may not.
At this point it’s probably going to be cheaper for Mr. Ariës to shut up and renounce – once that becomes possible – rather than continue paying lawyers to fight this. In the meantime he might need to live without a Dutch bank account – with luck he should be able to open an online account in another eurozone country where he’s less notorious. Hopefully by now someone has explained to him that he can obtain his CLN without ever filing a US tax return.
I don’t think the outcome would be any different in Canada, to be honest. If I went to one of the major banks and identified myself as a US citizen then pointedly refused to provide them with an SSN, they would take action – threaten to close the account, or impose a trading freeze for investments. If I complained to a banking regulator, I’d lose. If it took the bank to court, I’d lose. As for public sympathy, I doubt I’d gain much – every time this subject comes up in a CBC article, most of the comments express a “pay your fair share” or “you benefit from US citizenship” sentiment.
Why are they forcing customers to give a SSN? I thought that the financial institution had to do everything it could to obtain this information but in its absence, reporting the name and date of birth of the customer was sufficient? At least this is what I remember from the FACTA letters that I received from banks years ago. Is that a new requirement?
As of 1 January 2020, banks are required to provide the SSN or risk penalty. There was a grace period, which was extended once, but has now ended. So this year banks began threatening to close accounts for customers who would not provide an SSN – despite the fact that this became more difficult during the pandemic.
Oddly, we’ve heard no reports of anyone in Canada facing account closure. It’s mostly a problem in France and the Netherlands.
The smart move for anyone unable to conceal their US citizenship is to invent a fictional SSN.
I’ve come across several people in the UK who have been told that they must provide a SS number. If they don’t have a number, I tell them the pattern and suggest they make one up. Actually, even if they have a number, I suggest that they might want to scramble the order.
I can’t see that the banks have any way to check whether a number is real or not.
This well intended advise adds a potential legal problem to the compliance problem we already have vis-a-vis IRS. The banks will surely not be able tell whether or not an SSN is valid, but if the SSN you fabricate is not a valid SSN (= an SSN that was actually issued by the Social Security Administration), there will always be a chance of that being detected at some point after transmission to the IRS (for instance if there is an automatic check of valid SSNs when the FATCA data is imported into the IT systems at IRS). This may or may not trigger a chain of events which at some point could find it’s way back to your bank.
If on the other hand the SSN is valid, but not your own, then that means you claim your accounts belong to someone else, which may add potential problems to another person as well (in which case it SURELY would be detected, if that other person gets in trouble for having unreported accounts).
I appreciate the educational role of this site in terms of dealing with the fallout from FATCA, and I am surely sympathetic to those who advice that Accidental Americans should not file anything with the IRS, including when we renounce, but I would take care to not make a compliance problem with the IRS eventually turn into a legal problem where you live. Not so easy to hide from the latter.
As dual citizens abroad we have enough to cause us mental stress as it is; I would not add this to the mix.
‘Dear beloved customer, we write to you because the IRS has stated that they cannot match up the supplied SS number to your other records. Could you please reply with a corrected number? Much love, your Bank.’
‘Dear Bank, so sorry, I suffer from dyscalculia. Here’s the correct number. Love, your customer.’
‘Dear customer, that’s fine, we’ve amended your records. Have a good day! Your Bank.’
That’s how I would foresee that conversation happening. I would expect a bank to assume a simple customer error and ask for this to be corrected. Not a legal problem at all.
I can’t imagine much blowback either. FATCA data doesn’t get looked at in any systematic way, though of course one day in the future it might. If names and countries don’t match, the true owner of an invented SSN isn’t going to suffer any consequences.
It’s entirely appropriate to fight dirty. That being said, far better to conceal US citizenship and avoid this conversation in the first place, if one lives in a country where it is possible to so, like Canada and others (i.e. where ID requirements do include anything that gives away place of birth).
Typo correction: where ID requirements do not include anything that gives away place of birth
I’ll hazard a guess that the IRS FATCA data is already so riddled with errors (both intentional and accidental) that it is functionally useless. There’s just too much chance of errors due to the long chain of transmission. (I.e. customer>bank employee>bank records division>home government>IRS.)
So far, I’ve not heard of a single case of the IRS going after someone who doesn’t live in the US solely because of information the IRS received via FATCA reporting.
“Dear Bank: Never mind, I just renounced. I’ll drop by with my CLN as soon as I receive it. P.S, I don’t know what the issue is with the SSN. It matches MY records.”
Can a foreigner not open a bank account in Japan without disclosing their parents’ nationality and place of birth?
Obviously, if status as a USC was known, FIs in *any* (FATCA-compliant) country would report accounts to the US. But the point is, how would a Dutch national carrying a Dutch passport and born in the Netherlands be identified as a US person?
Reporting the accounts currently has no negative consequences for a dual citizen not interested in moving to the US, but that’s another issue. Still worth avoiding, on principle.
“ Can a foreigner not open a bank account in Japan without disclosing their parents’ nationality and place of birth?”
In short, no. A few years ago I opened a new account to find out for myself and to report here what the current requirements were. First I had to present my “Gaijin” card. Long explanation on this cut short. The new “Gaijin” card is optional for Japanese nationals but required of resident aliens. Upon this card is listed one’s nationality and immigration status. Despite that fact that I am a legal, Permanent Resident, I could not open the account until I returned with my passport and U.S SSN card or other proof of my SSN. As a USC, no US SSN=no account. I was also given a FATCA letter and release form to sign stating that I gave the bank permission to report all account activity to the IRS. If any of these were missing, I would not have been able to open the account. (Beyond this, when I first came to Japan as a civilian, one had to allow any rental service to photo copy your passport or gaijin card before engaging the service. Illegal for them to require these but if you refused, they refused you service.)
Additionally, I had to provide my Japanese My Number card which all Japanese residence are to have. Think of it as a super duper SSN. Its stated purpose is to make life more convenient by having a single number for ALL purposes. Not there yet but well on the way and again, that is its stated purpose.
My children were born in Japan. Their mother is Japanese. They have Japanese passports but have not been registered at the US embassy and do not have US SSNs. Yet, due to the fact that their My Numbers are linked to the Family Registry, the fact that their father was a USC at the time of their births is forever linked to their MY Number.
For the Dutch national in question, it would depend upon to what degree the automatic sharing of immigration info has progressed and how Japanese Immigration treat dual nationalities. I know that Japan does not in general recognize dual nationality with their own citizens but I do not know how they treat duals without Japanese nationality.
However, whatever the current situation is, it is undoubtably moving in directions that are unfavorable for us, including this Dutch national.
Talk about “I wish I knew this before.”, if I knew about CBT, I would never have ventured abroad with out taking precautions to protect myself, business associates and most importantly, family.
If our Dutchman does not in someway take care of his problem, he will constantly need to research what the current climate towards USCs are in each and every country he may wish to work in and possibly travel to or through. He would also have to consider the implications for any children he may have.
This is a cancer, ignoring it doesn’t make it go away.
@JapanT
Assume for the purposes of argument that our hypothetical Dutchman-born-in-the-Netherlands is willing to lie, or more benignly, remains blissfully unaware of his possible US citizenship via parentage. (I say possible because of course US citizenship is not automatically transmitted to all children born abroad.)
It’s possible that the immigration paperwork he fills out when entering Japan could ask for information about parents, including birthplace and nationality. That is the case for Germany, though the form field for place of birth (I just checked) is very small and there are no details given for what information belongs there. Again, the fact that one parent was born in the US does not automatically mean that a person is a US citizen.
However, you are suggesting that one parent’s US birthplace would be taken as a determination of US citizenship, and this information would find its way from an immigration form to a Japanese bank, during or after the process of opening an account?
BREAKING: Accidental Americans reel after Dutch court says bank may close account of retired KLM pilot
December 24, 2020
https://americanexpatfinance.com/news/item/610-dutch-court-says-bank-may-close-account-of-accidental
Unfortunate but not surprising. While I am not a lawyer, let along a Dutch lawyer, I thought the odds were not good based on reading about the earlier tribunal (KIFID) decision. Apparently Dutch banks may close a customer’s account if they believe it to be used for purposes of fraud, tax evasion or other random criminality. When Mr. Ariës publicly declared that he didn’t want to acquire an SSN because it might cause him to owe US taxes, he essentially sealed his fate.
At some point I’ll plug the whole decision into Google Translate (which is surprisingly good now) but that short excerpt sums it up well, the judge essentially saying that the whole situation sucks but politicians are responsible and there’s only so much he can do within the limits of the law.
The frustrating aspect to this case is that Mr. Ariës got it fundamentally wrong – being forced to supply his bank with an SSN creates no US tax bills for him. But by going to the tribunal, and then to the press, and then to court, he started in motion a process that would never end well for him. If he sacrificed himself for the sake of some publicity and general outrage, we can thank him if it helps solve the bigger problem. It may or may not.
At this point it’s probably going to be cheaper for Mr. Ariës to shut up and renounce – once that becomes possible – rather than continue paying lawyers to fight this. In the meantime he might need to live without a Dutch bank account – with luck he should be able to open an online account in another eurozone country where he’s less notorious. Hopefully by now someone has explained to him that he can obtain his CLN without ever filing a US tax return.
I don’t think the outcome would be any different in Canada, to be honest. If I went to one of the major banks and identified myself as a US citizen then pointedly refused to provide them with an SSN, they would take action – threaten to close the account, or impose a trading freeze for investments. If I complained to a banking regulator, I’d lose. If it took the bank to court, I’d lose. As for public sympathy, I doubt I’d gain much – every time this subject comes up in a CBC article, most of the comments express a “pay your fair share” or “you benefit from US citizenship” sentiment.
Why are they forcing customers to give a SSN? I thought that the financial institution had to do everything it could to obtain this information but in its absence, reporting the name and date of birth of the customer was sufficient? At least this is what I remember from the FACTA letters that I received from banks years ago. Is that a new requirement?
As of 1 January 2020, banks are required to provide the SSN or risk penalty. There was a grace period, which was extended once, but has now ended. So this year banks began threatening to close accounts for customers who would not provide an SSN – despite the fact that this became more difficult during the pandemic.
Oddly, we’ve heard no reports of anyone in Canada facing account closure. It’s mostly a problem in France and the Netherlands.
The smart move for anyone unable to conceal their US citizenship is to invent a fictional SSN.
I’ve come across several people in the UK who have been told that they must provide a SS number. If they don’t have a number, I tell them the pattern and suggest they make one up. Actually, even if they have a number, I suggest that they might want to scramble the order.
I can’t see that the banks have any way to check whether a number is real or not.
This well intended advise adds a potential legal problem to the compliance problem we already have vis-a-vis IRS. The banks will surely not be able tell whether or not an SSN is valid, but if the SSN you fabricate is not a valid SSN (= an SSN that was actually issued by the Social Security Administration), there will always be a chance of that being detected at some point after transmission to the IRS (for instance if there is an automatic check of valid SSNs when the FATCA data is imported into the IT systems at IRS). This may or may not trigger a chain of events which at some point could find it’s way back to your bank.
If on the other hand the SSN is valid, but not your own, then that means you claim your accounts belong to someone else, which may add potential problems to another person as well (in which case it SURELY would be detected, if that other person gets in trouble for having unreported accounts).
I appreciate the educational role of this site in terms of dealing with the fallout from FATCA, and I am surely sympathetic to those who advice that Accidental Americans should not file anything with the IRS, including when we renounce, but I would take care to not make a compliance problem with the IRS eventually turn into a legal problem where you live. Not so easy to hide from the latter.
As dual citizens abroad we have enough to cause us mental stress as it is; I would not add this to the mix.
‘Dear beloved customer, we write to you because the IRS has stated that they cannot match up the supplied SS number to your other records. Could you please reply with a corrected number? Much love, your Bank.’
‘Dear Bank, so sorry, I suffer from dyscalculia. Here’s the correct number. Love, your customer.’
‘Dear customer, that’s fine, we’ve amended your records. Have a good day! Your Bank.’
That’s how I would foresee that conversation happening. I would expect a bank to assume a simple customer error and ask for this to be corrected. Not a legal problem at all.
I can’t imagine much blowback either. FATCA data doesn’t get looked at in any systematic way, though of course one day in the future it might. If names and countries don’t match, the true owner of an invented SSN isn’t going to suffer any consequences.
It’s entirely appropriate to fight dirty. That being said, far better to conceal US citizenship and avoid this conversation in the first place, if one lives in a country where it is possible to so, like Canada and others (i.e. where ID requirements do include anything that gives away place of birth).
Typo correction: where ID requirements do not include anything that gives away place of birth
I’ll hazard a guess that the IRS FATCA data is already so riddled with errors (both intentional and accidental) that it is functionally useless. There’s just too much chance of errors due to the long chain of transmission. (I.e. customer>bank employee>bank records division>home government>IRS.)
So far, I’ve not heard of a single case of the IRS going after someone who doesn’t live in the US solely because of information the IRS received via FATCA reporting.
“Dear Bank: Never mind, I just renounced. I’ll drop by with my CLN as soon as I receive it. P.S, I don’t know what the issue is with the SSN. It matches MY records.”