UPDATE SEPTEMBER 19, 2015: SEE ALSO DISCLAIMER AND LITIGATION UPDATES.
[This post, which began in May and having over 1000 revisions and 2000 comments, is being retired from service and updates. It lived through the success of reaching a total of $500,000 in donations from our kind, dear supporters who had little money to give, the hope and disappointment with the summary trial decision, and the certainty that we are now finally moving on to the Charter trial.]
CANADIAN CHARTER TRIAL UPDATE:
— We have instructed the Arvay team to prepare for the “Constitutional-Charter” trial. This means that our focus now, as it was in the beginning of our lawsuit, is on the Charter trial.
Unless there is a new expense in the future that we have not anticipated, the monies from your donations will be sufficient to take us through the “constitutional-charter” trial in Federal Court. However, to pay other legal bills we will need additional donations from our supporters, and a request for donations will appear on another post soon.
OUR LITIGATION HISTORY:
One year ago, on August 11, 2014, Litigator Joseph Arvay filed a FATCA IGA lawsuit in Canada Federal Court on behalf of Plaintiffs Ginny and Gwen, the Alliance for the Defence of Canadian Sovereignty (en français), and all peoples.
Because of a Government delay we initiated a “summary trial”, using a portion of the arguments, which offered the possibility of preventing private banking information from being turned over to the IRS before September 30, 2015. See Alliance’s Claims, our Alliance blog, and AUGUST 4-5 SUMMARY TRIAL FILINGS in LITIGATION UPDATES.
@Tim, @heartsick, @Marie, @All,
Tim says,
Where is / Who will be the influential US Canadian or Canadian Canadian …
who will impress upon the NDP Party Leader, Thomas Mulcair, that…
one million Canadians with some US-defined US taint, plus their Canadian spouses, their Canadian children, their Canadian business partners who risk having their private financial information sent to a foreign country (the USA) if ther Canadian person partner has a US taint…
have but ONE ISSUE that will decide their vote in the upcoming October 19th Canadian election;
that those US-deemed US persons in Canada (who are Canadians!) are waiting to hear NDP Leader Thomas Mulcair make this a front and centre NDP election issue…
so the Canadian media will give their issue full credence and visibility;
and thus ALL *US Persons* in Canada AND all Canadians will be aware of
the consequences of the open-ended intergovernmental agreement (IGA), a BLANK CHEQUE, subject to change by the “Last In Time Rule” that allows the U.S. to unilaterally change EVERY tax *treaty*…
the IGA that the Conservative government signed with the U.S. to implement extra-territorial U.S. FATCA law to override Canadian laws and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms —
in return for promise of about one million votes, the persons this Isaac Brock Society represents
to swing the vital-for-ALL-Canadians October 19th federal election
??????????????
FYI this is a discussion on had on another forum many years ago(2012) with an NDP supporter named “Determinant” who is pro FATCA and pro CBT.
http://worthwhile.typepad.com/worthwhile_canadian_initi/2012/04/breakfast.html
Tim says:
I take issue with comment about worldwide taxation for Canadian citizenship. In fact the NDP has already come out vehemently against the “concept.” There are HUGE tax problems right with US Citizens living in Canada many of which do not know they are US citizens due to something called FATCA and FBAR. In fact I have been posting regularly at another web called the Isaac Brock Society that is devoted to this issue. I am actually going to have some of the regulars over their come over here now that the subject has been brought up. As I linked to below the NDP actually has an official policy determined by caucus of opposing the US policy of trying to tax US Citizens living in Canada with no residential ties to the US on their Canadian source income. I also believe the entire BC NDP federal caucus sent a letter to Flaherty opposing the US’ effort to try to impose tax and reporting requirements on its citizens living in Canada. As someone who generally doesn’t support the NDP there efforts on this issue have caused me to look at them a whole new light.
http://denisesavoie.ca/ndp-position-on-the-us-foreign-account-tax-compliance-act-fatca
http://jeancrowder.ndp.ca/post/jeans-column-on-the-u-s-foreign-account-tax-compliance-act-fatca-for-the-cowichan-valley-citizen-september-2011
All of Canada tax treaties with countries other than the US(about of 80 or so based on the OECD model)prohibit taxation of non resident citizens. Dual US Canadian citizens are the ones being treated unfairly by past Canadian government that refused to standup to the US in past treaty negotiations. Sorry for going on about this but I don’t think there has ever in my life been an issue I am so hot under the collar about it.”
Determinant says:
“The US gives tax credits for taxes paid in Canada under the Canada/US tax treaty.
http://www.uscanadataxexperts.com/dbltax.php
As demonstrated above, even though I am a card-carrying member of the NDP I don’t always agree with party positions.
In most cases dual citizens would owe little to no tax.
The US has imposed income taxes based on citizenship since the 1920’s. This is not new, I cannot see that any representation by Canada would persuade the US Congress to change a fundamental assumption of the US income tax system. But they did give Canadians credit for taxes paid here under the Tax Treaty.
While US tax law is a pain sometimes, dual citizens always had US income tax liability. Recent acts just made that far more clear to many people. Americans living in Canada, unlike most other countries, are by an large low to middle income.”
Tim says:
Yes but the filing and preparation costs can be into the thousands for someone with only middle income. The issues is isn’t tax per say(Canadian rates are higher than the US so there is almost never any tax due) is the filing and preparation requirements and the PENALTIES for not doing it correctly. For a US Citizen living in Canada ALL Canadian financial accounts are considered “offshore” even though the person lives in Canada thus the account balances all have to reported on two separate forms once to the IRS and once to the US Treasury(the penalty for a willful error is 50% of the balance each with statute of limitations going back six years). The other issue is the US IRS is trying to compel Canadian financial institutions to report information on dual citizens clients in violation of the Bank Act, PIPEDA, the Canadian Human Rights Act and god knows what else.
The other issue is the US retroactively restored citizenship to many American who came over to Canada in 1970s and “reliquinshed” their US citizenship under the laws of the day when they became Canadian citizens. Elizabeth May I believe is in this group. Additionally not surprising given that many Americans who came to Canada in the 1970s did so for “political” reasons because of the Vietnam War once becoming Canadian they often became life long NDP supporters(which could possibly be skewing the party’s position on the issue).”
Aussie @Alby sets template for political action:
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/fatca-and-australia/comment-page-7/#comment-6426668
Has this been done in Canada?
Calgary411 –
One million Canadians with some US-defined US taint … have but ONE ISSUE that will decide their vote in the upcoming October 19th Canadian election
If you really believe that, I think family and friends need to take up a collection to fund an experienced deprogrammer to drag you out of the cult of Brock and scrub your brain.
Sympathies, and hopes for recovery.
I wonder if I turned Republican, maybe I will turn cons (never!). Their facebook “republicans overseas” seems to be taken over by a very liberal Republican. “Republicans Overseas: Steven Jacobi Thank you for your and many overseas life-long Democrats’ support of our FATCA lawsuit. The lawsuit serves two purposes: 1) defending your constitutional rights and 2) providing immediate relief for expats’ FATCA pains. As constitutionalists, Jim Bopp and I have been defending constitutional principles for many years regardless which party is in the White House. To defend the enumerated powers concept under the Tenth Amendment, we sponsored and passed a RNC resolution to oppose President Bush’s first financial bailouts. We did not believe President Bush had the constitutional authority to nationalize industries.”
Calgary: I proudly join you in being a one-issue voter in this election!
Have you received yours?
http://tax-expatriation.com/2015/08/28/letter-from-your-non-u-s-bank-regarding-chapter-4-of-subtitle-a-of-the-u-s-internal-revenue-code-aka-fatca/
Thanks, MuzzledNoMore.
As we are at the end of August without any further word from the UN on our Human Rights Complaint;
as we don’t see any Canadian Party Leader talk about the effects for so many Canadians of the IGA that legislated US FATCA law in Canada (the Liberal candidate in my riding, who I have talked to on several occasions, having told me at my door that the Liberals will not have a Policy on FATCA, so a vote for him is out; the Conservative in my riding, although probably the favourite here, will never have my vote; that leaves the NDP candidate who I have contacted to start a discussion but have not heard back);
I am this one-issue voter.
The tragedy is that our issue has never been legitimized in the media and so many *US Persons in Canada* do not yet know how they are affected. Until that happens by a brave Party Leader with any feeling for EVERY CANADIAN, making this an election issue, the strong numbers of so-affected Canadians will remain in the dark as will other Canadians who won’t know the BLANK CHEQUE written on Canada’s sovereignty and economy. They must believe *CONGRESS HAS SPOKEN* and Congress is the only one who determines our fate. There can be no mass vote unless our issue is given credence and all such individual Canadians and families know.
I did think that my vote would be ABC *Anything But Conservative* (a poor way to have to vote). But, if no Party Leader will stand up and legitimatize the FATCA issue in Canada, my vote may be *None of the Above*. If you, dear Opposition Party Leader, NDP or otherwise, do not have the time or inclination to weigh in on this, then I DO NOT BELIEVE ANYTHING YOU MAY PROMISE. I see no reason to give you my vote — you disgust me!
The most important comment for me on Brock this morning is that from a member of an Australian family in much the situation as mine: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/fatca-and-australia/comment-page-9/#comment-6433041.
Just substitute CANADA or ANY OTHER COUNTRY for AUSTRALIA in the above heartfelt comment.
Am I / are we to believe that every country in the world cares not about such families affected by FATCA — not to mention all the rest?
What do you think of this?
https://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/canada-politics/canadians-still-affinity-u-president-barack-obama-180406144.html
Graves suggests that Obama is the anti-Stephen Harper at least when it comes to personality. He claims that there’s a population of Canadians who yearn for that style of leadership.
“What is driving it is a bit of leader-envy for a cool, funny and progressive leader — against the decidedly uncool, stiff and cranky leader we have,” he said.
“I think most Canadians find themselves increasingly at odds with a leader who clearly espouses right-wing values which are increasingly in a state of tension with a clear public movement away from small-c conservative values.
“In short , I think Barrack Obama has become something of a poster child for lost liberal aspirations in Canada — despite his problems with Americans.”
@Calgary411
“Am I / are we to believe that every country in the world cares not about such families affected by FATCA..”
Basically anyone with a US taint living outside of the US borders is rendered stateless. The US is trying to financially destroy them and their home nations will not protect them. Outside of US borders anti-American sentiment is not unusual. We are just one more of those ugly Americans, no one cares. I’d wager their underlying feelings are; You need to just go back to the US, look at all of the trouble and expense you are causing our banks. Yankee go Home, you are nothing but trouble.
The comment posted from the Australian family is basically all of our stories.
“If you, dear Opposition Party Leader, NDP or otherwise, do not have the time or inclination to weigh in on this, then…. I see no reason to give you my vote — you disgust me!”
DITTO for me x 100!
@ all European brockers
Is there any way to get something started in Europe by contacting our politicians like they are doing in Australia? This has to be a global battle…not just in Canada. We have to attack the beast from all angles. Could we write letters to Merkel, Cameron, Renzi, Michel, Rasmussen, Tsipras, Hasler, Solberg……..etc??
@USXCanada to @Calgary411:
“to drag you out of the cult of Brock and scrub your brain.”
REALLY?? How DARE you!!
One of the reasons Brock was created was for like minds and information and frankly, a life saving commiseration online that has saved more than one member’s sanity.
To be betrayed by one’s own government is a devastating experience.
An experience that naturally leans towards trying to make sure that government does not form government again.
Considering all we know about how the sausage of the IGA was made makes it all the more important to oppose such things in governing and to make it clear the electorate do not agree with such tactics.
It is anyone’s right to have the political views they want and not to be chastised and denigrated for it!!
Many here agree with @Calgary411’s statements and even if we did not we would not attack personally ,questioning one’s sanity and insinuating ‘indoctrination into a cult from which ‘one needs one’s brain scrubbed’!
Shame on you!
It is bad enough that many here have had to endure the most egregious betrayal of a government in the history of Canada taking it’s toll emotionally and financially not to mention socially.
The Brock Society, once formed, gained strength from one another and moved forcefully to actually DO something about the situation.
Many here have sought and found kindred spirit that we appreciate and cherish far beyond what The Isaac Brock Society has provided in the run up to and in the heat of the lawsuit, great information and exchange of fellowships quite beyond the issues.
Our members also were prepared to put our money where our mouths are in funding the lawsuit as has been done,along with supporters from around the world.
The atmosphere, until most recently , has been one of the most remarkable ever. Good will and support is the order of the day, along with information sharing and gathering, not to mention emotional support that is more important than words can convey.
When posting it is important to note that words in posts can come across the screen to hurt emotionally the target of those words.
It would be wise and thoughtful to take care when posting the impact of one’s words on another.
@Furious
Thank you for defending Calgary 411. I too found the expression “to drag you out of the cult of Brock and scrub your brain.” obnoxious and uncalled for.
Now that Brock is back online, FuriousAC and nervousinvestor — I appreciate your support.
I’m OK — knowing the source helped the sting.
@Calgary411:
Well, it is good to know you shook off the assault.
However, it was completely unnecessary and uncalled for.
It is wise to always ‘consider the source’..yet the sting of that rebuke was felt I am sure
and it needn’t have been said at all.
We cherish you and empathize with your story and fight for the rights of yourself and your family.
As we all do fight this for ourselves and family.
Oh Oh. Watch out.
usxcanada may tell those in the “cult of Brock” to find another sandbox to play in. That’s what he (or she?) said to some of us in 2012. So Outraged Canadian and I did just that.
These comments top many of usxcanada’s earlier words by miles. I have concluded usxcanada likes to stir things up and denigrate everyone in the “”cult of Brock.”
I think many of us agree Calgary411 gives far more to this battle each and every day than usxcanada has done over years.
Cult on Calgary!
Thanks once again, FuriousAC. I absolutely know all you say and it keeps me sane and sort of on track.
The peer support of US-defined US Persons Abroad at this forum is to many as important as, and at times more important than, the very real expertise we also find here.
And, thanks, Blaze. I fully intend to Cult On with the rest of us here — and at Sandbox!
Cult or not, the Isaac Brock Society truly saved my sanity, replaced hitting the bottle as a remedy for six months of insomnia, and perhaps even saved my marriage, as the facts, arguments and sense of hope amidst the despair have enabled me to hoist the hubster out of his ostrich hole. For me IBS has provided the opposite of brain-washing. I’d call it brain-straightening. If this be a cult, call me a willing, eyes-wide-open member.
@Tim. Regarding the Yahoo article, it says that some Canadians think Barak Obama is “cool, funny, and progressive.” These must be the low information Canadians who know nothing of what is happening in the US, except what they see on The Daily Show (Obama yukking it up with Jon Stewart). FATCA is about as cool and funny as a root canal. As for “progressive,” what does that mean? It seems to mean whatever people think it means. To me it means “slightly to the left of Karl Marx.”
Looky!
The tragedy is that our issue has never been legitimized in the media and so many *US Persons in Canada* do not yet know how they are affected. — Calgary411
Consequently, Calgary411 in fact DOES NOT BELIEVE that Canadian politicians face one million obsessed single-issue voters. (By the way, neither do they.)
So no deprogramming required.
The most important word in my first posting was … IF.
Does such does-not-compute bluster establish any kind of credibility?
Once again, enduring the slings and arrows of impotent ad hominem. Logic is too hard?
@LakeSuperiorGuy When I tell Canadians about FATCA, they often immediately jump to the conclusion that it was all Bush’s doing. They are shocked and do not want to believe it came from Obama and the Dems.
Some think Canada should also have CBT. Others think it would be OK for all Canadians to have FATCA type information submitted to CRA from all Canadians. Shockingly, the view about info to CRA was from a friend who is a retired Regional Manager of a provincial Human Rights Commission.
Calgary my family is a one issue one as well. We admire your courage to come forward in the face of adversity. We know your son is safe in your care and will be safe later.
USX is an agent provocateur and is best ignored. Another word for him is asshole.
Thanks, Duke — glad you and your family, as many here, are one-issue voters for the next Canadian election. I appreciate your supporting words and agree with why you say to ignore — usxcanada has been around Brock for a long time, 788 comments worth.
Trudeau at Islamic Convention:
A small ray of hope on CTV news this morning. Justin Trudeau says that LIBERALS STAND AGAINST TWO TIERED CITIZENSHIP. No it doesn’t specifically mention FATCA, but I think it’s a step in the right direction.
@ calgary411
I’ll do a Bubblebustinism. All silver linings have a dark cloud. They need it to accentuate their brilliance. Your intellect, empathy and steadfastness give Brock a wonderful hopeful glow. Thank you. BTW, I’m a one issue voter too.