UPDATE SEPTEMBER 19, 2015: SEE ALSO DISCLAIMER AND LITIGATION UPDATES.
[This post, which began in May and having over 1000 revisions and 2000 comments, is being retired from service and updates. It lived through the success of reaching a total of $500,000 in donations from our kind, dear supporters who had little money to give, the hope and disappointment with the summary trial decision, and the certainty that we are now finally moving on to the Charter trial.]
CANADIAN CHARTER TRIAL UPDATE:
— We have instructed the Arvay team to prepare for the “Constitutional-Charter” trial. This means that our focus now, as it was in the beginning of our lawsuit, is on the Charter trial.
Unless there is a new expense in the future that we have not anticipated, the monies from your donations will be sufficient to take us through the “constitutional-charter” trial in Federal Court. However, to pay other legal bills we will need additional donations from our supporters, and a request for donations will appear on another post soon.
OUR LITIGATION HISTORY:
One year ago, on August 11, 2014, Litigator Joseph Arvay filed a FATCA IGA lawsuit in Canada Federal Court on behalf of Plaintiffs Ginny and Gwen, the Alliance for the Defence of Canadian Sovereignty (en français), and all peoples.
Because of a Government delay we initiated a “summary trial”, using a portion of the arguments, which offered the possibility of preventing private banking information from being turned over to the IRS before September 30, 2015. See Alliance’s Claims, our Alliance blog, and AUGUST 4-5 SUMMARY TRIAL FILINGS in LITIGATION UPDATES.
@CrystalLondon My favourite quote is from the judge.
I think that is three fabulous quotes, so is that worth $150?
Actually, I think that quote is pure gold!
Might not hurt to educate these people about our lawsuit……https://citizenactionmonitor.wordpress.com/2015/01/02/stephen-harper-is-the-most-vindictive-politician-ive-ever-met-someone-who-i-think-is-ruthless-to-the-bottom/
Yes, Blaze, I think the technical term for how the Arvay team and Justice Martineau responded to the defence’s argument was to “open a can of whoop-ass”.
Blaze/bb – Is there a transcript of the trial or are these things that John Richardson wrote? To tell you the truth I didn’t listen very much I was too busy sleeping or reading mags.
@BB How in the world did the lawyer respond to that?
That would be another intriguing quote!
@kermitzi. I was told it could take weeks for a transcript and could cost thousands of dollars to buy. I understand those transcripts are not posted online.
However, someone (I think it was LM) said we can purchase a CD about 10 days after the hearing. I will definitely be doing that.
Can LM or someone else advise how to get the CD? Can it be ordered now to be sent as soon as it is available?
OMG — does my heart good. Only from bubblebustin (or EmBee) — the Arvay team and Justice Martineau ‘opened a can of whoop-ass’ for the defendant lawyers!
A technical term indeed that seems to describe the process and make it vivid in my mind, not being there in person.
How did you, kermitizi, sleep through it? Kermitizi — did you read John Richardson’s summaries for day 1 and day 2 or are you asking what about them in the post below?
Blaze, I think that was a description of the process of the Arvay team and Justice Martineau rather than something anyone said.
LM advised us about the possibility of a CD recording of the trial back in July. If memory serves, a CD would be available for a cost of $15 as per the court clerk.
@Ginny Hillis I would like to know more about that BINGO game, maybe a full tally of words/phrases. I got the impression that it was not something that you were doing formally but just noting a few of the expected words/phrases from the Crown.
A bit of humour is well appreciated here as the matter is quite serious and best not to focus too seriously on it as that outlook may get too depressing. Fully appropriate. Thanks for all the updates.
Perhaps there may be a “best of” in regards to quotes from the proceedings – both the serious ones and humorous ones.
@Blaze
Sorry you took me seriously. I have to remember to add 🙂 after those kinds of comments.
There’s been an update to the Metronews article with the addition of:
“The judge said this week he will render his decision on Sept. 13.”
http://metronews.ca/news/vancouver/1445874/two-women-challenge-law-allowing-ottawa-to-give-info-to-u-s-tax-collectors/
@Calgary I apologize if I misunderstood what Stephen e-mailed to me. Perhaps he can clarify if it was a quote or a summary interpretation of what was said..
Calgary411 — the defense lawyer put me to sleep. With his repetition of what he had written down, lack of interaction with the judge’s questions, and also kind of soft spoken. Arvey really captured my attention. To be a good lawyer you have to be a good speaker and be able to think on your feet and not recite things. The whole second day was kind of a waste of time as that defense lawyer spoke for all but one hour.
Thanks for the description of the defense lawyer — no wonder the judge admonished him and asked if he’d rather not have questions asked of him! Glad you were able to see, hear and appreciate Mr. Arvay in action, kermitzi.
Maybe we’re talking about two different things — I was referring to bubblebustin’s description. Sorry!
What Stephen quoted is what the judge actually did say — and you should get gold for that!
https://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2015/05/03/99929-needed-in-94-more-days-to-make-the-100000-august-4-2015-payment-for-canadian-fatca-iga-lawsuit-il-nous-reste-99929-a-ramasser-pour-notre-poursuite-judiciaire/comment-page-15/#comment-6131343
We now need to find the details for ordering.
http://cas-ncr-nter03.cas-satj.gc.ca/portal/page/portal/fc_cf_en/FAQ#8
Are Federal Court proceedings recorded?
…obviously, more work needs to be done on this to find out and communicate so we can order our cd’s…
I missed day 1 and most of Mr. Arvay. On day 2, the best exchange was between Mr. Gruber and Mr. Justice Martineau.
Gruber referred to the relationship of the IGA to the Tax Treaty as a ‘Henry VIII problem” The judge, being from the Napoleonic code background in Quebec instead of the common law background was unaware of the reference. Here it is
(this is from http://www.theguardian.com/law/2010/jul/15/law-kenneth-clarke-henry-viii)
It was a pleasure to hear someone as thoroughly conversant in both official languages with a delightful accent to many terms.
I thought the judge was the smartest person in the room (remember I didn’t hear Mr. Arvay). Too bad the sound system was inadequate for my tired old ears. I wouldn’t read anything sinister into a conversation between the Gov’t lawyers and Roy Berg. Berg’s 2 sidekicks were pleasant enough. Like Kermie, I had trouble staying alert. It was nice to meet my IBS friends.
Between the news from Vancouver, and this from the Republicans Overseas Action FATCA lawsuit (https://www.facebook.com/republicansoverseas/posts/411468165703651), I’m not sure my heart can take the sudden switch from despair/anger to simmering hope. At least for the past two nights I’ve switched my bedtime drink from lemon vodka to herbal tea.
Likewise, Duke. Do you want to communicate offline? As you know, we have someone in common, namely one Liberal nominee. If yes, please let mods know.
@Ginny
No need to apologize. You’ve got lots of good old fashioned “chutzpah” and as a former Windsorite I’m proud of you ( and I do miss Tunnel BBQ which, I hear, is no more).
Blaze and all
I went from the amazing two days of our day in court to Victoria tot visit with family and won’t add to the wonderful court quotes already posted here. However, I did go down to the registry office and picked up a for m that they require to be filled out to get a CD of the hearing. This form was given to MuzzledNoMore who said she would follow up with a couple questions about how to order this CD.. I was told back I early July that the cost was $15 but don’t know how
Long before it is available. Muzzled traveled home this afternoon but I am sure she will post something soon about this as she took the form and phone number and list of a couple questions
Amazing tow days and glad that the judge. Rejected the postponement- this was the first glimmer that we got a judge with good sense! He definitely “got it”. Let’s hope he can complete his judgement by Sept 13.
The judge DID NOT say he would have a judgement by Sept13. Rather he said he would try very hard to have a judgement by that. Date, which will be very fast for this kind of rendered judgement. No one should pressure this man who is trying to do a difficult job in uncharted legal territory.
And good news on the Bopp side as well! Govt did not get what they wanted. Preliminary INJUNCTION hearing in Dayton on Sept. 4th. Maybe time for me to go “home.” Would like to see that happen! Injunction, injunction….should become every expat’s mantra
Great news from Vancouver court – I am thrilled!
To address a specific issue brought up …
RE: CRA COLLECTION OF FBAR PENALITIES
On August 23, 2011,, Don Cayo at the Vancouver Sun had a scoop – a direct communication from CRA regarding collection of US FBAR penalaties in Canada.
Here are the details from his August 2011 article.
This was also posted on Phil Hodgens blog on August 23, 2100
http://hodgen.com/2011-ovdi-rrsp-rumor/#comment-649
Vancouver Sun story on Canadian Finance Department and CRA declining to collect US offshore bank penalties.
Don Cayo is likely first reporter to query the practicality of extra-jurisdictional US revenue collections on dual citizens in Canada. His digging prompted a official statement from CRA & Finance Department to the effect that will not enforce US “offshore” penalties in Canada.
“Canada Revenue Agency won’t collect debts for the U.S. Internal Revenue Service if — or when — thousands of American citizens living in Canada are formally assessed huge penalties for failing to file annual returns and disclosures even though they don’t owe any U.S. tax.
The CRA had asked the federal finance department for a ruling on whether it should collect such penalties under the terms of a Canada-U.S. tax treaty.
In a statement released Monday, the department said the Canada-United States Income Tax Convention contains a reciprocal provision for collecting taxes (and other payments such as Social Security or Employment Insurance premiums) and for collecting penalties associated with these payments.
But, “the provision does not apply to penalties imposed pursuant to laws that impose only a reporting requirement (as opposed to those that impose taxation along with reporting requirements).”
The finance department statement adds, “Moreover, the obligation to collect taxes imposed by the other country does not apply in cases where the individual was a citizen of the requested state at the time the tax liability arose in that other country. This means that the CRA would not collect the U.S. tax liability of a Canadian citizen if the individual was a Canadian citizen at the time the liability arose (whether or not the individual was also a U.S. citizen at that time).”
The links to the original Don Cayo @ Vancouver Sun stories are defunct, but his August 2011 stories can be purchased for $4.50 from an archive service here:
http://www.fpinfomart.ca/news/ar_results.php?q=7269044&sort=pubd&spell=1
@LM
We need clarification on this. The impression I had from what Justice Martineau said was that he would have something by September 13th, but it would not be complete until later.