UPDATE SEPTEMBER 19, 2015: SEE ALSO DISCLAIMER AND LITIGATION UPDATES.
[This post, which began in May and having over 1000 revisions and 2000 comments, is being retired from service and updates. It lived through the success of reaching a total of $500,000 in donations from our kind, dear supporters who had little money to give, the hope and disappointment with the summary trial decision, and the certainty that we are now finally moving on to the Charter trial.]
CANADIAN CHARTER TRIAL UPDATE:
— We have instructed the Arvay team to prepare for the “Constitutional-Charter” trial. This means that our focus now, as it was in the beginning of our lawsuit, is on the Charter trial.
Unless there is a new expense in the future that we have not anticipated, the monies from your donations will be sufficient to take us through the “constitutional-charter” trial in Federal Court. However, to pay other legal bills we will need additional donations from our supporters, and a request for donations will appear on another post soon.
OUR LITIGATION HISTORY:
One year ago, on August 11, 2014, Litigator Joseph Arvay filed a FATCA IGA lawsuit in Canada Federal Court on behalf of Plaintiffs Ginny and Gwen, the Alliance for the Defence of Canadian Sovereignty (en français), and all peoples.
Because of a Government delay we initiated a “summary trial”, using a portion of the arguments, which offered the possibility of preventing private banking information from being turned over to the IRS before September 30, 2015. See Alliance’s Claims, our Alliance blog, and AUGUST 4-5 SUMMARY TRIAL FILINGS in LITIGATION UPDATES.
Reading about the Cons expert witness, and trying to anticipate what he will say – and contemplating that my local Canadian taxpayer dollars will pay his fee makes me mad all over again.
Don’t know about you, but the idea of the government of Canada abusing my and ALL my fellow Canadian taxpayers by using our hard earned dollars to defend a US extraterritorial law that extorts Canadian individuals and institutions, cedes our sovereignty, discriminates against/creates second tier citizenships and residents, abridges our privacy and Charter/constitutional rights, and imposes useless compliance costs on the financial sector and ALL accountholders makes my blood boil.
The only remedy?
Donate to ADCS and turn the heat up to MAX on the thermometer!
http://www.adcs-adsc.ca/
@Badger, I finished reading the Governments filing on pdf…….
To be honest, it was underwhelming and the response by their expert witness was like a tea bag on its fifth day.
I’m not a lawyer, but as far as I can tell by reading the affidavit of John P. Steines, Jr., he is simply confirming facts about U.S. tax law, not commenting about Canadian law which is relevant to the suit. So his testimony does not seem to address the issues in the lawsuit but just seems to provides background.
I will put my next contribution to the ADCS fund in the mail before the end of July. As usual, it must await deposit of a couple of cheques which arrive near the end of the month. I may have to post date my contribution cheque if I am to post it in time to reach ADCS by the end of the month.
Best wishes to all of the ADCS team!
@George, have just started reading it. Funny coincidence – the expert witness statement was dated CANADA DAY – July 1st, 2015 – one year to the day that FATCA IGA was activated – July 1st, 2014. Too bad no Canadian media is making hay of the ceding of Canadian sovereignty via the IGA on Canada Day 2014, and now, the Cons expert witness statement as part of their fight to continue that injury and continue subjugation to the US is also dated CANADA DAY.
As Lynn predicted in her review of 2014, looking towards the start of 2015 http://maplesandbox.ca/2014/fatca-in-canada-2014-year-in-review/ , this year, has proved to be very interesting and fruitful so far!
Now, lets get that bill paid on/before August 1st, and keep moving!
Onwards and upwards! Surgite!
I read the affidavit as well and found it underwhelming. All he does is quote US tax law.
There’s also a lot of info on the OECD common reporting standards. As far as I know, the OECD model does not require a country to report it’s own citizens and residents to a foreign country (even if they happen to be dual citizens of that country). I hope the judge in our case can distinguish between the IGA and the OECD model.
Hear! Here! badger!!!!!
Donate to ADCS and turn the heat up to MAX on the thermometer!
http://www.adcs-adsc.ca/
@badger points out a “funny coincidence”. The American expert’s statement the Canadian government submitted for the ACDS case was dated Canada Day, July 1.
To round out the bitter irony…
The many documents supporting the Canadian government’s case submitted by Stephanie Smith (Senior Chief, Tax Treaties Section, Department of Finance, Canada) were all sworn on (yes sir)… the Fourth of July.
https://adcsovereignty.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/2015-07-13-motion-record-of-the-defendants-vol-1_summary-trial-1.pdf
“The [Government] wants to present their case in the context of the evil of tax evasion and the importance of evolving international standards to eliminate it…”
The Canadian government plans to baffle us with bullsh!t at this summary trial, turning it into something it’s not.
First of all, “evil tax evasion” occurs when a person resides in one jurisdiction with unreported income from another jurisdiction. Our two plaintiffs have no financial interests in the U.S.
Second, the U.S, has not adhered to “international standards”. I don’t believe they’ve signed on to the OECD’s CRS.
Thirdly, unlike the IGA, OECD models are reciprocal and don’t require countries to report on their own citizens/residents.
And why is the government now talking about taxes when all along they’ve claimed that FATCA was “just an information reporting requirement”?
@Shovel, I noticed that too. How could it be coincidence that the Canadian federal official signed on the US fourth of July, and the US expert witness on Canada Day? Is it some kind of sick symbolism perpetrated by the federal government to indicate the depth of their commitment to deeper integration – and eventually union with the US? Is it an inside joke that only the Cons opposing us get?
Marie, regarding *international standards*, OECD, AEOI and CRS: https://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2015/04/29/senate-finance-committee-posts-submissions-and-shadow-raider-reports-to-brock/comment-page-8/#comment-6068565
@badger…Pretty scary stuff that you point out about the ADCS case and the government:
“How could it be coincidence that the Canadian federal official signed on the US fourth of July, and the US expert witness on Canada Day?”
And I’m sure we all remember that FATCA went in to effect on Canada Day, July 1 2014.
There has been some news coverage recently on India and Brazil signing FATCA IGAs with the good old USA. It seems these two countries, likely along with many others, are expecting that the IGA will be reciprocal. India and Brazil are expecting the USA to provide information on their citizens with US bank accounts as well. I just wonder how this all will play out.
@ PatCanadian and others planning to attend Vancouver:
Has anyone thought of printing a flier that could be printed and distributed on the sidewalk outside the courthouse? I’m talking about a flier which provides information about the issue and the fact that it is being argued in this very Federal Court and that donations to support this effort to reinstate the charter of rights and freedoms plus full Canadian sovereignty are still welcomed? Surely there will be some interested folks there we might help to educate. Some of us could take turns standing outside the courthouse? Is this too messy/in-your-face/irrelevant at that stage?
Just through I would throw this out for discussion.
Again, does anyone know what contacts/arrangements have been made so there will be good press coverage?
One other point, when I began the task of reading the Governments response I was thinking OH NO they are going to have a silver bullet because they have deep pockets.
Seriously on reading it, I was underwhelmed and thinking was this the best they could do or maybe am I missing something?????
As a reminder I do not like some of the issues that Joe Arvey has litigated but I can seperate that out and respect his skills as a lawyer because he is not just a good lawyer, he is in the top percent of his craft.
OK, I had to go back and read the Arvey documents……..
I know Team Harper has a bad track record in Court with their own appointees to boot….
In my mind tonight was “Does Team Harper want to lose?”
@LM
For me, it is enough just to attend the court proceedings to observe and learn what I can. This will be the first time I have experienced a Canadian Courtroom situation.
You may want to contact Stephen Kish or Tricia Moon about printing fliers or media coverage as they may know more about this and/or have an opinion as to whether passing out fliers is a good idea.
I look forward to seeing you there.
I am looking to spread the word. I wish to target Twitter pages of groups likely to have a relatively high number and high percentage of US persons. The American Chamber of Commerce of Canada is in my sights. @AmChamCanada . Has the US American Chamber of Commerce supported RBT (I might use to guilt the Canadian group)? Any other ideas?
@George “I was underwhelmed and thinking was this the best they could do….?????” “In my mind tonight was ‘Does Team Harper want to lose?’”
It WAS the best they could do. Because they have no case.
But Harper probably doesn’t care. He calculates that, even when ADCS wins, in his time frame there are few votes at stake (next election is October). Harper sees himself winning that election before the US gears up any real FATCA fallout (gives the Cons 4 more years), and then he bows out. Whatever major US FATCA action there is (30% withholding?) kicks in well after the ADCS win, so is his successor’s problem. Even then, all the blame can be pointed at those litigious, tax-cheat Americans living in Canada.
Sorry to be the very Devil’s advocate. It helps to know your enemy.
Hey all……
Been re-reading the Arvey brief for trial in a few weeks…….boy do I need a life……I relinquished a decade ago, left in peace…..visited a few times on my EU Passport with no problems……but the last three years…..
Anyways, Joe Arvey is one slick and skilled artisan of the law. Really, he is brilliant, his words are the sharp dagger in the night, small but sharp.
The USA created the Model IGAs without due care, they were hastily drafted, they are clever by half.
We need shirts “may be relevent.”
Those three words are the lotto ticket.
The IGA needed to be worked through the existing US Tax Treaty. Otherwise Congress would have been in a complete revolt. That was the fig leaf.
But the IGA demands a little bit too much information………………
Where am I going? The IGA demands account balance information.
Account balance information is not something reported by US banks to the IRS.
Account balance information IS used on FBARs but…….that is not under the US Tax Code!!!! The US does not have a wealth tax.
Ergo, account balance information can NOT be passed on to a partner treaty country because it does not pas the “may be relevent” smell test.
If the FATCA IGA simply required dividend information, interest information and even stock sale proceeds maybe it could have passed the “may be relevent” test in the Dual Tax Treaty.
Now does this mean the Judge could simply pare down the IGA and make it workable as to what is permissable or does it get thrown out as the whole thing is poison fruit?
Let me start with the court filing from Team Harper;
—
C. The Pllaintiffs
11. ‘ Both plaintiffs are individuals who possess Canadian citizenship pursuant to
the laws of Canada and United States (“US”) citizenship pursuant to US law. Neither
plaintiff has renounced their US citizenship.7
—-
What I would like to see or to have obtained or to pull out of a Judge is a statement along the following;
Both plaintiffs are recognized by the Government of Canada under Canadian Law as solely Canadian Citizens while they are in the territory of Canada.
“EmBee says
July 8, 2015 at 12:50 pm
Signed,
“Just say no”
And now we know how to say NO in Greek … OXI (pronounced oh-hee).
We can take inspiration from the recent referendum in Greece and from the history of Oxi Day — http://www.helleniccomserve.com/oxidaystathacopoulos.html
Soon we’ll have our Oxi Day in court but in the meantime our Sovereignty Thermometer needs to rise. PLEASE contribute whatever you can. Think of it as a way to say NO America you cannot override the laws of sovereign nations and NO America you cannot invade the privacy and jeopardize the financial security of what you call “US persons” who live in those sovereign nations.”
The Greek signed a FATCA law I do not know if this one protect Green Card in home country unlike the Canadian. Our FATCA also protects people who renounced but have not done exit taxes.
The original European FATCA used US person instead of US Citizens and resident
“Deal with IRS on bank account data”
http://www.ekathimerini.com/166452/article/ekathimerini/business/deal-with-irs-on-bank-account-data
The Greek Government also had to give into most of the European demand and thus ignore the referendum.
I like Marget Thatcher hates the European Union and wishes it disappears. The EU signed onto FATCA right away because they were buddies of Obama. Like the Liberal and NDP. The original European agreement used US persons definition.
“As Europe’s leaders return home from Brussels, after a marathon negotiating session that kept Greece in the eurozone at great cost to the country’s political sovereignty, the political landscape of the continent looks different, and not a little ominous. In forcing Alexis Tsipras’s government into abject surrender—over the entreaties of some of its neighbors, France in particular—Germany has, for perhaps the first time since reunification, in 1990, blatantly exerted its power on the European stage.”
http://www.newyorker.com/news/john-cassidy/a-humiliating-deal-for-greece
@ news
The Greek referendum was a very proud day for the Greek people. Despicably their government deceived and betrayed them (don’t all governments do the same?) but that does not alter the fact that they voted with courage. It’s a very long shot but I still hope the Greeks will find a way to wrench control of their country away from the cabal which seeks nothing but the complete economic destruction and sell-off of their country, as yet another demonstration of their global power. It was a symbolic take-down since Greece is considered to be the birthplace of democracy. Anyway I’m still inspired by the spirit of that referendum and think it’s vital to try and try again or we will all sink slowly into the morass.
“THANKS FOR TODAY’S DONATION FROM A CONTINUOUS SUPPORTER FROM ENGLAND. So….why did the UK sign off on the FATCA “agreement” with the United States [In contract law you don’t have a valid contract if one party signs off only because of threat of harm.]? UK, just like Canada, admits to its shame: “Failure to meet these new reporting obligations would result in a 30% withholding tax on the financial institutions.” ”
I do believe that this is correct …. Contracts signed under duress are unenforceable I think …. any lawyers out there care to comment?
TY for the response Stephen … sad as I about the actual reply. I suppose this is because Treaties are arrived at for example after one country has been bludgeoned by another into submission by war or other abuse.
A suggestion in the form of a question. Might it be good to send an invitation to every Bar Association around the world to send representatives to observe the Aug 4 & 5 Trial in Vancouver? and then to attend a briefing as to the Constitutional issues arising which probably affect every country on earth ?
I recently made such a suggestion to a few Jamaican Lawyers gathered socially and have suggested that they gather a few dollars and invite ADCS to send Dr Kish and John Richardson for a weekend seminar. I also gave the links to this web site and a couple of the US ones. I do not know if there will be take up.
Amid all the bustle on Brock today (declarations, CTV article, Speedy’s request for advice) let’s take a couple of moments to be happy it’s now $44,482 to go (that’s getting nearer the 30K zone). It was a good donation day. I believe those numbers would be considered lucky by the Chinese. They love eights and I think numbers like four which combine or multiply to make 8 (if so I see 3, lucky eights there). Anyway lets hope it’s lucky for the Sovereignty Thermometer. Good luck ADCS! I know that August 4th (8th month, 4th day) deadline is looming but a lot can happen in 2 weeks.
Not sure where to post this so I’ll put it here:
On CTV news today, there is a printed caption going across the bottom of the TV screen at regular intervals which states:
“Canadian Banks began sending financial information on dual American-Canadian citizens to the U.S. this month with the United States searching for any Americans not paying their taxes.”
There doesn’t seem to be anything actually said about this on the news station though which seems odd . Has anyone else seen this?
Also here is related news article today:
“Canadian banks began sending financial information on U.S. and U.S.-Canadian citizens to the Canadian Revenue Agency (CRA) and the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) this month.” Although I have read that the CRA is obligated to forward this information to the IRS by the end of September 2015.
At least we are referred to as Canadian citizens this time. I am glad to no longer be a US citizen. Please see the follow up story:
http://www.ctvnews.ca/business/why-some-canadians-bank-info-is-being-sent-to-irs-1.2477572
There are some interesting quotes from Steven Flynn, a tax lawyer from Vancouver and Greg Boos, U.S. immigration attorney in Bellingham, Wash. Both Boos and Flynn recommend dual citizens meet with a U.S. tax consultant (the usual tax condor advice). It depends on your situation, of course, but I did the old paper self filing. It sure saved a lot in accounting fees and I didn’t owe tax anyway.
“It can be a very scary thing,” Flynn said. “But FATCA is forcing people to realize that they don’t have to be a U.S. citizen anymore.” I would add that many should not be considered US citizens for tax purposes at all. I also think articles like this bring FATCA to the public eye. Hopefully those who are just waking up to this will have a look at this website and Isaac Brock. It’s good timing for our lawsuit.
Oops…at the end of last comment I meant to say Hopefully those who are just waking up to this will have a look at Isaac Brock and Maple Sandbox. It’s good timing for our lawsuit and incentive to donate to ACDS.