UPDATE SEPTEMBER 19, 2015: SEE ALSO DISCLAIMER AND LITIGATION UPDATES.
[This post, which began in May and having over 1000 revisions and 2000 comments, is being retired from service and updates. It lived through the success of reaching a total of $500,000 in donations from our kind, dear supporters who had little money to give, the hope and disappointment with the summary trial decision, and the certainty that we are now finally moving on to the Charter trial.]
CANADIAN CHARTER TRIAL UPDATE:
— We have instructed the Arvay team to prepare for the “Constitutional-Charter” trial. This means that our focus now, as it was in the beginning of our lawsuit, is on the Charter trial.
Unless there is a new expense in the future that we have not anticipated, the monies from your donations will be sufficient to take us through the “constitutional-charter” trial in Federal Court. However, to pay other legal bills we will need additional donations from our supporters, and a request for donations will appear on another post soon.
OUR LITIGATION HISTORY:
One year ago, on August 11, 2014, Litigator Joseph Arvay filed a FATCA IGA lawsuit in Canada Federal Court on behalf of Plaintiffs Ginny and Gwen, the Alliance for the Defence of Canadian Sovereignty (en français), and all peoples.
Because of a Government delay we initiated a “summary trial”, using a portion of the arguments, which offered the possibility of preventing private banking information from being turned over to the IRS before September 30, 2015. See Alliance’s Claims, our Alliance blog, and AUGUST 4-5 SUMMARY TRIAL FILINGS in LITIGATION UPDATES.
Speaking the to some MPs in Australia and the Australian treasury I get the feeling that trading with the US was far more important than the treatment of Australian Citizens who are US persons. When I explain how we feel about the segregation based on citizenship, invasion into our privacy, possibility of huge fines the government officials simply say but you are a US citizen. When I explain that I left the US at age 1 they say but you are a US citizen.
I feel helpless and they seem to have no compassion.
Any comments
Grab you BP meds.
Speaking of FATCA dying a natural death, the IRS isn’t sure FATCA will work, needs to back it up with already existing methods of finding tax cheats.
http://profwilliambyrnes.com/2015/08/24/irs-isnt-confident-fatca-will-work/
@Bubblebustin:
” Grab your BP meds.”
Ain’t it the truth! – These miscreants never let up! The verbosity piled high!!
Yet through the fog the INTENT is quite clear indeed!!
@ AU says
It is no different in Canada. No compassion, just robots following the party line.
@AU
Hi AU
Welcome to Brock. Sorry we connect under these circumstances but you are among folks who understand where you’re at.
It is indeed disturbing to come to the realization that one’s government couldn’t care less about your issues and will not do anything to help alleviate them. This really isn’t unique to US citizenship issues. Government people care about power and money. That’s it. That’s why we don’t owe them and their phony patriotism one iota of attention. When they say “But you’re an American citizen, I doubt seriously they view this as a matter of fact (i.e., “the law is what it is and you are American, buck up buddy.”) I’ve never been to Australia but have always imagined that you guys are somewhat similar to us (Canadians). And I’d be willing to bet big bucks that there’s a strong anti-american sentiment there (which you will feel is unfair because from all normal ways of looking at it, you are an Australian, right?). But they know now that you have the US taint. So you move into a new pool of prejudice where there is nothing you can do to convince them otherwise. It is very unpleasant. At least you probably do not have an American accent!
It is not however, hopeless. Once you get over the numbing shock of it, you will figure out where you want to be and then you can learn how to get there. And people here will help you find the information you need. It won’t be a perfect solution and you likely will not be happy about it but there will be a way for you to deal with this.
Can you tell us something about your situation? Are you wanting to keep your US citizenship? Did you happen to be born a dual citizen? Do you have any other friends or acquaintances nearby who are in the same situation? It’s hard to believe right now but you will be alright and it will work out.
Welcome, Au.
Your case is the same as the two Canadian plaintiffs, Gwen and Ginny. You can review http://www.adcs-adsc.ca/ for information, including the latest updates regarding the federal court summary trial that took place on August 4 and 5, 2015. That was the start of a long process in this country to get to the Supreme Court of Canada — we, as you, felt helpless and our government, too, had no compassion. We have donors from all over the world as those persons know that whatever happens with the Canadian litigation may be a model for the same process in other countries. I hope you will do some research at the adcs-adsc site and ask you to join us in the fight for all US-deemed US citizens / *US Persons* around the world.
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/fatca-and-australia/ will be another post at IsaacBrockSociety.ca that will introduce you to other commenters and FATCA information regarding your country.
Among the most important you’ll find here is support — people who understand what you are saying and what you are feeling. That is priceless. Again, welcome.
@AU Just to let you know, I just had a conversation with my local Conservative MP here in St Thomas Ontario. She was the only candidate in the current federal election here who would not meet with me or give me anything in writing. The other two candidates BOTH sat with me in person and gave me everything in writing. The conservative MP candidate explained in a phone conversation that all people living in Canada who came here from other countries MUST obey their home country laws while being either resident in Canada or Citizens of Canada. It appears that she confirms that we have two classes of “Canadians” in Canada. I guess it might be looking the same in Australia. I made up a T-shirt that says in plain English that “My prime minister made me a second class Canadian ask me how” as well as I fully support our lawsuit and every other second class citizen of other countries including you.
Hopefully, when the NDP leader Tom Mulclair comes to London tomorrow, I will be there with my new shirt and will send a message to Murray Rankin via Tom Mulclair. The message will be…… Thank You!
@NativeCanadian:
VERY interested in Mr. Mulcair’s response!
@Tricia Moon, calgary411, NativeCanadian, all
Born in US moved to AUS aged 1y/o. I am an average Aussie on an average income who would owe NO US taxes so I do not understand why the US is interested in someone like me. My American Citizenship until FATCA was introduced was NEVER an issue. Being told finger waging in my face that it is my obligation to “comply with American Tax Law” is an insult. Is that all my (our) US Citizenship means to America – taxes? They have numerous other laws too but they are not enforced upon us, are they?
…and a thanks to Nathan Cullen too if you can fit it in, Native Canadian.
I hope you ARE able to shake the hand of the opposing the Cons – NDP Party Leader, Thomas Mulcair. Your new shirt should be a great conversation piece at tomorrow’s gathering. Another big thanks to you if you are able to make tomorrow’s event.
Wow! Native Canadian!! You are ON FIRE!
Very exciting, cannot wait to hear how it goes.
(gee SK, it’s been a longtime since we hit the streets….c’mon, you know you can’t say “no….”)
Have you noticed that the US is all about war. War on drugs, war on tax cheats, war on expats however they never seem to win any of these wars. All smoke and mirrors! I could go on about more wars but I think you get the picture. It truly is laughable!
@Ann
Have you also noticed all their wars are boondoggles? The War on Offshore Tax Evasion, FATCA, is no different.
@AU A lot of us are in the same position as you are. I am a born in Canada Canadian and now, with the thanks of our current Conservative government, my wife is no longer a Canadian like me. In fact, she has dragged me down to “second class Canadian” status as she herself is considered. The Canadian government wants to send MY personal bank data to the USA. A move in which I will SUE this government as they never warned me before I married a second class Canadian. Silly me, I thought my wife to be was a First class Canadian like I was before getting married. My country treated us like garbage. If it was not for this website and the incredible people here, I, and my wife would have gone completely crazy We have been through every possible emotion known to humans. Now, I want nothing more to fight this government and MAKE them obey Canadian laws for ALL citizens. Harper can go to hell as far as I am concerned and this fight will intensify. You are among people just like you and we all are here to support you and give you real answers to your questions….
@AU
We have similar circumstance, born in US, parents migrated to AUS in 1972, I was 5, my wife also born in US was 1 year old when her parents migrated. We obtained AUS citizenship 2012, (wish it was prior 2004). There are alot of AUS dual citizens / perm residence living here that I know of.
We operate a business and employ and provide jobs to 80 people including Australians and 457 Visa immigrants, we don’t discriminate and we contribute to the Australian economy. This business was started by my US / AUS dual citizen parents. How dare the AUS politician treat us in this respect.
Did you know to unravel yourself from this US FATCA mess, despite relinquishing US citizenship you need a Cert Loss of Nationality from the US consulate to please the bank. The CLN will trigger an exit tax and confiscate business and private capital assets built in Australia.
I would love to challenge that MP that wagged their finger at your face that it is your obligation to “comply with American Tax Law”. That is an extreme uneducated comment by a typical mealy mouthed bureaucrat. Don’t forget MPs work for us, we don’t work for them. Our US taint also pays taxes and employs the bureaucrats in Canberra.
” Australian politicians have no idea what FATCA is and need educating that the Government of Australia has agreed to help the United States impose U.S. taxes on “certain Australian citizens and residents”. .
Our government needs to protect its “certain law abiding Australian citizens and residence” from U.S. extra-territorial laws.
AU: if you don’t feel you need your US passport, renouncing is the answer. Bite the bullet and get the CLN, if you need it for banking. I suppose that is the case. Also read Deckard’s and my comments higher up. I personally believe there is a very strong case for doing nothing in your case, except maybe renounce and get a Certificate of Loss of Nationality. If you a small fish, have never filed, owe no tax, I see no reason to muck things up and get into the system. It will bring only pain and cost. Get the CLN and forget about the rest. Also, travel with Aus passport and CLN if you go to the US. The IRS will NEVER have the resources to even send you a letter. And as someone said a few comments ago, that letter can be handy at the bottom of a bird cage. Alternatives include lighting a fire or recycling.
Seriously, understand that any professional advice you get cannot tell you this. Think much before you get them involved. They cannot tell you to ignore the mess, even if that is the most rational thing to do. Look up in previous posts the story of Mike Pinetree, the Brazilian doctor whose life was messed up because he tried to comply (and he didn’t even have a US birthplace).
When I get professional tax advice, I file myself, I decide what happens and what I tell the IRS. The form they do for me is a draft that I send, modify, or sit on. Keep the final decision in your hands.
Best!
Which will come first: A decision in the FATCA legal challenge or the first exchange info? Mary Teresa Bitti and Jules Melnitzer, Financial Post, Canada.
Pacifica,
This is what I justed posted above:
— See also yesterday/today’s two back-to-back articles here and here (online and morning print edition with different title) in Canada’s National/Financial Post mentioning our lawsuit.
In one article Roy Berg says: “This is big stuff and it’s right around the corner”
…but EmNotEx opines in a comment: “Without that [economic sanction nuclear] weapon, FATCA would have been tagged as the rubbish it is and laid to rest on the doorstep of the U.S. Treasury Dept.”
Good articles. Wish people would stop drawing parallels between CRS and FATCA, and point out the differences as FromPatriot to ExPatriate comments in the second article.
“1. FATCA is designed to force the transmission of information.
2. CRS is designed to force the transmission of information.
Therefore, FATCA and the CRS are the same.
Let’s test that logic:
1. Cats have fur.
2. Dogs have fur.
Therefore, cats are dogs.”
@Native Canadian: If you are able to speak to him, ask why he has not responded to a letter sent to him five months ago from ADCS Tell him we do not want to hear what the Conservatives did and did not do. We want to hear what an NDP government would do.
Murray Rankin’s Assistant has been promising a reply for about three months. Only silence now.
http://maplesandbox.ca/2015/fatca-letter-to-leaders-and-mps/
@All: Julius Melnitzer, one of the authors of that Financial Post article, is a convicted criminal and a disbarred lawyer who defrauded five Canadian banks of $67 million.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Melnitzer
Melnitzer written several articles about FATCA for the Financial Post. He was a prominent lawyer in London Ontario. His name is well remembered by almost anyone over the age of 50 here, more for his crimes than for his previous legal work.
It always boggles my mind when I see Melnitzer writing about FATCA. Financial Post has only accepted one article that I submitted to them. It seems they prefer convicted criminals to write for them.
I just had a call from Federal Court. Justice Martineau has approved the release of the CD to me, but for personal use only. He has not approved it for posting on line.
@Native Canadian: You and others in the London area can come to my condo to listen to it here.
That’s awesome Lynne!
@Blaze:
I am hoping that means that you can report what you hear on the CD ?
@Marie:
You posted:
“Good articles. Wish people would stop drawing parallels between CRS and FATCA, and point out the differences as FromPatriot to ExPatriate comments in the second article.
“1. FATCA is designed to force the transmission of information.
2. CRS is designed to force the transmission of information.
Therefore, FATCA and the CRS are the same.
Let’s test that logic:
1. Cats have fur.
2. Dogs have fur.
Therefore, cats are dogs.”
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Yes, Marie. I saw those comments and others regarding the notion that FATCA and the OECD CRS are different.
When that question arises it is always worthwhile to read their own words about their intentions. And their intentions are clear, unequivocal and dangerous.
They say quite outright that they model their CRS on FATCA and were encouraged with the ‘success’ of FATCA to move on to the GLOBAL standard.
While FATCA uses a citizenship base, supposedly, for their confiscation though anyone born in Canada , living and earning in Canada and unfortunate enough to be married to a so called “US Person” , associated with a “US Person in any way personally or in business, (OR happened to stay in the US longer than the moving goal posts allow, among other confusing and entrapping indicia ) is considered ‘reportable’ . There is no criteria that even suggests ‘probable cause’ for such an invasion of privacy.
The OECD however intend that all people, companies and financial entities on this planet have their private information ( ALL OF IT) gathered and submitted to the OECD through the CRS.
From there, again , in their own words, these over 60 countries mentioned, and anyone else the OECD deems , is free to rifle through this personal, private information for their ‘sharing’ and whatever uses they so desire.
http://www.oecd.org/ctp/exchange-of-tax-information/automatic-exchange-financial-account-information-common-reporting-standard.pdf
In their own words:
“The scope of financial information reported: A comprehensive reporting regime covers
different types of investment income including interest, dividends and similar types of income,
and also address situations where a taxpayer seeks to hide capital that itself represents income or
assets on which tax has been evaded (e.g. by requiring information on account balances).
• The scope of accountholders subject to reporting: A comprehensive reporting regime requires
reporting not only with respect to individuals, but should also limit the opportunities for
taxpayers to circumvent reporting by using interposed legal entities or arrangements.
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FATCA is the frying pan. OECD’s CRS is the Fire!
http://www.repealfatca.com/index.asp?idmenu=4&idsubmenu=157&title=statement-in-support-of-fatca-repeal-andagainst-unauthorized-international-agreements
From the Statement:
“The Obama Administration supports OECD’s GATCA initiative and there is considerable overlap between FATCA and GATCA, the OECD considers unauthorized FATCA intergovernmental agreements a “catalyst” for its AEOI model, so that as early as 2015 American domestic financial institutions may have to start reporting account data to foreign governments pursuant to per OECD’s “AEOI: Status of Commitments” document as well as under “reciprocal exchange” with governments that have signed unauthorized FATCA intergovernmental agreements;”
The implementation of GATCA, whether under the FATCA intergovernmental agreements or OECD’s AEOI, would trample on the constitutional rights and privacy of 320 million Americans, and impose crushing compliance costs on U.S. domestic financial institutions, which would be passed on to American consumers and taxpayers;
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And the Constitutional rights and privacy of anyone on this planet!