ADMISSION FEE $20 UNLESS OTHERWISE NOTED (to cover costs)
- Toronto, ON U.S. Citizenship & Young Adults: Navigating The Special Rules Imposed On U.S.Citizens Abroad Sat, June 7, 10 am to 12 noon, Univ of Toronto, St. Michael’s College, Carr Hall, 100 St. Joseph St, MAP NB: $20 individual or $40 for a family of up to four people
Vancouver notes (Feb 22) Updated on March 28 here
Toronto group Saturday, January 25, 2014, Carr Hall
I received the following announcement about information sessions, provided by Toronto based lawyer, for people affected by the USA’s extra-territorial tax overreach which violates Canada’s sovereignty. I think it is a good idea. If you are an alleged US person and you have become aware that the US claims that you should be filing your taxes, please do nothing, do not enter the OVDI program, and above all, do not call a US cross border tax specialist (neither a lawyer nor an accountant), but educate yourself first. The paid experts will scare the hell out of you. There are many options besides allowing a cross border specialist lead you as a lamb to the slaughter.
If you are a Canadian citizen or resident of Canada, you have specific rights and protections that even FATCA cannot revoke. This is why these informational sessions will be useful to you. They will lay out and explore all your options.
Sincerely, Petros
Please note that the speaker would like help finding venues that are inexpensive or free. Perhaps those living in the various cities could ask if a Church or other may be able to offer space. Please keep returning for updates.
Here is the announcement:
Recent CBC Coverage of FATCA and Citizenship-based taxation:
The recent CBC coverage of FATCA and U.S. extraterritorial taxation has raised awareness/concern over the plight of Canadian citizens of U.S. origin. Those who are learning about this for the first time (the OMG moment) will be experiencing a combination of shock, fear, betrayal and more. There will be lots of people interested in understanding the situation and determining whether and/or how to respond.
The following comment appeared on the blog:
Looks like the recent media coverage is creating mass panic in Canada. This might force the Canadian government to issue a statement sooner rather than later. This is good. But I feel bad for the people who are just having their OMG moment. They need some sound advice as to not to make bad decisions which would devastate them financially. While each situation is different, the Canadian government owes it to affected Canadians to provide some guidance and advice and fast. It needs to be official cannot just come from web sites like IBS or Maple Sandbox. Maybe the administrators should add some notes like they can’t be held responsible for actions that people take by following advice on these blogs. This is common sense, but might protect you from lawsuits.
We agree! The important thing it to stay calm! Do NOT panic! Do not react to this situation! Take your time to make the decisions that are appropriate to your situation! Above all else, do NOT even consider entering the Offshore Voluntary Disclosure Program or any other kind of disclosure program unless you are certain that it is right for you (which it almost certainly is NOT)!
Obviously NO blog or web site can provide reliable legal advice. No seminar for the general public can provide reliable legal advice! Your job is simply to begin gathering information and beginning to understand the new reality of U.S. citizenship.
What follows are a list of “Solving The Problems of U.S. Citizenship” information sessions that you can attend, for a nominal fee and anonymously! The sessions are NOT intended to provide legal advice. But, they are intended to help you identify the issues that may apply to your situation.
Do NOT engage the services of an accountant or lawyer before equipping yourself with some basic knowledge!
Solving The Problems of U.S. Citizenship – Exploratory Sessions
The topics covered are designed to alert you to issues and are NOT offered as legal or accounting advice specific to your situation.
They include:
Citizenship Issues:
– Are you STILL a U.S. citizen?
– Are your children U.S. citizens?
– What might FATCA mean for me?
Tax Issues
– Filing U.S. tax returns – what’s involved?
– Filing information returns (FBAR, Form 3520, 5471, etc.)
– Reasonable cause (avoiding penalties)
Financial Planning Issues
– investment products that are cancerous for U.S. citizens
Does it make sense to renounce U.S. citizenship?
– Renouncing U.S. citizenship
____________________________________________________________________
How To Attend …
Once a session has been marked “CONFIRMED” you are free to attend. Each session will have a $20 admission fee (to offset the cost of the room) which is payable in cash at the door. Neither taping nor video of any kind will be permitted.
first published 14 January 2014
I’d like to see the day when the US states in no uncertain terms that children of US citizens who are entitled to US citizenship don’t have it unless those children (or their parents) take decisive action to claim it.
It will be difficult to prove your son isn’t a USC to the bank, to prove a negative. You certainly aren’t going to get him a SSN, defeating any future ability to claim he never gained US citizenship.
@Atticus – I am not able to check my e-mail because I have forgotten it as it was created just for this board. I am not in Ontario so won’t be at the meetings.
My point was that it seemed that initially there seemed to be some mystery about who would be presenting the sessions. If, going immediately to the Nazi example as as some on this board are wont to do, it was a known neoNazi giving the info session, then I would unlikely want to attend said session nor would the person I know who needs info about FATCA.
Thanks for your reassurance about the info session in Kingston here on IBS – since I can no longer access that e-mail this is helpful to pass on to the person who does live near Kingston
Again if she get a letter from the bank stating that they will shut down her son account because he is recalcitrant, she can apply for A SSN. I think it is very unlikely the banks would even send her that letter. The banks can not withhold on any non US $account. She may get letter from the IRS which she can throw out. The legal precedent about banks not being able to collect for USA is
RE VAN DEMARK ET AL. AND TORONTO-DOMINION BANK
http://uniset.ca/other/cs6/68OR2d379.html
I think that this is very important in any Supreme Court of Canada application
To the best of my memory Under FATCA bank employees are criminally responsible if they hide a US persons.
Do I sound angry when I ask where are the fucking “constitutional” lawyers that should be suing out government at every turn? BTW no one here should have accounts in transnational banks if they can be replaced with a credit union account for at least the credit unions cannot invest in the USA generally and the relationship with their members is not the same as a banks relationship with an individual. If FATCA fails in Canada it will be because the credit unions will not and cannot comply with it.
bubblebustin,
There are only so many mistakes one person (Me!) can make in all of this. I will not willingly make another mistake to add to all my others and enter one more person of our family into the realm of US absurdity — that is if I can at all help it. I’m only doing what I can do being in between that rock and a hard place, my son entrapped there too. Although I don’t yet know the more adverse results my decision will make for my family, I’m glad that I told my story.
@Calgary411
I am glad you told your story too. It helped many many people see the light of the darkside of FATCA.
I think I know what kind of wrestling you had to do in your own mind before you made the decision you did, Calgary, and I have the greatest admiration for you for having told your story. Without stories from victims, there can be no evidence of wrongdoing. Imagine the US being forced to take the stance that your son is a US taxpayer and the backlash that would have? Imagine your relief (and many others) if they state that he’s not?
Hi everyone,
@victoria & other Uk people: the talk looks great, but I went to an earlier one via my alumni association. I went because my mother kept on running across snippets in the Wall Street Journal about how non-US spouses caused tax problems. Normally, I wouldn’t go to a talk with estate planning in the title and most of the audience seemed wealthy (I checked a table and the 40% tax rate for estates applies to a fairly large estate, but it is 35% no matter what. My one concern about the London talk is that there is a really complicated UK side to this as well. I have read some blogs where people recommend US mutual funds for US citizens in the UK and that is simply wrong: at present unless it is in an IRA the tax is horrendous.
.
I understand the point about not voting if you are renouncing. I know a lot of you are Americans in name only. I just think that middle-class Americans abroad have a real political problem and in U.S. politics if you’re not at the table you’re on it. The one really big organization is based in Switzerland, which is really problematic for this issue and with a $70 annual membership fee and no clear membership benefits for the individual members, I can’t see it turning itself into NRA or AARP, even though there are loads of potential members. I see this as an issue that should not be allowed to become partisan unnecessarily: AIPAC, the Israel lobby’s main group, always has a Democrat and a Republican introduce its legislation because then you don’t alienate anyone.
@calgary411
I can only guess that it must’ve been hell to have to do some serious soul searching on what to do for your son. I can only struggle to understand as it’s really only me in my plight, and that there are no children involved. Well, I have to make sure my wife isn’t tangled up in the mess that is my US personhood.
@Vote in the 2014 U.S. primary
I note with particular interest this part of your comment:
Sorry but you have actually got this COMPLETELY WRONG!
It’s the exact opposite.
It’s the U.S. spouse that is causing the tax problem.
Let me repeat that:
It’s the U.S. spouse that is causing the tax problem.
In what I would call “The FBAR Marriage” the U.S. spouse, by virtue of being a U.S. person, causes damage BOTH to:
1. The non-U.S. spouse; and
2. To the U.S. person himself.
Re 1: Damage to the non-U.S. spouse
Because he/she is married to a U.S. person. the non-U.S. spouse has to deal with disabilities, that include, but are NOT limited to the following:
– finances invaded through FBAR, FATCA, and other reporting requirements
– chained to a spouse that is disabled from normal retirement planning vehicles in the country of residence
– an inability to inherit the estate of the U.S. spouse because the normal marital deduction does not apply
– the incredible extra expenses and stress of U.S. tax filings
Re 2: Damage to the U.S. Spouse
Obviously any U.S. person with a shred of integrity would want to protect the non-U.S. spouse from the U.S. tax system. This means he/she must file under the box of:
“married filing separately”
As severe punishment for “married filing separately” the thresholds for exemptions from various taxes (including the new Obamacare investment surtax) are capped at $125,000.
Contrast that with an threshold of $400,000 for “single filers” and $450,000 for “married filing jointly”.
In other words, the U.S. spouse is severely punished under U.S. tax law for protecting the non-U.S. spouse.
As one commenter recently put it:
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2013/12/30/irs-insider-explains-why-the-united-states-has-never-enforced-the-reed-amendments-banishment-provision-he-thinks-its-funny/comment-page-9/#comment-917419
Although I agree that U.S. persons do not marry “aliens” as a form of tax evasion, I think it is very very likely that U.S. persons will NOT be able to find marriage partners outside the Homeland for much longer.
Want more info on the FBAR Marriage and why it should be avoided?
http://renounceuscitizenship.wordpress.com/2013/09/13/the-liability-of-a-lawyer-and-the-fbar-marriage/
Many US citizens with children are faced with the issues Calgary is, only her’s is a more egregious example in that her son can neither opt in nor opt out of US citizenship, while the US government fails to clarify whether opting in is necessary in qualifying one for the responsibilities as a US taxpayer. When those children we share our bank accounts with are required to prove they aren’t US persons to the bank (guilt by association) what choice will they have but to get a SSN and file, if the US refuses to state that those children must opt-in to US citizenship? Without that clarification, how do our children prove they aren’t USC’s?
Correction: above I should have said that many of you are U.S. citizens by definition only.
@USCitizenAbroad
“finances invaded through FBAR, FATCA, and other reporting requirements”
Yes, provided they have joint accounts, which my wife and I don’t have, in order to shelter her from the IRS.
“chained to a spouse that is disabled from normal retirement planning vehicles in the country of residence”
“an inability to inherit the estate of the U.S. spouse because the normal marital deduction does not apply”
“the incredible extra expenses and stress of U.S. tax filings”
True, true, and true.
“Obviously any U.S. person with a shred of integrity would want to protect the non-U.S. spouse from the U.S. tax system. This means he/she must file under the box of:
“married filing separately”
As severe punishment for “married filing separately” the thresholds for exemptions from various taxes (including the new Obamacare investment surtax) are capped at $125,000.
Contrast that with an threshold of $400,000 for “single filers” and $450,000 for “married filing jointly”.
In other words, the U.S. spouse is severely punished under U.S. tax law for protecting the non-U.S. spouse.”
All true. All US persons must be punished for leaving the plantation. Doubly so if they’re doing the right thing by protecting their foreign spouses. After all, their love for country is supposed to come first.
“It’s the U.S. spouse that is causing the tax problem.”
And here is where I’m having the problem. Seeing that it is I that is being used and abused by the US government’s tax policy, for the high crime of leaving, along with the treasonous act of marrying a foreign spouse, then it really is the US government that is causing the tax problem. Blaming me is akin to blaming the victim. Is that what you really want to do here?
Is it now clear to all why I want to lose my US citizenship? I didn’t ask to be a victim. I only want a better life.
See, my problem is that I can choose the option of statelessness, but it might end up being a fight for it, plus having to pay $450, and in the end, having no way to see my family stateside without having to get both a Certificate of Identity, and a visitor visa, all at my expense, or….
I can wait until I acquire Canadian citizenship, and then relinquish US citizenship at the US consulate after notifying them of my expatriating act.
@USCitizenAbroad
You are right about what the situation is. The articles were hopelessly vague. My mother told me that non-US spouses caused problems because that is what she was understanding. The articles themselves provided no useful specifics, just advice to talk a tax advisor.
I don’t think that awareness of FATCA is widespread enough to prevent other people from marrying U.S. citizens, since most people don’t organize their life around taxation. Unfortunately, there are a number of nasty gotchas in store for those who are insufficiently aware of the potential problems caused for the non-U.S. surviving spouse by joint ownership of the house instead of owning specific percentages, by pensions with a specified value, and by insurance taken out in the U.S. person’s name. I almost died a few years ago and am shocked by how much of a hit my young family could have taken. Ironically, the laws are encouraging me to transfer assets to my non-US spouse, but for me the legal limits ($143,000 last year) aren’t at all constraining.
You are correct about the problems for those who earn $125,000 and over, but I think that more attention needs to be given to the fact that there are problems for those under $125,000 as well. I don’t earn that much and have noticed that many examples of the bad effects of U.S. taxation of overseas Americans deal with people who are really wealthy. I can understand why tax consultants do this, since they want to attract high net worth clients, but it creates the impression that U.S. tax policy on overseas Americans only affects the wealthy, which is definitely not true. I suspect that this misunderstanding is why the tax talk I went to, which was free to alumni, only attracted very expensively dressed people (the one exception turned out to be a hedge fund manager who had been to several such talks!).
I am getting jaded. Yesterday I noticed that the government wanted to encourage college students to study in Latin America and my first thought was that they shouldn’t fall in love!
“I am getting jaded. Yesterday I noticed that the government wanted to encourage college students to study in Latin America and my first thought was that they shouldn’t fall in love!”
Nope. They shouldn’t fall in love. Not without at least understanding all of the ramifications that may come from an international marriage.
You’re right. US persons are nothing buy liabilities, unless of course the intention is to live in the homeland. In good conscience, a full disclosure must be made.
I would say it’s correct as far as it goes. The $144K exemption is the annual amount you can gift to your foreign spouse tax free *and* without affecting your lifetime unified estate and gift exclusion. If you are willing to make use of this exclusion, you can gift up to about $5.34M (TY2014) tax free over your lifetime. Note that every dollar used to gift in this way would reduce your lifetime exclusion by one dollar. At least, that’s how I understand it.
@All
I hope the Brockers were tuned into the Rick Mercer Report tonight. Rick did a funny skit highlighting FATCA . My daughter says his show is uploaded on you tube within a week. It is not to be missed.
@Disgusted
SERIOUSLY? I suppose if anyone could make FATCA funny, it would be Rick Mercer – and with the customary shots taken at Harper. Can’t wait!
@Disgusted
When you know it is online please let us know.
@ northernstar
Watch for it here (probably tomorrow) or catch the rebroadcast on Friday. It will be Episode 10.
http://www.cbc.ca/mercerreport/
@ Bubblebustin: Sorry, poor choice of words. I did laugh though between my sobs.
Don’t miss the rant its a doozy and a must see for any Canadian that still has a pulse.
OMG, Rick Mercer on FATCA.
Can’t wait.
@Vote in 2014 U.S. PRIMARY Elections
I like your comment about not falling in love in Latin America.
I have lived in Canada since I was 3 years old. Was born in California in 1969 just before America landed on the moon. I was raised on a farm in Quebec and later moved out west to BC with my parents. I had always been proud to be American. Except for the time I visited Germany where my father was born. It was better to be Canadian for sure! Americans are not well loved overseas. Hence why some US travelers don a Canada flag on their backpacks.
I learned of the IRS move to tax people overseas this year as a result of a CBC report. Thank you CBC. It seems now that Americans will be even less ‘loved’.
My current plan is to file for Canadian Citizen Certificate and then renounce my american citizenship and then ‘get straight’ with the ^%$^%#$%#$ IRS. (CRA is bad enough!)
I am not a huge earner, nor any major investments overseas and barely prepared for retirement. I want my kids off this leash as well as my ex wife.
It seems the US is scuttling their own ship with this act. And all for what? To crush a few billion dollars out of the lives of Americans living abroad? I see! So the US can take that money and send it to Wall Street.
Looking forward to a Vancouver group.
@Disgusted…
Not there yet… 🙂
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=rick%20mercer%20report&sm=1