I am posting below (with permission) details of the experience of a young person of legal age who attempted to renounce United States citizenship at a US Consulate in Canada.
Readers have weighed in whether the behaviour of the Consular official was appropriate or not.
The FIRST part of this post is the detailed December 19, 2019 personal account of the person, followed by an earlier April 10 2019 second hand summary of the experience.
DECEMBER 19, 2019 DETAILED FIRST-HAND ACCOUNT OF EXPERIENCE OF YOUNG PERSON ATTEMPTING TO RENOUNCE AT US CONSULATE IN CANADA:
“In July 2018, I sent an email request for a renunciation appointment to be scheduled for after my 18th birthday, since I was not yet 18 years old at the time. I needed to wait until my birthday because according to U.S. law, they can deny an application from minors, but they cannot deny an application from a legal adult unless they suspect that said adult is being coerced. In January 2019 I finally received a reply, scheduling an appointment at the Halifax consulate for March 2019.
On the day of the appointment, I arrived a few minutes early and had to wait for the consulate to open (I think I was the first item on their schedule for that day). The building where the consulate is located is very nice and modern, full of business suites for law firms and the like. The consulate occupies its own floor accessible only by elevator, and when I got there, I had to buzz in using what looked like a doorbell camera from an apartment building. Once inside the consulate proper, there was only a single guard, who was quite friendly until I informed him that I was carrying an Epi-Pen because of my severe food allergy. He seemed worried about this as if it was some sort of threat and confiscated it, saying that I could have it back when I left. I asked him what would happen if I needed it, and he obfuscated for a few seconds before telling me to continue into the waiting area, never answering my question. The consulate itself is very small – a single room with about 20 chairs in the middle, three bank teller-style windows in one wall, and the guard’s desk and metal detector by the entrance. At this point the guard and I were the only people in the room.
I waited for probably 15 minutes before a clerk appeared in one of the windows and called my name. She took my documentation and I sat back down and waited for probably another 10 minutes before my name was called again. I went up to the next window and paid the $2,350 USD in cash, which the clerk seemed irritated by. She gave me a receipt and told me to wait again. While I was waiting a family came into the consulate for what I think was U.S. travel visas, based on snippets of conversation I accidentally overheard. After maybe 20 more minutes of waiting I was called to the third window, which had a chair set out in front. I sat down, and the woman behind the window introduced herself as the vice-consul. We had to speak through microphones that didn’t work very well and kept cutting out, and there was a slot at the bottom of the window for passing documents through.
The vice-consul started by asking me to confirm my identity and my intent to renounce my citizenship. I raised my right hand and swore to tell the truth, as directed. The vice-consul then began going through my documents and asked me about the circumstances of my birth. From this point forward I remember clearly what was said but I cannot recall exactly the order of events because the questioning became very intense and intimidating, and I went into autopilot mode. The consulate probably knows exactly how the conversation played out, however, due to the surveillance camera conveniently located right above the interview window.
I do remember that it began with her incredulity that I was trying to renounce at only 18 years old, because according to her, I didn’t have enough life experience to do so. She asked me why I chose to renounce at this time, and I said it was because I legally could and wanted to, and she seemed irritated by my lack of elaboration. Since I was still in high school, had not travelled extensively outside of North America, had not been to the U.S. much in the past few years, and had yet to vote in any election, she claimed that I clearly didn’t know enough about the world to make such a monumental decision. I told her that I planned to vote and travel later and just had not been able to do so yet because I was not old enough, but she wasn’t satisfied. She asked me to list everywhere I had ever lived, and what jobs my parents held in each location. When I told her that some of my parents’ jobs were with the U.S. government, she seemed very suspicious about it. She also made some strange comments about the fact that we moved quite often during my childhood, as if she suspected that we were involved in something shady.
Now, the law clearly states that I don’t have to give a reason, but she told me in no uncertain terms that a person as young as me must prove to her that I am of sound enough mind and have a good enough reason to renounce. This is blatantly untrue, and I knew that during the interview, but I felt very intimidated by the vice-consul and I had to appease her in order to get through the interview and not waste the massive amount of money I had just paid. She asked me about my career aspirations, and when I told her that I might go into medicine, she said that I should keep an open mind about medical school and residency in the States. When I told her I would rather stay in Canada for my education, she seemed bewildered and asked me if I had really thought about it, because if I had thought about it properly, I must be at least considering going to the U.S. I said I had considered it plenty, and I preferred Canada. She kept pressing me about it, asking me why I didn’t go to university in the States, or take a gap year and travel there. I said I didn’t want to. Every time I said I didn’t want to go to the U.S. her expression became more and more confused. She then said that I should keep my citizenship because if I ever decide to travel internationally, American diplomats and military can provide more protection if I get kidnapped abroad. She said that a maple leaf on my backpack can only get me so far, that nothing can protect me as well as a U.S. passport, and because of that I need to keep my citizenship for my own safety while travelling. I didn’t know quite how to respond to that, so I just said that I had made my decision and hoped she’d back off. She didn’t.
Sometime after that she began trying to construct a case that my parents were coercing me into renouncing. She started asking all sorts of leading questions – were my parents still citizens, did we discuss renunciation at home, did I go with them to their renunciation appointments, how long I had been thinking about renouncing, did they suggest that I do it, and did they drive me to my appointment that day. I answered that I did hear about it from them but that the decision to renounce was my own; and furthermore, since I can’t drive and am from out of town, I couldn’t have gotten there without being driven by my parents. She seemed very confused by my answers and muttered under her breath several times that she didn’t understand my reasoning.
The vice-consul also asked me about my Canadian citizenship. I naturalized when I was a kid, having moved to Canada at a young age. She asked me why I didn’t want to stay as a dual citizen, and I told her it was because I felt Canadian, not American, and I didn’t want to keep a nationality I didn’t identify with. She didn’t take that as an answer, so I said I thought it would be easier to just have one citizenship. She said that having American citizenship had no downsides, and used herself as an example – she explained that she had a very high security clearance and an important job in the U.S. foreign service and her dual Canadian/American citizenship didn’t cause any problems for her. I thought it was rather inappropriate for her to be talking about details of her job, especially her security clearance, in a renunciation interview, but I didn’t say anything about it. She clearly expected me to acquiesce and admit that she was right, but I just said that I wanted to get rid of my American citizenship and that I was determined to go through with it. She was visibly frustrated by my response, and said again that she didn’t understand my reasoning.
She also had a very low opinion of young people such as myself, which came out on multiple occasions during the interview. She made several comments about young people being impatient, not understanding the world, making uninformed decisions, et cetera. She said at one point that I was being naive, that young people are always so blasé about serious matters, and that I would surely regret this decision once I was older and wiser. I felt insulted by the constant references to my youth, and during the entire interview I felt I was being treated like a child.The interview went on for about half an hour of hard grilling before the vice-consul suddenly gave up. I think she was trying to wear me down and intimidate me into cancelling my renunciation, and after I refused to do so, she decided to drop it. After she asked me her last question, she audibly sighed and pushed the papers I would need to sign through the slot in the window. She asked me to read several documents and summarize them for her. I did so, signed both copies, and gave them back in exchange for the the document containing the oath of renunciation. I had expected to raise my hand, swear, or do something officially binding while reciting the oath, but she just asked me to read the oath out loud, which I did. I signed both copies of the oath and gave them back. Meanwhile, it was very clear that the family in the waiting area had heard everything that was said between the vice-consul and myself, and it was unexpectedly very embarrassing to have to defend my decision to renounce my citizenship from a high-ranking diplomat in front of people who were actively trying to get into the U.S.
The vice-consul went on to explain that Washington would respond in a few months with either a CLN or a letter of denial, and that I would have to be patient. She added another rude comment under her breath about people my age being impatient. She also said that young people who decided to do this often come to regret their decision after a couple months, and if I regret mine before receiving my CLN, I could write the consulate and try to get it stopped. She also gave me a temporary CLN to use if I had to travel abroad before the legitimate one arrived. She returned my documents to me and very brusquely asked me to leave. I reclaimed my Epi-Pen from the guard and left the consulate without incident. The appointment took around an hour and 15 minutes in total, about half of which constituted the interview. After I left, I was externally calm but internally very shaken, since I felt that my rights had been violated. The vice-consul abused her position of authority over me during the interview in order to intimidate me into keeping my citizenship, and I was very afraid that my application would be rejected. It felt like I was trying to a leave a cult.
My CLN arrived in April 2019, just over a month after my renunciation appointment. I was surprised that it arrived so quickly, but I was also very relieved that I had been approved after all. I was glad to have it over and done with. Forever.”
APRIL 10, 2019 SECOND-HAND SUMMARY ACCOUNT OF EXPERIENCE OF YOUNG PERSON ATTEMPTING TO RENOUNCE AT US CONSULATE IN CANADA:
“Anyone preparing to renounce their US citizenship needs to be aware of a situation affecting a young adult renunciant of which I have recently become aware.
This person attempted to renounce at a US Consulate in Canada and received an unpleasant surprise. Instead of the standard brief interview process, which typically involves being made aware of the consequences of renunciation and determination of voluntariness, this person was subjected an almost 30-minute grilling by the Vice Consul about how foolish their intention to renounce was, especially at their young age, accompanied by proselytizing about the virtues of American citizenship.
It was explicitly stated by this official that they had to know, in detail, why this person was renouncing and that they had to be fully convinced of the validity of their motives before the renunciation could be forwarded to Washington for approval, as if they were a minor under 18 instead of an adult.
The Vice Consul badgered the young person, asking again and again for an explanation, even though they had clearly said that they did not wish to make a statement about why they were renouncing, both in the paperwork and in person at the interview.
In particular, the Vice Consul insinuated that the young person was most likely being coerced by their parents because no young adult would have the life experience or understanding to take such a monumental action.
Also, they spent a good portion of this “lecture” extolling the virtues of maintaining US citizenship and even derided the young person for not considering attending university in the US. The Vice Consul called them “naive” and “blasé” and said that they were acting “rashly”, even though the person in question is very mature, intelligent, well-spoken, and firmly resolute in this decision and in their motivations.
The Vice Consul went on to say that it was extremely rare that an 18 year-old person would take this action and that “it didn’t make any sense.”
The Vice Consul also said there was no reason to renounce because there were no negative consequences to holding both citizenships.
She then implied that Canadian citizenship wasn’t as valuable because Canada couldn’t/wouldn’t help out like America could/would while travelling abroad (e.g., consular assistance, military rescue, etc.), even saying that the Canadian flag on the backpack would only get you so far but that travelling under the US passport gave you the most safety of all.
While the Vice Consul was technically polite and did not raise her voice, it appeared to the young renunciant that the official’s intent was to manipulate. In their opinion, the Vice Consul’s actions constituted a clear attempt to intimidate and to spread pro-American propaganda and to create doubt in their mind about whether they should renounce or whether they even had the right to renounce at this age (even though they are an adult). Accordingly, they are now afraid that the State Department will reject the renunciation and keep the USD$2350 due to the Vice Consul’s willingness to bully them in this way.
I don’t know if this is a new policy being implemented by the State Department or if it is a random occurrence happening to this one person but anyone planning to renounce should be prepared for an intense grilling about motives and unprofessional conduct by consular officials, especially if they are young adults.
This young person feels strongly that their human right to expatriate without interference, as guaranteed by the Expatriation Act of 1868, the Immigration and Nationality Act, and the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights, was clearly infringed. Be aware and be prepared.”
Experience of young adult person when attempting to renounce U.S. citizenship at U.S. Consulate in Canada.
Are you at liberty to say at which consulate this happened?
One can only hope that this was a one-off case of an over-zealous vice consul who has been drinking the “USA Kool Aid” all her life and who genuinely believed that the young person was making a terrible and ill informed mistake. Her entire world view that the USA is “the greatest country in the world” was being challenged. She probably imagined she had the best of intentions. But hell, as the saying goes, is paved with good intentions and her over-zealous grilling clearly crossed the line from concern to cajoling/bullying behaviour and has understandably upset the young person.
“The Vice Consul went on to say that it was extremely rare that an 18 year-old person would take this action and that “it didn’t make any sense.””
Well I guess I was one of the rare ones. I decided as a teenager that I didn’t want to be an American citizen, I left the United States as soon as I could at the age of 18 on my own and moved to Canada. I then took steps to become Canadian and to lose my U.S. citizenship. Finally last year the DOS after a long battle gave me my CLN.
This was no error of immaturity or lack of judgement. It was a very good decision that I have NEVER regretted.
I am sorry this young person had such a difficult time with the consulate and hope that their CLN arrives without any problems.
There was a post on Keith Redmond’s FB group earlier this year about a similar thing happening in London. The young adult in question withdrew her application. The FB poster was her mother, but she never made it clear whether the application was refused (on grounds of perceived coercion possibly) or the daughter voluntarily chose not to continue.
We also had someone here fairly recently talking about his 19-year-old son wishing to renounce, and I suggested that they be prepared for a more intensive set of questions than someone older. I would not be surprised if it was the same individual.
I would also not be surprised if (1) there was a policy to more strictly examine younger would-be renunciants, or (2) there was no such policy and this was simply a coincidence, separate consular officials taking the initiative. It’s not too difficult to imagine why they would want to talk a young person out of such a decision, as unpleasant as we find the idea.
What makes this such a silly dance is that everyone knows why people renounce – can’t be that many folks out there willing to shell out US$2350 simply because they dislike Trump – but the subject of taxes cannot (or at least should not) be said out loud during the interview.
Following.
Just read my experience. I went through hell in my relinquishment interview.
The Kool aid river flows deep. The believers gonna believe.
I’m actually surprised that with the current administration filling the posts that there hasn’t been more of this.
The US has long stopped being a country: it’s a cult, pure and simple, complete with the obligatory brainwashed acolytes.
We had a similar incident reported from the Melbourne consulate in our FB group.
This is outrageous.
Regarding the CLN, assuming the vice consul sends a standard Consular Opinion Letter (see excerpt below) with the file, DC will approve it, regardless of age, as the DC office is in no position to determine if a person (of any age) is competent to understand the consequences.
If a vice consul were to send a negative opinion letter (eg, “the person did not appear to be acting out of free will”/”did not appear to comprehend the consequences”/whatever,) that would create a problem.
Sample Consular Opinion Letter, 7 FAM 1269 (Sorry, the link won’t paste)
BTW, in my experience, State Dept is pretty down on bullying. When I reported being bullied, I heard back –by phone – within two days of sending my letter by courier. They fixed the problem and I got my CLN and the consulate stopped bullying. DC seems pretty level-headed, but there are definitely some rogues out there in the field. Worth making a complaint, IMO.
I was asked to supply a reason even though I declined to include a reason with my paperwork about why it was my decision to renounce. He said he was required to ask. I looked him in the eye and said “Nine years in the US, forty+ in Canada. Who do you think I am? I am Canadian.” I didn’t think they were suppose to ask. It seems to be different from consulate to consulate. I have a friend whose daughter renounced. She was 23 or 24. I am going to ask her what happened when her daughter renounced. Maybe it was different for her as she was born in Canada.
That person should lodge an official compliant with the US State Department describing the intimidation they were subjected to during the interview. That was totally unprofessional and definitely not according to the manual. With a little luck they might exact some revenge and earn that Vice Consul a reprimand or worse.
Fortunately, as long as the person was eventually allowed to swear the oath of renunciation, there should be no problem getting the CLN.
Pacifica posted as I was typing. All the more reason for the young person to officially complain, just for back up in case there is any confusion in DC.
@maz57– I wonder if the individual should complain to their MP too so that it can get escalated up on the Canadian government side too. The Consulate should here about this from its host too.
A similar thing happened to me during my first interview when I renounced in Europe back in 2013.
The first interview was a grilling, almost hostile. The Vice Counsel kept trying to bait me into admitting that I was renouncing for tax purposes. Presumably so she could then use the Reed Act to scare me into not going through with it.
The second interview was the opposite (tried to sweet talk me out of it) and performed by another person, who I believe was the Counsel. It was during this interview that I was given the old, “but we will send the Marines to rescue you” bullshit. I have to admit, it was a real challenge trying to contain myself from busting out laughing when she said that.
In any case, I said as few words as possible, insisting that renouncing was my right and I was exercising the right to do so.
I think the best thing to do for preparation is to put one’s game face on and say as few words as possible. One never knows what kind of curve balls they may throw at you.
This incident warrants a letter of complaint to the DOS. Whether it is a nation such as Venezuela or a young adult such as this unfortunate renunciant, perceived vulnerability seems to swell the American ego and often elicits a bully response. Sadly, diplomacy and respect for others are very close to being defunct in the USA these days. We don’t want to let this intimidation tactic become SOP in the consulates. Nip it in the bud. Alert the DOS to the problem.
@BC_Doc. Good idea. Canada needs to inform the US in no uncertain terms to stop impeding the right of Canadians to be Canadian only. $2350 is bad enough; intimidation at a renunciation interview is over the top.
@Walt. “but we will send the Marines to rescue you” The US isn’t the only country in the world that has helicopters. I’d be laughing too.
@EmBee. Apparently the best way to get some respect from the US government is to acquire a few nuclear weapons.
Had called a US Consulate for help once (Still have the documentation,…..) and they were no help at all! In fact, if there is a military action to remove US Citizens from a hostile zone, or the US Government Charters Flights to get people out, they make you sign a document indicating that you are liable for the costs and agree to pay them back! And if you do not, they hold your US Passport as collateral until paid in full.
This person should be doxxed, expelled from the country, and publicly shamed so they can never work in a position of responsibility again.
@Stephen
Yup. Evacuees are required to sign a “promissory note” that they will pay for the evacuation.
https://eforms.state.gov/Forms/ds5528.PDF
@UnforgivenToo
“The US has long stopped being a country: it’s a cult, pure and simple, complete with the obligatory brainwashed acolytes.”
It’s a cult epitomising the virtues of hee-haw hell.
The person in Melbourne (Australia) who tried to renounce got as far as paying the deposit but the consular official refused to let them take the renuciation oath because the person didn’t want to provide a reason. Apparently, the consular official said that she would have to check with the Department whether that was okay before allowing the person to take the oath. It all sounded like manipulative bullying to me!
All great powers/empires are cults. In order to become a great/power empire it is essential that governments be able to mobilize the people and focus their thinking in a relatively unified way. That’s why dissent is so dangerous. That’s why China is attacking its Muslim minorities. That’s why there is government censorship of information.
Just this week I had a long discussion with a Russian immigrant to Canada who had grown up in the former Soviet Union. The person repeatedly reinforced that he was was growing up in the Soviet Union (during the 80s) that he was told and believed that Russia was the greatest country in the world. If you go to China today you will find its citizens/residents saying the same thing about China.
The U.S. cult is not unusual. It was essential to the USA becoming a great power and it’s essential for it to remain a great power.
I think its important (when reading the description of this renunciation experience) to remember that:
1. It is not clear where the description of this comes from. Is the young person describing this or is it somebody else?
2. I suspect that few of the renunciants are people as young as this one. If the legal test includes intention/voluntariness then it is reasonable for the consular person to ensure this requirements are met.
3. Many people renounce U.S. citizenship because they are being financially damaged by it. A young person like this is not likely to be damaged by it (at least now now).
4. U.S. citizenship is far more valuable to a younger person who is considering career opportunities than it is too an older person who is thinking in terms of retirement.
5. There is the possibility of change in U.S. tax policy. This would benefit a younger person.
I do understand that the point of the post is to discuss the possible bullying. But, it strikes me that (given the finality of the decision) it’s reasonable for a consular officer to ensure that the person really does understand what he/she is doing.
It is unlikely that the renunciation will be refused. A refusal would be evidence of a clear problem.
You’ve brought up good points, USCA. One thing that struck me regarding your first point — “It is not clear where the description of this comes from. Is the young person describing this or is it somebody else?” — is that also we don’t know all the details. [This is always a good point to keep in mind – for example, even when a person themself posts on the site about their own situation, we still do not know all the all the details of the matter and need to bear that in mind when commenting (eg, not make an assumption that if a person’s situation sounds like yours, it’s exactly like yours).]
However, I do have concern — based on this narrative, which is all I have to go on – about this VC crossing from ascertaining competency/understanding of consequences to interfering in the process.
One example of several things that bother me in this narrative is:
It sounds like the VC was saying that “it [doesn’t] make any sense” for a person to renounce because they are 18 years old. If so, the VC’s opinion is irrelevant and out of line. That’s a value judgement — not pointing out a fact (such as “it doesn’t make sense to renounce if you’re thinking of working in the US later in your career,” which IMO would be accceptable to mention).
Likewise, if the VC thought the reason for renouncing “didn’t make any sense” because she (the VC) felt it was a stupid reason, something that she believes wouldn’t cause her to make that decision in that situation), the VC’s opinion would be irrelevant and out of line. All that matters is that the person has the capacity to make the decision – the motivation for the decision is irrelevant.
If however, the VC felt “it didn’t make any sense” because in their conversation a person was, and remained, confused about the consequences of renunciation, the VC’s opinion would be relevant.
It is reasonable for a VC to ascertain that the person really does understand the consequences – in fact, they are required to do that. One can even see that as not necessarily a bad thing, since the ramifications can affect the rest of the person’s life.
This understanding of consequences generally involves simply having the person read and sign the DS-4081 (Statement of Understanding of Consequences). ( “Did you read this?” “Yes.” Do you understand everything that’s written there?” “Yes.” “Okay, sign here.”). Since a 18 year old, although an adult, has relatively little life experience, I don’t have a problem with the VC going over the 4081 with them to make sure.
But it sounds like this VC in this scenario was going beyond “Are you aware that if you renounce . . . . ?” to at least skirting, if not crossing the line into, interference in the process (I don’t know which, I wasn’t there).
I was the victim of a clear attempt to obstruct, so I tend to be very wary of situations where a VC may be acting unprofessionally and inserting their personal feelings or agenda into the procedure.
I tend to agree with USCA on this one. Leaving aside the question of whether the official in question crossed a line into obstruction or rattled off a string of BS excuses – and that may be slightly hard to know in a second-hand retelling of one side of the story – I would say that I don’t find it at all unusual or inappropriate for a consul to spend more time examining a potential renunciant of such tender years. Particularly since parents will have been involved in the decision and almost certainly provided the funds.
There are obvious cases where it makes sense for someone to renounce at 18, such as in Switzerland where FATCA rules would make it impossible for a dual citizen to take up a financial industry apprenticeship, or even to start a proper pension when they begin working. But that can be clearly stated in the interview, since it’s not exactly tax avoidance.
Otherwise I think it’s a big decision to take at such an early stage in life, when compliance is either painless or easily avoided, and particularly in countries where there are no issues with bank access. This is not a judgement of a person’s maturity at age 18, but simply pointing out that they are potentially giving up useful opportunities if their future plans include advanced study and travel. No sane person should pay for an undergraduate degree at inflated US prices, but graduate school is another matter – there can be generous funding at excellent universities. (Yes, most of that is still available to non-citizens, but life is much easier when you can skip the visa line and have unrestricted permission to work.)
That’s gone on long enough. My own recently adult child, who is dual but fortunately not born in the US, has agreed with my recommendation to keep her US citizenship secret but not renounce until such time as her plans have crystallized, which I’d guess is probably around age 30.