UPDATE SEPTEMBER 19, 2015: SEE ALSO DISCLAIMER AND LITIGATION UPDATES.
[This post, which began in May and having over 1000 revisions and 2000 comments, is being retired from service and updates. It lived through the success of reaching a total of $500,000 in donations from our kind, dear supporters who had little money to give, the hope and disappointment with the summary trial decision, and the certainty that we are now finally moving on to the Charter trial.]
CANADIAN CHARTER TRIAL UPDATE:
— We have instructed the Arvay team to prepare for the “Constitutional-Charter” trial. This means that our focus now, as it was in the beginning of our lawsuit, is on the Charter trial.
Unless there is a new expense in the future that we have not anticipated, the monies from your donations will be sufficient to take us through the “constitutional-charter” trial in Federal Court. However, to pay other legal bills we will need additional donations from our supporters, and a request for donations will appear on another post soon.
OUR LITIGATION HISTORY:
One year ago, on August 11, 2014, Litigator Joseph Arvay filed a FATCA IGA lawsuit in Canada Federal Court on behalf of Plaintiffs Ginny and Gwen, the Alliance for the Defence of Canadian Sovereignty (en français), and all peoples.
Because of a Government delay we initiated a “summary trial”, using a portion of the arguments, which offered the possibility of preventing private banking information from being turned over to the IRS before September 30, 2015. See Alliance’s Claims, our Alliance blog, and AUGUST 4-5 SUMMARY TRIAL FILINGS in LITIGATION UPDATES.
I fully agree with @US_Foreign_Person. There is still one more payment to be made and we have seen it is not easy to pull together each of these instalments. Talk of what to do next is like discussing the next race to be run while still in the last lap of the current race IMHO. Right now I think it is most important to clearly show the Harper government that we will not go away and we will see this lawsuit through to its conclusion. Of course, any opportunity to bring these matters to the attention of legislators can and should be taken, but in terms of where we put our money, we have a fund raising job to finish.
@Dreamer
“You live in the USA, right?”
Yes, like many people in my line of work (hi tech) from Canada, I came to the USA years ago and stayed. I’m not sure if I would do the same if I had the chance to do it all over again–however, I’ve learned that it is much easier in my field to move from Canada to the USA than to later move back in the reverse direction. I’ve periodically looked for work in my field back in Canada but this has never met with much enthusiasm from Canadian employers–the attitude from Canadian employers has tended to be that I’m overqualified for Canadian jobs. I don’t necessarily think that is an accurate assessment, but my personal experience has been, since moving to the USA, that US employers have always shown me much more enthusiasm than Canadian employers–so I’ve ended up staying even though that was definitely not my plan originally.
Everyone these days from my undergrad institution–the University of Waterloo–wants to work in Silicon Valley. No one is excited about staying in Canada and no one is inspired by someone moving in the reverse direction (Silicon Valley back to Canada).
I’m not quite sure, though, how your question is relevant to the previous discussion?
@Dash1729 re: “I’m not quite sure, though, how your question is relevant to the previous discussion? ”
People such as yourself who “came to the USA years ago and stayed”, will naturally identify less strongly with the concept of ‘Canadian sovereignty’ and will thus be less likely to discern the difference between an attack on Canadian sovereignty and an attack on US policies, than will those who ‘came to CANADA years ago and stayed’.
@Charl
Re: suit against CBT: Yue has Tweeted once that if $50K appears that he will have Bopp do an opinion for a suit against CBT.
@Dreamer. The Canada-US Tax treaty is an enabling document for CBT because it does not say otherwise. The treaty provides the consent of the Canadian government for the US tax laws to flow across the border and impact Canadians who are US persons.
The FATCA lawsuit with highlight the injustices embodied by the Canada-US Tax Treaty, and will make it more open for attack.
@Dash1729, ooops.. should have wrote, “… less likely to discern the difference between a DEFENCE of Canadian sovereignty and an attack on US policies”
@Dreamer
“People such as yourself who “came to the USA years ago and stayed”, will naturally identify less strongly with the concept of ‘Canadian sovereignty’”
This is BS for a number of reasons.
For one thing, this is exactly what Harper said about Ignatieff and Canadians swallowed it hook, line and sinker–and that is certainly part of the reason Canadians are stuck with Harper these days (not the only reason but it was definitely part of the context of the 2011 election and the reasons for the current makeup of Canada’s Parliament).
Secondly I’ve said this before in this thread but I’ll say it again–I’ll defer to the leaders of the ADSC-ADCS effort–all of whom DO reside in Canada–to make the final judgment as to what is or is not an attack on Canadian sovereignty. I’m not the one who will make the final decision here as to what ADSC-ADCS does. But if they–who, again, do reside in Canada–decide to go this route I’ll support them. I’m pretty sure that ADSC-ADCS has, at least, seriously considered some form of legal action in the USA.
Thirdly the idea that someone somehow feels less connection to the country they grew up in simply by virtue of having been away for years or decades is, quite simply, rather offensive. This is an especially surprising sentiment to see on here given the pain that many on here have described–despite being out of the USA for decades and being a dual citizen for most of that time–on being forced to renounce or relinquish US citizenship because of the realities of CBT and FATCA.
For 2/3 of my time in the USA so far I didn’t even have a green card so you better believe Canadian sovereignty was important to me. Without a green card you have zero rights in the USA.
Finally from a Christian perspective I think the Golden Rule applies here. You want the USA to start treating its expats better? Be respectful of Canada’s expats.
Dash1729,
I agree that I was making a stereotypical call presuming that as a group, people who have lived in Canada for many years, would have a tendency to be more in tune with Canadian sovereignty than would people who have lived outside Canada for many years. Hmmm…did I just agree to disagree with myself?
Regardless, this does not in anyway negate the validity of the argument that fighting CBT in American courts does not really mesh with the concept of defending Canadian sovereignty.
Is it the last payment…or how many are there to some? Sigh….it troubles me not to see any outcome or steps. What exactly is the money used for? I also think the blog is crammed with so many things, many of them are irrelevant and distracting. 300k – and what are you doing with this money? Tangible results, please! What did you achieve…?I also lose focus in this mess…and unfortunately interest. Please keep this in mind as I am definitely not the only one!
@Dreamer
**People such as yourself who “came to the USA years ago and stayed”, will naturally identify less strongly with the concept of ‘Canadian sovereignty’ and will thus be less likely to discern the difference between an attack on Canadian sovereignty and an attack on US policies, than will those who ‘came to CANADA years ago and stayed**
I am in a similar situation as @Dash1729…. I have lived/live in the US & world wide due to work & family situatations… No matter where I am… I know what is going in my home country of Canada… my family of immigrants is there… more then 3 generations… u will be surprised to learn… quite a few canadians who are outside of Canada know more about what is going on in Canada then canadians who live there… they also vote… which is more then I can say about some canadians who live in Canada who can’t be bothered to vote but will moan & complain about everything… *Canadian sovereignty* is something my family understands very well… but its seems the gov’t has forgotten what it means… Being born or choosing to go to Canada.. makes no difference… we are all the same… so if your intention was to say… u are more canadian then my family is because u choose Canada then u are wrong…
@Corey- These things cost money. ADCS has a top litigator with track record before the Supreme Court. You should read the legal claim. The Canadian government has delayed legal action. There is a court date in August.
@US_Foreign_Person, re: ” so if your intention was to say… u are more canadian then my family is because u choose Canada then u are wrong… ”
No. That was not my intention at all. And I find the insinuation as insulting as you find the suggestion.
@JC Interesting that Mr Yue never posted that on the RO FB site unless I missed it. Many of us are not on twitter so I would hardly find that a concerted effort. He hasn’t responded for days now on the requests made by many on the FB site. I guess I should be grateful that he is at least doing something substantive.
On another note, boy am I appreciative of the ADSC team. Our dear Walt stated on the AARO site: “They are the only organization (meaning ADCS) with cojones and not interested in ingratiating themselves with the enemy.”
I agree. It seems no one is willing to go after Cook but ADCS. When I brought it up I was asked to be patient, helpful and appreciative of any actions taken. In other words…shut up!
@Dreamer
We will let it go at that… both of us find each of our statements insulting… I have no bone to pick with u nor do u with me… we both have a bone to pick with the both gov’ts… we will agree on that… correct… we will move on and start kicking it up to raise more money to make sure we are all winners & the gov’ts are losers….
@US_Foreign_Person, I am not here to debate who is more in tune with Canadian sovereignty or who is more ‘Canadian’ than who, despite the reality that different groups will have different biases and attachments as this is just human nature and not a discriminatory judgement that applies to all people. The only point I have been trying to get at is that a fight against CBT within the US justice system does not mesh well with the purpose of an organization called the Alliance for the Defence of Canadian Sovereignty. That is ALL I have been trying to say. Please stop reading more into it, and going off rail.
@Corey,
Here is some of the tangibles that the donations have paid for, in addition to the initial legal opinion that set out potential outcomes, issues, etc. You can see evidence that things have been happening all along;
http://cas-ncr-nter03.cas-satj.gc.ca/IndexingQueries/infp_RE_info_e.php?court_no=T-1736-14
A legal challenge expected to go all the way to the Supreme Court level on issues as complex as this is quite an undertaking. Even a lawsuit much smaller than this one would take time to get to court and time to be heard. Much of the action occurs behind the scenes – and cannot be disclosed widely, or on the internet for strategic reasons. When suing someone it is natural and logical to keep one’s strategy and arguments and details under wraps. One doesn’t tip one’s hand, and show the opponent the cards. And as for the Canadian government, it has been acting in bad faith all along, since way before we got to this point, redacting documents that should be available in a democracy (for example, in earlier requests by Canadian citizens (and MPs, ex. http://blog.tedhsu.ca/2014/01/28/government-responds-to-my-fatca-question/ ) for documents re the FATCA IGA http://maplesandbox.ca/2014/finance-canada-244-pages-access-to-information/comment-page-1/ ) and stalling as much as it can – hoping that we will run out of funds and steam and determination.
We have come far further than anyone would ever have dreamed back in late 2011.
I can understand that readers would like details but that isn’t possible, and might endanger the success of the effort. Hang in there. Be patient. Think marathon vs. sprint.
As for the website, this is a volunteer effort. It has grown exponentially over the years since 2011. If you want specific information, ask a question and someone will try to point out an answer or source as best we can. The admins and the participants are doing the best they can. When we started, there was nothing at all to help. This grew from nothing to what you see. It may be unwieldy at times, but it is hard to say how to do it differently. It has helped numerous people, as I can attest, and I hope that you are able to find something that will help you too.
I don’t think it’s too difficult to set the groundwork for a second court challenge while at the same time, finishing the funding the current law suit. I agree that funding for the current suit should be completed before starting funding for a second one. There is however no reason why planning can’t start. Even if fat a goes away, you still have to file and pay American taxes. Over turning CBT is the best possible outcome. I think funding for it would be easy. If people around the world heard that we are challenging CBT, money would pour in. So many people are happy the fatca suit is going ahead, but there are many of us that think going after CBT is more important.
The people running this site are highly talented and educated people who are volunteering their efforts for us. If they think getting a CBT suit going AFTER we finish funding the first one, I agree with them. As I stated, there is a real chance we may lose the fatca suit here in Canada. Then what? Wouldn’t it be nice to already have another iron in the fire? We can walk and chew gum at the same time.
@Phil
I agree 100%
@Phil,
you said: “The people running this site are highly talented and educated people who are volunteering their efforts for us. If they think getting a CBT suit going AFTER we finish funding the first one, I agree with them”
Firstly, do you even know who runs “this site” or the difference between “this site” and ADCS?
And secondly, do you think that the five sole members of ACDC who also head the organization that they created themselves, which is separate and distinct from “this site”, have some special attributes that make them more capable of determining which fights are in the best interests of a defence of Canadian sovereignty for which they say they are purported to be all about? To some degree, it is that sort of thinking that got us into this mess in the first place with the Canadian government. Dash1729 agrees with you by the way. I must be missing something.
@Phil, its not an issue of walking and chewing gum at the same time. No one disputes that CBT should be attacked within the USA by US citizens who care about US law, while at the same time, Canadians who care about Canadian law are defending themselves from a FATCA IGA within Canada.
I see CBT legal action by ADCS really sort of an extension of the FATCA IGA lawsuit in that if the FATCA IGA isn’t overturned, fighting CBT will be the only recourse available to stop the wholesale turnover of private information to the US government. The issue is whether the CBT lawsuit is initiated before or after the verdict is in on the FATCA IGA suit – the former as to not to have all our eggs in one basket (as Ann says), the latter maybe making us wish we had taken the additional course of action.
Please delete one “maybe” there.
So, why don’t we all just agree that the purpose of ACDC is to kill CBT. Whether we do this by killing the FATCA IGA in Canada in hopes to start the dominoes falling worldwide to kill FATCA globally, or by attacking CBT from within the USA itself, and regardless of the timing of the attacks – the purpose remains the same – death to USA’s CBT. Once this is done, we can all go home, and not fret too much about something called ‘Canadian sovereignty’.
Dreamer, bottom line is CBT must end ASAP. Who cares how it gets done or by who,
Right. That’s what I thought.