March 8, 2016 UPDATE: Legal fees paid — on to Federal Court for Charter trial contesting Canadian FATCA IGA legislation.
Canadians and International Supporters:
You came through once again: $594,970 for legal costs have now been donated and our outstanding legal bill is finally paid off.
Thanks especially to those who donated even though they never had any “spare” money to give, and despite this gave over and over and over again.
This last round of fundraising also shows that our Canadian lawsuit remains dependent on the kindness of our International Friends: There would be no lawsuit without their financial help.
Know that a very generous donation (today) from a supporter in the United States made it possible to pay off the remaining legal debt. Also please appreciate that there would be no lawsuit without the help of the Isaac Brock Society which has kindly let us use its website to solicit funds.
Our next step is the Constitutional-Charter trial in Federal Court.
For this we need more Canadian Witnesses, and my next post will be devoted only to a request for Witnesses willing to go public, like our Plaintiffs Ginny and Gwen.
For the future: I want a win in Federal Court — and I want the new Liberal Government not to appeal that win.
Thank you all for your support,
Stephen Kish,
for the Directors,
Alliance for the Defence of Canadian Sovereignty
@Bubbles, one more ditty for you. 7 FAM 1200 page 15;
“d. The principle that a country shall determine who is a national of that country for purposes of their domestic law is a concept universally recognized under international law.”
Me thinks that is powerful.
Ironically, if a case could be built around this, you wouldn’t want an accidental of standing as witness, would you?
@Stephen Kish
Presumably such a person is IRS non-compliant.
I’m not sure why you’d make such an assumption.
Consider a Canadian resident in Canada who is also a dual “person” or “citizen”. They are IRS compliant however find that the costs in accounting fees of remaining compliant are quite high.
Such a person has the opportunity to open a new account in Canada which they believe will earn them an additional $2,000 in investment income compared to similar accounts. However such an account will make their already complex tax situation even more complex and cost them an additional $3,000 in accounting fees to remain compliant. As such they don’t open the account because the additional costs exceed the potential income.
Surely such a person has incurred a significant harm even though they are fully compliant?
@All
I do think in general we are going to need a strong slate of witnesses who have suffered harms as tangible as possible.
A lot of people on Brock have posted how they believe they relinquished US citizenship decades ago but because of FATCA and the IGA they have been forced into compliance programs such as OVDI which have cost them tens of thousands of dollars. Surely that is a real harm that can be demonstrated in court? In many cases the Brockers believed and still do believe they gave up US citizenship when they became Canadians–but have been coerced into accepting significant harm to hopefully avoid even greater harm.
Have there been any cases where US-tainted Canadians have been refused permission to open a bank account entirely? That also seems like a real harm. I gather that situation–complete refusal of the account as opposed to being forced to sign a W-9–is more common in Europe. But didn’t someone on here find a bank in Canada that was completely refusing accounts for Canadian residents with the ‘US taint’?
@Bubbles…
FI should also be asking…after they ask for your CLN.
1.) Are you a covered expat? If yes, have you spent 30 plus days in the USA?
BECAUSE a huge swath of US Persons are being allowed to slide under the radar intentionally, using POB is purely discriminatory!!
I hope Arvey latches on to this aspect. Because “its the law.” The IGA are defective and because they are defective they are discriminatory.
In the last round, the Harper Lawyers built a case on “its the law” that US Citizens in Canada have to do blah blah blah…….
Well guess what, only those US Persons with a US Place of Birth are being ratted out.
IF the Government of Canada is seeking to encourage tax compliance across the border why did they not negotiate an agreement that included all US Citizens along with Covered Expats who spent more than 30 days in the USA each year.
We had previously made the argument on Brock that you needed to send all Canadians information or none.
I think we can get more sophisticated stating you need to send ALL US Persons information or none and they are only sending a subset.
If a US telephone number can get you ratted out why are they not asking;
1.) Status of parents and where they were born.
2.) If a CLN holder is a covered expat.
3.) If a covered expat has spent more than 30 days in the USA and make that subject to an annual decleration.
‘Yes, not being “able” to open an account because of fear of being turned over by FATCA is a harm.
Presumably such a person is IRS non-compliant.’
In 2003, when I was probably IRS compliant, I tried to open an account in Japan and was refused. The only question I was asked was if I was a US citizen. There was no question about IRS compliance. I don’t know what predecessor of FATCA caused that question.
In 2004 I accidentally figured out that it might be possible to have my immigration stamps transferred from my US passport to my Canadian passport. An immigration official had to look it up in a manual but confirmed that it was possible. Unfortunately I didn’t know what was coming so I didn’t immediately renounce US citizenship. I used my US passport for two more visits to the US but not in any other country.
Around 2009 I was asked my citizenship, and as I was using my Canadian passport I answered Canadian. That account had no problem. Now I guess if I had answered dual it might have been a problem, but this is just a conjecture. I still don’t know what predecessor of FATCA was involved.
Still hot on the campaign trail here. We recorded the last one and will record all of them in the next two weeks. I’ve taken a lot of votes away from the local Con candidate and shamed the last MP right to his face. Stay tuned!!
@Native Canadian – Go there my friend. You are a one man company of warriors !
@George
Those are great questions for Mr Arvay.
Until now, accidentals have been pretty much off limits, with any dissent from the “save the accidental” campaign met with outright aggression at times. It’s however time to call a spade a spade as Prof Christians has done – even if it appears to be an effort to throw accidentals under the bus to prove how ridiculous the FATCA IGA is in ferreting out US persons.
Is a Canadian living in Canada less Canadian if they just happen to be born on US soil?
“Capricious” puts it mildly, Prof Christians, when someone’s awareness of even our own Canadian citizenship laws can land that person into the US citizenship trap. Take for instance someone attempting to open an account who is aware that under Canada citizenship laws he is able to pass Canadian citizenship on to his children born outside of Canada. It’s not too uninimaginable for that same person, who might have a parent who was born in the US to understand that there’s a possibility that he too could be a US citizen through descent when asked by the bank to certify he’s not a US citizen. Now if he answers honesty and says “maybe” what would happen next? He’d have to prove he’s not in fact a US citizen, a journey which will lead to him unfortunately establish himself as a US citizen should his parent been able to confer it to him!
It would seem that under the FATCA IGA, ignorance is not only an excuse, but actually condoned when it comes to accidentals born in Canada. Is that fair to the rest of us?
@Stephen Kish
Finding a ‘mixed’ couple who’s life savings are being threatened by the IRS might be good, but an account shared by a US citizen and their unrealized American child might be even gooder. At the very least it might finally determine what the child’s status is as far as both governments are concerned.
George and bubblebustin,
As you know, I absolutely agree re those US citizens born outside the US who are not identifiable as are those with a US place of birth, my son of course being one of them. The unfairness of it all has never added up for me. Although I cheer on one hand for those who are unidentifiable, what a screwed up law we find ourselves and our family members under — a complete waste and undue stress. I want for my family and others US RBT and actually getting some semblance of a normal life back.
(I am computerless still but wanted to weigh in.)
I just posted this:
Thanks for the extra effort it took to comment here – your additional insight into this is always appreciated.
As you know my son is a born in Canada accidental US citizen too. My son and I had a discussion once about whether he’d want to have US citizenship if he had the choice, neither of us at the realizing that he actually has no choice – that he’s in fact a “natural born” US citizen, good enough for Ted Cruz to one day be president. He however made it clear that he considers himself Canadian and Canadian only. I’m not going to ruin his life by telling him otherwise. Am I being irresponsible by not telling him? Will there come a day when he finds out that I knew and didn’t warn him about the danger he now finds himself because he inadvertently outed himself to the wrong person by mentioning his mother was a USC when he was born? It’s absolutely ridiculous that any of us should be finding ourselves in these predicaments, but we do, and neither government is doing anything to help us by ignoring the problems they’ve created.
My last comment was for Calgary411.
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=buy+buttonhold+camera
It may be interesting to get a buttonhole camera and film the encounters as well. Perhaps a Canadian with Canadian passport (US place of birth), and a Canadian with a Canadian passport (Canada place of birth) and see what happens.
Is the Canada place of birthed, just processed? Is the US place of birthed handed a W9 and asked further / different questions? The discrimination has to happen between the KYC intake to the ‘backroom’ discrimination separating data out for the CRA. Unless the bank sends the CRA all the data, they have to discriminate somehow.
The footage may be interesting for YouTube etc.
BB. This has been covered. Your son has a claim to US citizenship. Until or unless he exerts that claim it’s moot.
@DoD
I don’t know if that’s true. Calgary411 spent a lot of money on lawyers fees trying to establish that with no clarification on that.
Also, if it was widely recognized that accidentals born outside the US had “claim” US citizenship, how is it the Obama budget proposal sought to include them?
@Duke of Devon @ Bubblebustin
Does a person who has a claim to citizenship need to apply for it in order to receive it? Or is it bestowed upon them against their will? I guess that’s the question. In 2012 I had the same question regarding my Canadian born kids. I contacted the State Dept. Howard Kavaler (kavalerh@state.gov) got back to me with an answer. My kids do not have a claim to citizenship based on my specific circumstances. He even gave me the Section of the Immigration and Nationality Act that proves my kids are not US persons. I never thought about asking him whether citizenship could be forced upon them if they did have a claim to it.
IMHO I think the answer is NO. I think a person who has a claim to citizenship has a choice and must apply for it in order to receive it. However, i am wrong about sooooo many things that I would probably not take my own advice.
Thanks for sharing that, Marie. How’s this for a hypothetical situation. A person goes to the US consulate for documentation to prove for himself or some other entity that he isn’t a US citizen and instead gets a passport.
To the best of my understanding, if Bubblebustin registered her son’s birth at a US consulate then US citizenship is forced on her son, but if she didn’t then her son is still free. I assume Calgary411 took that unfortunate action at a time when no one knew what was coming.
“COULD SOME OF YOU GO TO YOUR BANKS TOMORROW AND ask your bank manager/customer service officer whether information on any of your accounts has been turned over by FATCA to Canada CRA.”
I asked by communicating on their web site. I didn’t demand that the answer come this week because that might just egg them on to not answer.
By the way, since I didn’t memorize one of TD’s domain names, I did a Google search for td bank. The first hit that came up looked inappropriate but interesting, so I opened it. OK, that was interesting too, so I told it to search for a location, waterloo ontario, where I used to have an account. TD Bank says they don’t have any branches there but their nearest branch is in Waterloo NY.
After that I clicked another Google result which was the correct one.
“COULD SOME OF YOU GO TO YOUR BANKS TOMORROW”
Yes (virtually) but it’s not really a Canadian bank any more is it. They should change their name.
I’m going to take the liberty of answering for Calgary as I understand she’s without a computer. No she didn’t register her son, Norman. It’s a grey area, afaik.
“No she didn’t register her son”
Wow, then how did he get stuck? To the best of my understanding, even if she had got a US passport for him (regardless of whether he understood its meaning) Calgary411 would have had to report his birth in order to get a passport. By what possible means did the citizenship get attached to him in the first place without being registered?
@ Norman Diamond
All I know is calgary411 explored every avenue possible (at considerable expense). She learned her son had automatic US citizenship (via both his parents) and since he is not capable of doing the renunciation procedure he is “entrapped” (as calgary411 puts it) in this citizenship.
I understand the efforts Calgary411 did to try to get her son out of the trap, but I wonder if maybe he isn’t really in the trap?
http://travel.state.gov/content/passports/en/abroad/events-and-records/birth.html
“Parents of a child born abroad to a U.S. citizen or citizens should apply for a CRBA and/or a U.S. passport for the child as soon as possible. Failure to promptly document a child who meets the statutory requirements for acquiring U.S. citizenship at birth may cause problems for the parents and the child when attempting to establish the child’s U.S. citizenship and eligibility for the rights and benefits of U.S. citizenship, including entry into the United States.”
Maybe one of the problems should be that the US can’t really prove that the son is a US citizen.
Here too:
http://toronto.usconsulate.gov/service/consular-report-of-birth-abroad.html
“If both parents were U.S. citizens when your child was born, he/she may have acquired U.S. citizenship at birth, if at least one parent resided in the USA prior to the child’s birth.”
May have, but if not properly registered then may not have. Maybe he didn’t even fall into the trap in the first place.