Consulate Report Directory (Brockers Describe their Consulate Meetings) and CLN Delivery Time Chart Part 2
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Wonder what really happens at the consulates? Find out in the Isaac Brock Society’s Consulate Report Directory, currently 279 pages of first-hand accounts of renunciation/relinquishment appointments, arranged by consulate location, along with further information and links to the required Dept of State forms and the Dept of State manuals used by the consulates in processing CLN applications, with an appendix containing a timeline chart (booking-meeting-CLN) as reported by consulate location.
The Directory is updated as consulate visit stories are posted on the website.
You can post here or elsewhere on the site (we’ll keep an eye out for them). Some comments may be excerpted or condensed slightly in the consulate reports. The original posts and comments remain on their threads are not edited.
Thanks to everyone for sharing your experiences…and keep ’em coming! It’s a new experience for everyone and your information is really helpful.
To change or delete your report in the Directory, you can post the change as a comment on this thread or e-mail Pacifica@isaacbrocksociety.ca
Click here for the Consulate Report Directory
Notes:
Consulates are listed alphabetically by country and the Directory’s table of contents links to each section (they don’t look like links, but they are.)
This thread is a continuation of Consulate Report Directory Part 1, which contains earlier discussion on this topic, 929 comments from its inception in March 2012 through February 2013.
To Book an Appointment and/or Request Information from your Local Consulate:
This post by Eric, Almost No US Citizenship Renunciation Appointments Left During 2016 in Dublin, contains a chart of links to the consulates’ website pages on renunciation/relinquishment, for info on booking appointments and/or requesting information at your location. (The title highlights Dublin, but the charts, article and discussion cover consulates around the world.)
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@ J.N.
I should have mentioned my husband didn’t leave his original Canadian citizenship certificate with Passport Canada. He just showed it to them and they accepted keeping just a copy. They had to actually see the original apparently.
@em
That’s acceptable to me to show the original document or passport or birth certificate if I have it. And I presume for your husband that also was ok. Maybe they are afraid of fake documents? My birth certificate from Los Angeles had the Consul all excited: So beautiful with a golden stamped seal !(1942).I think he would have liked to frame it or recommend me to frame it. He probably had never seen something like that before. On my CLN you can barely see the stamped seal and on the scan or photocopy not at all.
@ J.N.
I know what you mean. My husband’s great-grandparents original marriage certificate is a work of art.
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/consulate2/comment-page-25/#comment-1501567
@ghost,
Sorry to hear that the consular official asked for your reason for expatriating. I was asked as well. And when I stated that I wanted to be a Canadian only, he followed up with “why now?”. Neither of which is any of their damn business. Exercising the right to relinquish/renounce – is recognized by US law. Exercising a legal RIGHT is not dependent on whether someone else – including a US official approves of the reason – and is not information that you are legally required to give in order to exercise your right to expatriate.
Sorry also that the official said you could not relinquish because of the US passport issue. That has become a handy Catch-22 for the US – demanding we travel only on a US passport over and into the US even if we are duals with another perfectly good one, yet then raising that as an obstacle to relinquishing – (also generating for them a nice 450. fee) though some have still been able to do that successfully by asking that their application be sent to Washington anyway despite the initial denial at the consulate – depending on other facts and circumstances that demonstrate an intent to relinquish US status at the time of the expatriating act – ex. swearing the citizenship oath to another country with intent to relinquish US citizenship.
Congratulations on getting past this part of the process. Thank you for telling us about it. Take care.
globalcitizen said:
They wanted the paper Canadian citizenship certificate (not the plastic card) for proof of citizenship as it has the date it happened and the card doesn’t.
This factoid provides a prime example of the data scatter at Brock that renders the swelling pile ever less useful. Every consulter is left to dredge the same morass for nuggets. To the experienced, this nugget is well-known, though likely resident only in wetware memory. It should be gathered into a tiny specified horde of watch-outs and gotchas.
Contribution of this blurble is nugget extraction. Others may follow, as noticed.
Some of the assiduous if not obsessive energies that swirl through Brock could be directed to establishing a drossless horde?
When I went to my renouncement last Sept they did not want the paper certificate. The plastic card is the only proof. On the plastic card is information about yp-ap. That is the year the photo was taken, which was about 6 months before I got citizenship in Canada. You do not have to prove the absolute date, although I think there was a place on one of the forms to state the date. ” I suspect procedures differ among consulates.
Kermitzii wrote:
That it does! It’s not the first time we’ve heard, even with renunciations, that one consulate wants the card and another wants the certificate. And even at any given consulate, we’ve seen procedures change over time.
The date of citizenship acquisition, whilst irrelevant to renunciation, is critical for a relinquishment based on naturalisation. So, the consulate (logically, IMO) wanted my certificate because it had the date of my naturalisation on it, even though the certificate says – in bold capital letters – “for verification of citizenship, use the certificate [the card] containing the photograph,” which made it feel somewhat bizarre as well as logical.
FWIW, at one time, Canada did not issue cards. The cards started in, I think it was, the mid-70s. As of January 2012, Canada once again only issues a certificate and no longer issues the photo card.
@ USX,
Re you wrote:
There’s no way Brock (or any website) could provide information applicable to every person at every consulate, so Brock doesn’t try or pretend to do that.
Brock does provide a concentrated source of data, organised by consulate location, the Consulate Report Directory, which on the bottom of every page says, “Please note procedures can vary by location and change over time.”
pacifica777 –
There are recurring specific problems that could better be addressed by compiling a checklist of watch-outs and gotchas. Pretty simple stuff to start up a list and add items as they become apparent. Far easier than spewing customized new reams of reassurance to each distressed newbie?
The existence of double Canadian citizenship certificate for whatever historical period, and the possibility that any particular consulate may ask for either or both. That is the particular checklist nugget. Having that information could have saved the supplicant extra hassle.
If nugget extraction is unwelcome, because everything is so complicated it has to be treated as one-off morass, I hereby cease and desist. Sauve qui peut.
@badger
Yes, exactly. I felt like pointing to the area of the form where it said I choose not to explain, but I didn’t want to be rude and give them a reason to be unhelpful. It was the only unnerving experience when I was talking with them.
It was not a huge issue for me but I understand it can be for some. Thanks, just waiting on the CLN.
How did they notify you for the CLN? Or still waiting?
@usxcanada
You clearly have lots of ideas about how a website dealing with these issues should be organized. Why don’t you just establish one yourself? Maybe you could explain there what “Sauve qui peut” means and why it’s prudent to end (almost) every post with it?
BC_Doc:
Any word on your CLN?
@MuzzledNoMore:
So….. I’ve been trying to process what happened at my consulate appointment before I posted anything here. Back in 2010, my spouse and I went to the consulate to take care of some unrelated business. At the appointment, the consular staff noted that my US passport had expired several years before and helpfully offered to renew it. As we were already there and not thinking of/aware of FATCA/FBAR, I of course said sure. Thinking back now (I had forgotten about this until I went in to relinquish), I recall being asked to sign the passport application and noticing on the form that there was a section that asked if I had sworn allegiance/naturalized as a citizen anywhere else since my previous passport. I pointed out that I was now Canadian since taking my citizenship in 2001 and asked if this was an issue. At this point, the consular staff (my recollection of this is fuzzy) said that I needed to put a two or three sentence letter in with the passport stating that I had become Canadian in 2001 but my intention was not to give up my US citizenship. Can you see where this is headed?
So here’s how my recent appointment went. I presented myself to the consulate and initially met with the local consular staff (non US citizen I believe). I was told everything looked good and that the consular officer would be coming to affirm the documents related to my relinquishment. A short time later I met with the consular officer who was polite and professional. He explained that as part of the relinquishment process, they had done their due diligence and reviewed all of my my prior contacts. In the process, they reviewed the documents from my 2010 passport renewal and come found the letter which stated my intent was not to relinquish USC (of which he had a copy). At this point, I was told based on the letter I wouldn’t be allowed to relinquish(fair enough– I had completely forgotten about the letter) but that he was willing to process me as a renunciation while I was there.
Mentally, I was prepared for the possibility that I might not be allowed to relinquish so my plan going in was to relinquish (2001 good) but walk if the relinquishment was not allowed (2014 potentially very bad). So my response– thank you for the offer, but I have will have to do my own due diligence before I renounce.
As to what I’ll do now, I’m undecided. For the time being, I will do what I’ve done for the past 22 years that I’ve been in Canada which is to hide in plain site (I’ve never filed since I left the US). Part of me is fairly pissed off by the idea of having to pay $450 to give up my right to walk up to the border and say “Let me in” without being asked “Where are you going? Why are you here? How long are you staying?”. Another part of me wants to say “Fuck it” and mail my US passport back to the State Department with a letter saying it was issued in error and they should keep it. I feel like now that the relinquishment card has been denied, renouncing is an option I can exercise any time I want (e.g. if thin yellow envelopes turn up at my door from the IRS wondering where I’ve been for the past 20+ years).
A final note. Before I finished my appointment, I asked the ACS consular officer if the Vancouver consulate was seeing a big uptake in numbers of people like myself coming in to relinquish or renounce as a result of the law that neither he or I are supposed to mention as the reason for renouncing/relinquishing. His response– “Too many to process.” I asked if news of this was being passed up the political line to policy makers who need to know this. His response– “Absolutely.”
What a situation to have to be in — hiding in plain sight. I’m so sorry relinquishment didn’t work for you, BC Doc. If only you had known — if only we educate others to know and not fall into the same ‘helpful’ trap.
Thanks for asking if the Vancouver US Consulate was seeing a big uptake in numbers of people like you coming in to relinquish or renounce as a result of the law that no one is supposed to mention as the reason for renouncing/relinquishing.
@BC Doc, sincere thanks for that update as it will help to educate others in many different ways.
You’re welcome George. I truly appreciate all of the good information and advice (thank you Pacifica!) I have gleaned from this website and over at the “Sandbox.” I am endebted! Thank you too Calgary411 for your kind words of moral support!
BC_Doc:
Many, many thanks for sharing your story with us. I am very sorry, indeed, to hear its conclusion. In fact, I am quite devastated as my own situation resembles yours in substance, if not in detail.
And so we go on as best we may.
You’re welcome Muzzled. Hopefully you’re in Canada too where we haven’t yet been faced with bank account closures like the folks in Europe. I have to say I’m reasonably optimistic that FATCA will eventually go down in flames on both sides of the border with the various legal challenges that are heating up here and in the US as well as political opposition to FATCA by the Republicans in the US. That said, in the words of Yogi Berra, “It’s tough to make predictions, especially about the future.” Cheers, BC Doc
@ BC Doc,
I’m very sorry that your meeting did not work out as originally hoped. Thank you for telling us about it. I share your thoughts that although we can’t predict the future (no matter what course of action we each take in this), everything may work out well in the long run re self-certification, or better yet FATCA being eviscerated or collapsing due to legal challenges, etc, and I wish you all the best.
With regards to the report of my mother’s renunciation in Calgary on December 12, 2013:
Her CLN was approved on April 15, 2014 and arrived in the mail on May 15, 2014.
@WhatAmI
Congratulaions to your mom. what a relieve. I relinquished formally July 15, 2013 and got my CLN in the mail May1st.
Congratulations to all who recently have got their CLNs. I am still feeling like I am going through the process of a diving chamber. I have this heavy feeling in my forehead but it is getting lighter.
Wonderful news for your mom and for her family, WhatAmI. I realize all the proactive work you did to help your mom with this to make sure expatriation and all involved would go smoothly for her.
Thanks for reporting here. Congratulations, all around, for your mom receiving her CLN!
@ WhatAmI
Congratulations to your mother! If the CLNs from Calgary continue at that rate my husband might get his CLN this summer. Fingers crossed. Although I’ve read that relinquishments can take longer than renunciations so we’ll see. I hope the whole process wasn’t excessively stressful for your mother but I imagine you were there to smooth the way for her as best you could. How does it feel to have a
looseFREE woman for a mom now?@WhatAmI, my congratulations to your mother too. It must be a real relief for her to finally have her CLN.
@ WhatAmI,
Really happy to hear your mom has her CLN! I remember in your report that officer sounded rather rude, so it’s especially nice to know that she now has this matter all wrapped up. Congratulations!