ADMISSION FEE $20 UNLESS OTHERWISE NOTED (to cover costs)
- Toronto, ON U.S. Citizenship & Young Adults: Navigating The Special Rules Imposed On U.S.Citizens Abroad Sat, June 7, 10 am to 12 noon, Univ of Toronto, St. Michael’s College, Carr Hall, 100 St. Joseph St, MAP NB: $20 individual or $40 for a family of up to four people
Vancouver notes (Feb 22) Updated on March 28 here
Toronto group Saturday, January 25, 2014, Carr Hall
I received the following announcement about information sessions, provided by Toronto based lawyer, for people affected by the USA’s extra-territorial tax overreach which violates Canada’s sovereignty. I think it is a good idea. If you are an alleged US person and you have become aware that the US claims that you should be filing your taxes, please do nothing, do not enter the OVDI program, and above all, do not call a US cross border tax specialist (neither a lawyer nor an accountant), but educate yourself first. The paid experts will scare the hell out of you. There are many options besides allowing a cross border specialist lead you as a lamb to the slaughter.
If you are a Canadian citizen or resident of Canada, you have specific rights and protections that even FATCA cannot revoke. This is why these informational sessions will be useful to you. They will lay out and explore all your options.
Sincerely, Petros
Please note that the speaker would like help finding venues that are inexpensive or free. Perhaps those living in the various cities could ask if a Church or other may be able to offer space. Please keep returning for updates.
Here is the announcement:
Recent CBC Coverage of FATCA and Citizenship-based taxation:
The recent CBC coverage of FATCA and U.S. extraterritorial taxation has raised awareness/concern over the plight of Canadian citizens of U.S. origin. Those who are learning about this for the first time (the OMG moment) will be experiencing a combination of shock, fear, betrayal and more. There will be lots of people interested in understanding the situation and determining whether and/or how to respond.
The following comment appeared on the blog:
Looks like the recent media coverage is creating mass panic in Canada. This might force the Canadian government to issue a statement sooner rather than later. This is good. But I feel bad for the people who are just having their OMG moment. They need some sound advice as to not to make bad decisions which would devastate them financially. While each situation is different, the Canadian government owes it to affected Canadians to provide some guidance and advice and fast. It needs to be official cannot just come from web sites like IBS or Maple Sandbox. Maybe the administrators should add some notes like they can’t be held responsible for actions that people take by following advice on these blogs. This is common sense, but might protect you from lawsuits.
We agree! The important thing it to stay calm! Do NOT panic! Do not react to this situation! Take your time to make the decisions that are appropriate to your situation! Above all else, do NOT even consider entering the Offshore Voluntary Disclosure Program or any other kind of disclosure program unless you are certain that it is right for you (which it almost certainly is NOT)!
Obviously NO blog or web site can provide reliable legal advice. No seminar for the general public can provide reliable legal advice! Your job is simply to begin gathering information and beginning to understand the new reality of U.S. citizenship.
What follows are a list of “Solving The Problems of U.S. Citizenship” information sessions that you can attend, for a nominal fee and anonymously! The sessions are NOT intended to provide legal advice. But, they are intended to help you identify the issues that may apply to your situation.
Do NOT engage the services of an accountant or lawyer before equipping yourself with some basic knowledge!
Solving The Problems of U.S. Citizenship – Exploratory Sessions
The topics covered are designed to alert you to issues and are NOT offered as legal or accounting advice specific to your situation.
They include:
Citizenship Issues:
– Are you STILL a U.S. citizen?
– Are your children U.S. citizens?
– What might FATCA mean for me?
Tax Issues
– Filing U.S. tax returns – what’s involved?
– Filing information returns (FBAR, Form 3520, 5471, etc.)
– Reasonable cause (avoiding penalties)
Financial Planning Issues
– investment products that are cancerous for U.S. citizens
Does it make sense to renounce U.S. citizenship?
– Renouncing U.S. citizenship
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How To Attend …
Once a session has been marked “CONFIRMED” you are free to attend. Each session will have a $20 admission fee (to offset the cost of the room) which is payable in cash at the door. Neither taping nor video of any kind will be permitted.
first published 14 January 2014
Anything less than 1 million hits per day is disappointing. That is the number of so-called US persons in Canada. So yes, be prepared for an increase.
I will be there with bells on!!! F… the tax “experts” and to hell with the IRS!
For so many new readers it’s worth repeating this link on the right side of the page!
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/01/10/press-release-isaac-brock-society/
Caution to U.S. Citizens and U.S./Canada dual citizens who are residents of Canada about the IRS announcement (IR-2012-5) January 9, 2012, regarding Offshore Voluntary Disclosure
Not surprised by the number of hits today. This morning when I tried to check in, I got a message about resource limits exceeded, or something like that. Normally, that would annoy me from a website (especially before finishing my first coffee). This morning it gave me a very big grin. : D
Ya, I am interested to attend a session if there was one in BC.
These information sessions are an excellent idea! So many people haven’t a clue what is about to hit or how to deal with it. As for the idea above for a class action for spouses entrapped in this. YES! My spouse will want to get involved in that if it comes about.
@Petros,@Tricia a lot of ground has been covered in two years. I want to thank everyone here because without you all I think I’d have been completely lost in the woods as to how to proceed and I’d certainly never have had all the information I needed going forward as NO professional I spoke to for the first two years had a clue how to handle our situation. All they did was charge me money and do paperwork with mistakes on them.
@ Brockers….. do we know a discreet lawyer in London England who would do the same? I would be happy to organise the venue!
@crystal london – I would be thrilled to join you in arranging something as well! I live just outside London.
“Some people have taken comfort over the years from the apparent fact Customs & Border Service was not supposed to share information with the IRS. That balloon was pierced for me this week when talking to a colleague at the annual conference of the Society of Trust and Estate Practitioners (STEP) in Toronto. He told me a first-hand account of a client crossing the border, and the customs officer walking him over to an IRS agent at an adjacent desk, who asked why he had not been filing his required U.S. resident tax return.”
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/business/irs-tightens-grip-on-snowbirds–ex-pats-in-canada-96125354.html
@Petros
I do not want to “get into the system”. I am a Canadian citizen from birth and have lived my life in Canada. I do not trust the accountants and I do not trust the IRS. I do not have a SSN. I feel that it is very unjust and morally wrong that I should owe the US any money. I cannot go to a US Consulate to renounce because I have never filed a US tax return and I would expose myself to the USG. I am hoping that the banks will not detect me by making me show a passport or birth certificate (why the issue of our Charter rights not being violated is so important).
I just want to fully educate myself on all the options and I appreciate your warnings about entering programs like the OVDI etc. I may also be confused about the penalties and taxes regarding the FBARs – ie. they tax up to 27% and can penalize the greater of $100,000 or 50% of the maximum balance per account per year for up to 6 years (that is so outrageous for money earned and saved in Canada with Canadian taxes paid) – please clarify if I am mistaken. The accountant said the IRS waives the penalties – did he mean that they will still take the 27%? (if so he conveniently did not mention that)
@ Mr. A, Then don’t get into the system now if you don’t want. There is no reason to unless you maintain assets in the US, in which case the IRS can use those assets as leverage.
FBAR fines are up to 50% per year for six years statute of limitations of the aggregate balance of financial accounts for willful violations. It is $10,000 per account for non-willful violations. But the process of assessing and collecting FBAR fines is costly and time consuming for the US government. They have millions of FBAR forms sitting unprocessed, and that is why they have begun to insist on electronic filing. Now, the IRS cannot assess FBAR fines but must ask the DOJ to prosecute a violator. They may however assess fines for Form 8938–a new form which duplicates the obligations of FBAR but is under their purview and so they may assign fines to their hearts content. But Form 8938 became required only as of 2011. As a result of this, I filed my Schedule B with the words, FIFTH AMENDMENT, on it. But in your case, none of this is necessary because you are a Canadian and you are not in the system. I would not in your case get into the system. As for me, I had been IRS filing for ten years before I relinquished my citizenship and I only moved to Canada in 1995. Thus, I had to end the relationship formally. You don’t have to end a relationship with the IRS if you don’t have one. It’s cleaner that way.
OVDI is a gift to the IRS because they just hand you over your assessment and you pay it or opt out. Nothing could please the IRS more. And you have no reason to trust the IRS. They are lying scoundrels who take money from Canadian widows. Why would you trust a criminal organization like that? The IRS is currently operating as wing of the Democrat party to boot. It is fully politicized, organized crime. I am not exaggerating. This is what they are.
@US in UK, Crystal, Our expert has already indicated that he will likely be able to do a session in UK, if there is adequate interest. You must be careful not to engage a cross-border specialist for such a session; what will make our session better is that the implications of all courses of action will be explored. The cross-border specialists may think that they are doing you a service by helping you get into very expensive compliance options, but I see them as hostile foreign invaders who come to profit from the immoral, illegal and brutal US tax system. I see them as foreign invaders and I am hoping that a time will come when they will no longer be welcome in countries like Canada. They have brazenly opened up office with store front signs like “US tax services”. Why the hell are Canadians accepting this? Why do we allow these people to come to Canada and to create businesses that exploit Canadians?
Do you know what the US Homelanders would do with Canadian tax office if businesses started opening up such services in the US? Probably not good. We need to be less tolerant of this kind of bullshit in Canada.
@george III That account is hearsay. While I would not put it past the US government, I have heard of few cases of this level of abuse. I wonder if anyone has ever seen the IRS desk at a border station. This is the only story I know of, though we do see moves in that direction.
@Mr A
I doubt you would receive an FBAR penalty under your circumstance. According to the IRS’s Internal Revenue Manual:
4.26.16.4.4 (07-01-2008)
Non-Willfulness Penalty
For violations occurring after October 22, 2004, a new penalty applies to individuals as well as businesses. 31 U.S.C. § 5321(a)(5)(A). A penalty, not to exceed $10,000, may be imposed on any person who violates or causes any violation of the FBAR filing and recordkeeping requirements.
The penalty should not be imposed if:
The violation was due to reasonable cause, and
The balance in the account was properly reported on an FBAR. This means that the examiner must receive the delinquent FBARs from the nonfiler in order to avoid application of the non-willfulness penalty.
The ceiling allows the examiner discretion in determining the penalty. Mitigation guidelines have been developed as a guide to examiners in asserting the appropriate non-willfulness penalty amount. See the discussion of the mitigation guidelines below. See Exhibit 4.26.16-1 through 4. As with the FBAR penalty for willful violations, examiners are to use discretion, taking into account the facts and circumstances of each case, in determining whether a warning letter or penalties that are less than the total amounts provided for in the mitigation guidelines are appropriate. The sole purpose for the FBAR penalties is to serve as a tool to promote compliance with respect to the FBAR reporting and recordkeeping requirements.
A filing violation occurs on June 30th of the year following the calendar year to be reported (that is, on the due date for filing the FBAR).
A recordkeeping violation occurs on the date when the records are requested by the IRS examiner if the records are not later provided.
http://www.irs.gov/irm/part4/irm_04-026-016.html
That article dates way back to 2010 and almost looks like scaremongering to me…though wouldn’t be at all surprised if they don’t start randomly placing IRS agents at various border points to keep Expats on their toes.
Damn, what a wonderful idea. Thank you so much, Peter. If there is one in the UK I would be there with bells on.
I’ll be coming to Montreal next month (Feb 13 – 19) if anyone would like to get together in that fair city.
Assuming accidental Americans want out, it would be great to come up with some sort of state diagram showing path to renunciation/relinquishment (that’s the engineer in me).
I don’t know enough about the rules to come up with one, but it would be great if someone who does could come up with one. Something like:
Did you take the oath to Canada yes —-> before x date yes —> you can relinquish. Links to document how to do that.
etc
I think this would be really helpful.
Petros
I remember a story about 20 years ago as well where a lotto winner was arrested when he visited friends in Detroit.
Did you investigate, what I wrote about the stealth way of FATCA using Canadian FFI with American severs/record center? I wrote about it in your personal account.
Can you ask question for people who do not live in the cities listed.
Can You also check about Green card who returned to Canada before 1986 and did not go through formal process? At that time once you left USA for 1 year card was invalid.
@noone and all
My son, who hates talking about FATCA as he is laying low, suggested to me today that maybe a video of a person going through all the steps of renouncing and/or relinquishing. The person first deciding, then the searching, then the paperwork, the visits to accountants/lawyers/counsel .
It can be done in segments as we know this all takes time to do these things.
Just like people responded to Calgary 411 and Gwevil’s CBC interviews it seems to me that people who are in the OMG situation get a lot out of YOU TUBE type demos.
@Petros – I wish there were US expats in the UK who seemed to care about FATCA besides myself and a couple of others. Most of the US expats I’ve met and spoken to look at me like I’m crazy when I bring up the topic of citizenship-based taxation and FATCA. They just don’t want to know and they don’t believe me.
The whole FATCA thing just slid by everyone here in the UK. I think because the UK was the first country to sign up there was no press or fanfare about it at all. So, I don’t know if there would be any interest in a FATCA workshop here. If I thought I could organise something like this myself, I would – but I wouldn’t even know where to begin. So, if anyone in the UK is reading this, and thinks trying to put something together would be worthwhile, then I’m happy to help out with organising a session.
@Victoria – you and I have emailed several times before about trying to organise something in the UK to no avail. *sigh*
noone helpfully suggests:
FWIW, I totally agree that would be a good thing to have. Hopefully there would not be too many branches resulting in an unwieldy monster.
@ Petros
Congratulations on reaching/ surpassing 10,000 page views today. It’s a godsend to have The Isaac Brock Society and Maple Sandbox web sites available. You have helped a lot of people.
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Count me in for the January 25 information session in Toronto.
@ Petrios, bubblebustin, Just Me – thank you for your responses.
Even if all the FBAR penalties are waived, does one still always get taxed to some degree on the assets declared on the FBAR forms? ex. up to 27% It sounds to me like this is the case but I really don’t know.
Mr A.
If you read the terms of the IRS regular OVDP, (not the streamlined) you are penalized 20% accuracy penalty for all past under reported taxes due, and if you meet the IRS criteria, you are given an “in lieu of FBAR penalty” of “only” 27.5% of your highest aggregate balance expressed in USD for all accounts and certain assets for 8 year period. It is NOT insignificant. There are other lower penalties for certain special cases, down to the “benefit” of only paying a 5% penalty for the accidental American living abroad who did NOT know he was a U.S. Citizen.