Consulate Report Directory (Brockers Describe their Consulate Meetings) and CLN Delivery Time Chart Part 2
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Wonder what really happens at the consulates? Find out in the Isaac Brock Society’s Consulate Report Directory, currently 279 pages of first-hand accounts of renunciation/relinquishment appointments, arranged by consulate location, along with further information and links to the required Dept of State forms and the Dept of State manuals used by the consulates in processing CLN applications, with an appendix containing a timeline chart (booking-meeting-CLN) as reported by consulate location.
The Directory is updated as consulate visit stories are posted on the website.
You can post here or elsewhere on the site (we’ll keep an eye out for them). Some comments may be excerpted or condensed slightly in the consulate reports. The original posts and comments remain on their threads are not edited.
Thanks to everyone for sharing your experiences…and keep ’em coming! It’s a new experience for everyone and your information is really helpful.
To change or delete your report in the Directory, you can post the change as a comment on this thread or e-mail Pacifica@isaacbrocksociety.ca
Click here for the Consulate Report Directory
Notes:
Consulates are listed alphabetically by country and the Directory’s table of contents links to each section (they don’t look like links, but they are.)
This thread is a continuation of Consulate Report Directory Part 1, which contains earlier discussion on this topic, 929 comments from its inception in March 2012 through February 2013.
To Book an Appointment and/or Request Information from your Local Consulate:
This post by Eric, Almost No US Citizenship Renunciation Appointments Left During 2016 in Dublin, contains a chart of links to the consulates’ website pages on renunciation/relinquishment, for info on booking appointments and/or requesting information at your location. (The title highlights Dublin, but the charts, article and discussion cover consulates around the world.)
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@MedeaFleecestealer: I am currently in the process of requesting my CLN from the Vancouver consulate (relinquishing). I contacted the consulate in mid-February via e-mail to get the ball rolling. I received an auto-reply e-mail with instructions on how to proceed. I then forwarded my completed DS-4079 via e-mail to the ACS e-mail address. I received a call within a few hours offering me an appointment (one visit to renounce or relinquish). I initially took an appointment for mid-March. As one aspect of my application had to be reviewed by the State Department, my initial appointment was subsequently rescheduled for April. The Vancouver consular staff have so far been professional and efficient.
I suspect the number inquiries and applications to relinquish or renounce US citizenship has ramped up since the Canadian government announced the FATCA IGA back in early February. The one-appoinment visits will help the consulates manage the deluge of “US persons” rushing to the exits. I suspect there will be some US politicians with pie on their faces when 2014 figures for relinquishments/renunciations are released. As someone with relatives who fought and died for the US, I find this all very sad and shameful.
@BC_Doc, that’s good to know Vancouver is reacting so quickly to queries for appointments. They really seem to have changed their previous attitude completely which can only be better for those who want/need to use their services.
Yes, it’ll be interesting to see if this year’s figures beat those of 2013. I fear that many, whether from their own investigations or by being contacted by their banks, will have their own OMG moment and seriously consider dumping the US. There are so many out there who still don’t realise they should even be filing US returns, let alone what effect FATCA is going to have on their lives.
I read Petros’s post a couple of years ago about avoiding the $450 fee because he was relinquishing, not renouncing. Can you folks who have relinquished confirm that you avoided the $450 fee because it was relinquishment not renouncement?
@mel56, yes that’s still the case in Canada.
Yes, saved $450.00 per person for 4 family members by relinquishment. BUT even more important it made the effective date of our loss of Citizenship about 8.5 years prior to the day we finished the relinquishment process. This was a huge moral victory for us and it in my mind is a leagal document that says to the US “Hands off, I’m not your property as of the day I left your shores with no intent to ever return.”
@miel56, I can confirm that I avoided the $450 fee. The reason: you relinquish without the help of the Consulate by doing a potentially expatriating act (e.g., taking foreign citizenship, pledging allegiance to a foreign sovereign, etc.). You go to inform the US Consulate that you are no longer a US citizen, not to relinquish, but that you have already relinquished.
Relinquish or renounce ,,there is still paper work.. 4079 form ,,IRS..has questions ..8. Thru 11 ,on acts for relinquish ment ..you still will have to get cln
@Robert
You shouldn’t have to file 4079 when renouncing. There’s no reason for it and if anyone is asked for it they should refuse.
thanks to @medea @yitzi and @petros for the confirmation that i can still avoid the 450 bucks on relinquishment
I’m very happy to report that a friend, who was born dual when his parents were temporarily in the US, phoned me in good spirits after his consulate meeting at Ottawa. His relinquishment is based on his taking government employment 30 years ago, which he believed at the time he had terminated his US citizenship. Then came 2014 and OMG day …
Back to his consulate meeting, I hadn’t heard anything at all about Ottawa since last summer (at which time things sounded fine as they had since Jan 2013) but the silence felt a little ominous to me because they had such a bad reputation back in 2011-12.
However, Ottawa appears to have stayed on the positive track it took in 2013. He found the staff both pleasant and aware that s. (4) applies to any US citizen, including those who were born dual. He said the meeting took about 10 minutes and there were no problems whatsoever.
He had put together a very well prepared and well documented file and he asked me to thank Brockers because the information here was a really big help. PrairieGirl, BenedictArnold and WhatAmI particularly for their knowledge/experience with s. (4), and everybody for general information and support.
@pacifica777
that is very nice news to hear. I am happy for your friend.
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@Pacifica
I’ve finally got my CLN, hooray! Six months.
At long last I can put in my report, how do I do it?
@ Shunrata,
Congratulations on your CLN!
Looking forward to your report. You can just post it as a comment here and I’ll cut and paste it into the directory.
Not amused .. The form 4079 is required for relinquish and renounce according to the state dept. manual on the sub. Look it up and copy . And yes it is poorly written.. Consider the source .. Glad i am gone
@ Pacifica
This may be a little off the topic, and I don’t know how else to contact you. But I am wondering about the following exchange you had at Hodgen Law Blog and if you got a better answer.
I have the same question as you did. If find it wrong that the State Department who determines citizenship status says that a person lost citizenship years prior and the IRS just ignores the documented facts and claims to only recognize the date of the CLN being approved for it’s purposes.
I am approaching the date at which I am supposed to file the IRS exit form (8854?) and I find it to be a conflict with common sense. One of the tests for relinquishment by the State Department was that I had not filed tax returns since the date I expatriated myself years prior. Yet now I must file as if I were a citizen for a period in which it’s documented that I was not a citizen.
The exchange from the Hodgen Blog…….
Pacifica777 says Jun 7, 2012 6:53 am
Hi Phil,
I’d appreciate if you could clear up this really important question regarding exit and other tax obligations? Do IRS obligations and 877A apply ex post facto to people who expatriated before the law itself was in effect?
I relinquished in the 70s, back when both the US and Canadian govts told us that loss of US citizenship was automatic upon taking Canadian citizenship, and no one ever mentioned CLNs back then. I was truly shocked recently to learn I might have an unexpected citizenship. However, the US consulate has confirmed my belief that I ceased to be a USC in 1979 and that I will get a CLN to that effect.
As I understand it, prior to HIPAA (1996) IRS obligations ended the day US citizenship ended … then HIPAA created the notion that IRS obligations ended, not with the act of relinquishment, but on the date you notify Dept of State of the relinquishment.
The current law, as far as I’m aware, is 877A, enacted in 2008. It also continues IRS obligations until the date you notify Dept of State of the relinquishment.
I understand that US laws are not ex post facto, unless stated to be such. But US law often seems not only unfamiliar, but downright illogical, to me … logging out of the US govt is the first interaction I’ve ever had with it in my life … and it’s driving me nuts!
So, I ceased to be a USC in 1979. I notified DOS of this in 2012. So, did I cease to be an “IRS person” in 1979 or 2012?
Hopefully, 1979. But either way, at least I’ll know what I’m supposed to do … I can’t wait to close the book on this truly disturbing interlude of my life.
Thanks,
Pacifica
Phil says Jun 7, 2012 7:48 am
@Pacifica777,
This is a vexing problem. I am going to have to write an actual blog post about it. As you note, Section 877A(g)(3)(B) would seem to be the provision that applies to you. It says, for someone like you, that your “expatriation date” is the date you give the U.S.A. the piece of paper saying you ceased being a citizen in 1979:
“[Expatriation date] means the date the individual furnishes to the United States Department of State a signed statement of voluntary relinquishment of United States nationality confirming the performance of an act of expatriation specified in paragraph (1), (2), (3), or (4) of section 349(a) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1481(a)(1)-(4))[.]“
This means that you will get your Certificate of Loss of Nationality backdated to 1979, but from the IRS point of view they will take 2012 as your expatriation date.
This is going to require someone to be a crash-test dummy to test this in the Federal courts. I agree that it is unfair. I doubt that I would want to be that crash-test dummy.
Hi Yitzi,
That was about 2 years ago I asked Phil about it. Since then, I’ve spoken with some lawyers and their opinion was that the law is not retroactive. Have you checked out the link on the Sidebar: “Important! If relinquishment act performed prior to 4 June 2004.” That link has a list of several threads on the topic, one of which is a post about Lagoon’s seeking opinions from 3 lawyers. They felt the law is not retroactive (interestingly one felt differently at first, but after further research came to this conclusion).
If you’d like to get in touch, please do — my e-mail is pacifica@isaacbrocksociety.ca
***
Update 4 April 2014: A week after I posted this comment, I saw that Phil recently spoke about this with Global News (Toronto) reporter Patrick Cain, “A backdated relinquishment can simplify or eliminate tax reporting requirements; if it was from long enough ago, says California-based international tax lawyer Phil Hodgen, you may be able to escape the paperwork entirely.”
Pacifica,
Here’s a good link for the Consulate Report Directory: http://esseragaroth.blogspot.co.il/search/label/Renunciation.
Thanks, Calgary.
That’s a great detailed report! I’ll put a link to it in the Jerusalem section.
Yitzi –
You need to realize that pacifica777 consistently pushes a one-sided story … the one side that pacifica777 chooses to believe.
That was about 2 years ago I asked Phil about it. Since then, I’ve spoken with some lawyers and their opinion was that the law is not retroactive.
Notice how pacifica777 left out the word other ahead of “lawyers.” Phil Hodgen also happens to be a highly qualified lawyer, one who likely does more practice in expatriation than “some lawyers” do. Hodgen is busy enough right now that he won’t talk to you at all until after 30 June 2014.
Everything to do with US personhood seems infuriatingly arbitrary and complex. This question is not settled. No one is well-served by repeated retailing of personal bias.
“Some lawyers” doing backdoor gossip with some IRS agents doesn’t seem like a basis for anything more than arriving at one speculative position.
There are other well-qualified opposing views. And no clear answers. Sauve qui peut.
Is anybody here aware of anybody with a relinquishment date prior to June 2004) who went ahead and filed back taxes and form 8854?
I am so confused…. I contacted the consulate in Toronto to request an appointment. They e-mailed all of the docs I need to fill out. I plan to argue that I lost my citizenship when I committed an expatriating act of taking Canadian citizenship in June of 2005. I am informing them of that fact. I don’t care about the $450 fee. What I’m concerned about is the IRS exit tax and form 8854. Do I really need to fill this out??? I could potentially get hit with an exit tax because my house in Canada has appreciated in value, or because my husband’s mutual funds have increased in value. Do I fill 8854 out based on today’s (2014) information??? Or do i input information based on the 2005 tax year??? As far as I’m concerned I have not been a “US person” since 2005.
@USX,
Yitzi asked me a question about my personal experience. I answered it. Had one of the lawyers I spoke with provided a different opinion, I would have told him that. I think that withholding any info in replying to a fellow former-USC’s question would be a rather rotten thing to do, because this is very important and we all need as much info as we can get. I believe this is one of those decisions each person must make based on their own research, analysis and fact set.
My relinquishment experience, (while trying to help my daughter with compound interest):
Place: Melbourne, Australia
Relinquishment September 2013
Consulate meeting October 2013
CLN received March 2014
I contacted the consulate by email the day after taking my pledge of Australian citizenship, notifying them of my relinquishment of US citizenship and asking them what I needed to do. After about a week I received an email from them saying they would shortly send me more information. (They didn’t.)
After a few weeks I called and reminded them I was waiting for the information – a few days later they sent a few questions which I answered. Shortly after that I received another email with more questions (nothing too difficult, things like last US address, passport number etc.) and a DS-4079 attached, which I was supposed to fill out, not sign, and scan and email back. So I did.
No answer, again, so… I called again after a few weeks (we were now mid October) and tried to get an appointment as soon as possible – they were very nice about it and managed to squeeze me in the next week. I’m pretty sure this was a case of the squeaky wheel getting the grease, and that otherwise it would have taken months; relinquishments are rather low on their list of priorities. I just didn’t want it to drag into 2014 and put me over the line for another year’s filing obligation.
My appointment was on a weekday afternoon during regular hours – there were people there dealing with other business as well and there was quite a bit of activity. After a bit of a wait I was called to one of the windows where a clerk checked out my documents and I turned in my passport. Another short wait and I was called again to have a short chat with the (vice?) consul, who was very professional, and not aggressive or hostile at all. She verified that I knew what I was doing and that I understood that I would not be relieved of prior tax obligations. She also asked why I was relinquishing – I know I was not obligated to answer but simply told her that I left the US nearly 40 years ago and am not planning on returning, and US citizen status was an impediment to getting a job in my field as I cannot reasonably have signing authority on company accounts. This seemed to be acceptable and wasn’t pursued further.
As it was not a renunciation I didn’t have to take an oath, but did have to “affirm” that my information was true and sign the original DS-4079 (which I had brought with me) in front of her . I didn’t get any sort of receipt as there was no fee involved. They gave me a time frame of six weeks to two months to receive my CLN, which unsurprisingly came and went with no news. I contacted them again and they extended the time frame – until one fine day in March 2014 they emailed to say my CLN was ready, and would I like to come pick it up or should they send it in the post? I said “post, please”, and in less than 24 hours an express envelope containing my CLN was in my mailbox, together with a letter cautioning me to keep it safe as I may need it should I travel to the US in future. My cancelled passport was included as well.
Total time 6 months, and I have nothing negative to say about the US consulate in Melbourne. They were polite, helpful and friendly throughout, and went out of their way to get me an earlier appointment, though they seem to be quite busy with other matters. If only all dealings with the US government were so positive!
I am very grateful to all the help and support I’ve gotten here, especially as most Brockers are understandably more concerned with the Canadian situation, and I’m a bit “offshore” as far as that goes. 🙂
Ozteddies especially helped me with the ins and outs of the Australian experience and we emailed quite a bit, and even met in the city. He was the first to congratulate me on my relinquishment — sadly he passed away shortly thereafter.
May all who choose to renounce or relinquish have as smooth a time as I did.