ADMISSION FEE $20 UNLESS OTHERWISE NOTED (to cover costs)
- Toronto, ON U.S. Citizenship & Young Adults: Navigating The Special Rules Imposed On U.S.Citizens Abroad Sat, June 7, 10 am to 12 noon, Univ of Toronto, St. Michael’s College, Carr Hall, 100 St. Joseph St, MAP NB: $20 individual or $40 for a family of up to four people
Vancouver notes (Feb 22) Updated on March 28 here
Toronto group Saturday, January 25, 2014, Carr Hall
I received the following announcement about information sessions, provided by Toronto based lawyer, for people affected by the USA’s extra-territorial tax overreach which violates Canada’s sovereignty. I think it is a good idea. If you are an alleged US person and you have become aware that the US claims that you should be filing your taxes, please do nothing, do not enter the OVDI program, and above all, do not call a US cross border tax specialist (neither a lawyer nor an accountant), but educate yourself first. The paid experts will scare the hell out of you. There are many options besides allowing a cross border specialist lead you as a lamb to the slaughter.
If you are a Canadian citizen or resident of Canada, you have specific rights and protections that even FATCA cannot revoke. This is why these informational sessions will be useful to you. They will lay out and explore all your options.
Sincerely, Petros
Please note that the speaker would like help finding venues that are inexpensive or free. Perhaps those living in the various cities could ask if a Church or other may be able to offer space. Please keep returning for updates.
Here is the announcement:
Recent CBC Coverage of FATCA and Citizenship-based taxation:
The recent CBC coverage of FATCA and U.S. extraterritorial taxation has raised awareness/concern over the plight of Canadian citizens of U.S. origin. Those who are learning about this for the first time (the OMG moment) will be experiencing a combination of shock, fear, betrayal and more. There will be lots of people interested in understanding the situation and determining whether and/or how to respond.
The following comment appeared on the blog:
Looks like the recent media coverage is creating mass panic in Canada. This might force the Canadian government to issue a statement sooner rather than later. This is good. But I feel bad for the people who are just having their OMG moment. They need some sound advice as to not to make bad decisions which would devastate them financially. While each situation is different, the Canadian government owes it to affected Canadians to provide some guidance and advice and fast. It needs to be official cannot just come from web sites like IBS or Maple Sandbox. Maybe the administrators should add some notes like they can’t be held responsible for actions that people take by following advice on these blogs. This is common sense, but might protect you from lawsuits.
We agree! The important thing it to stay calm! Do NOT panic! Do not react to this situation! Take your time to make the decisions that are appropriate to your situation! Above all else, do NOT even consider entering the Offshore Voluntary Disclosure Program or any other kind of disclosure program unless you are certain that it is right for you (which it almost certainly is NOT)!
Obviously NO blog or web site can provide reliable legal advice. No seminar for the general public can provide reliable legal advice! Your job is simply to begin gathering information and beginning to understand the new reality of U.S. citizenship.
What follows are a list of “Solving The Problems of U.S. Citizenship” information sessions that you can attend, for a nominal fee and anonymously! The sessions are NOT intended to provide legal advice. But, they are intended to help you identify the issues that may apply to your situation.
Do NOT engage the services of an accountant or lawyer before equipping yourself with some basic knowledge!
Solving The Problems of U.S. Citizenship – Exploratory Sessions
The topics covered are designed to alert you to issues and are NOT offered as legal or accounting advice specific to your situation.
They include:
Citizenship Issues:
– Are you STILL a U.S. citizen?
– Are your children U.S. citizens?
– What might FATCA mean for me?
Tax Issues
– Filing U.S. tax returns – what’s involved?
– Filing information returns (FBAR, Form 3520, 5471, etc.)
– Reasonable cause (avoiding penalties)
Financial Planning Issues
– investment products that are cancerous for U.S. citizens
Does it make sense to renounce U.S. citizenship?
– Renouncing U.S. citizenship
____________________________________________________________________
How To Attend …
Once a session has been marked “CONFIRMED” you are free to attend. Each session will have a $20 admission fee (to offset the cost of the room) which is payable in cash at the door. Neither taping nor video of any kind will be permitted.
first published 14 January 2014
@PYYJ,
I’m not worried about being grabbed off a plane, or dragged from my house, but I do worry about my account data being handed over by my own government to the IRS.
Why do you think IRS refused to give Canada a break on Canadian residents in the IGA? Do you think that when they find out what we have in the bank, that they won’t want to do anything with that information?
Many of us, pre-FATCA would never have thought that Canada would willingly hand over the banking information of Canadians with a US birthplace. IMHO, based on how easily they have betrayed us by signing an IGA, what is to stop them from assisting the IRS in collecting penalties – just because they SAY they won’t? Do you trust the Canadian government to protect our gold after signing a deal with the devil? I don’t, and I think anyone who does is a dreamer.
@PYYJ,
Regarding any protections we think we might have, with regard to collection of penalties and taxes, IMHO, it is all an illusion – just like our ‘privacy laws’ which apparently don’t actually protect our privacy ‘rights’, and perhaps even our Charter of Rights (time will tell us how this one plays out once the courts get involved).
@WhiteKat
after having seen up close how local politics functions i know that the squeeky wheel gets the grease. by extrapolating it has to be the same through all levels of gov’t that the more you are in there faces and pestering them all they want to do is get you off of their backs.
so yes it is “fighting” for what we think is righting a wrong!!
@WhiteKat I apologize if this is a stupid question, but what exactly do you mean by “get out legitimately”?
@mettleman To be clear, you chose not to declare that you renounce? Since you don’t plan on ever traveling to the States again, I wonder why not do it and protect yourself from future obligation? Is it because we should not trust that the Canadian government will protect its citizens from the IRS collecting on past debts and penalties, so best to stay totally under the radar? (I am still trying to figure out what, if any, protections are afforded Canadian citizens vs residents. For instance I have read that the government will not collect from citizens on behalf of the IRS or permit the IRS access to citizens’ bank accounts, and yet if this were true why would citizens be so afraid?)
@PYYJ I appreciate what you wrote and will go back and re-read whenever I feel my chest starting to tighten up. 🙂
At the moment the anxiety comes and goes as I attempt to suss out the facts. I can’t seem to shake the feeling like I’m a sitting duck until my Canadian citizenship card comes through (been a year and I’m still waiting). Unlike some of you, I do have a [!%expletive!$] U.S. passport.
Not that having that citizenship card card will be any great relief (as I learned here). As I indicate above there is still much that remains unclear to me.
What is certain is how incredibly unbelievable all of this is. No offense to those who love the homeland, but as far as I’m concerned I dodged a giantass bullet when my folks decided to move to Canada in the 70s. All of this nonsense just reinforces my negative feelings toward the U.S.
@WhiteKat:
Ah, I think you mostly answered my question to @mettleman.
@FromtheWilderness
Maybe Jacobson told us to sit tight so the IRS could get a better fix on us! I wonder how Elizabeth May is feeling about the ambassador’s assurances that her concerns are being taken seriously now that the US has proceeded in forcing FATCA upon Canada. Jacobson played some of us like cheap violins – and a few even provided him cover while he made his exit.
@PYYJ
I think you are on to something.
Just for context, the US today is probably very different from what the US may be in the future, 10 or 20 or 50 years from now.
The US government is $17 trillion in debt; an almost incomprehensible amount.
It takes an annual payment of 1 billion a year for the next 17,000 years to discharge this debt – assuming it was a zero interest / principal-only loan (which it is not). The 2014 legislation to raise the US debt limit ceiling and enable the US government to continue to borrow money to service this debt did nothing to address the fundamental causes of its deficit.
Contrary to popular belief, China is not the largest holder of US government debt; it is the largest foreign holder.
US government agencies – notably social security and the federal reserve bank – hold more than half of all US debt. They are their own best customer.
@Wren “Is it because we should not trust that the Canadian government will protect its citizens from the IRS collecting on past debts and penalties, so best to stay totally under the radar? ”
yup 110% my advice was to DO NOTHING to bring any attention to yourself “since you are fairly deeply burried the chances of being caught are slim”
it already is an uncomfortable feeling waiting for the other shoe to drop but it is something i am going to have to learn to live with if i want to get on with my life….waiting for the knock on the door to come….
but by not traveling to the states and not standing up and waving my hand that “here i am come get me” may be just enough to dodge this thing called fatca…..unfortunatly only time will tell….
@Wren,
No problem; its not a stupid question. What I meant by getting out legitimately, is to renounce and come into full compliancy as opposed to just renouncing in order to have a CLN to show your bank so that they won’t report your bank accounts. We’ve had a lot of discussions about that here with some people planning to go the renounce, but not comply route, whereas others think that if you renounce you should go all the way and comply as well in order to be safely out of the cross-hairs.
@WhiteKat
“We’ve had a lot of discussions about that here with some people planning to go the renounce, but not comply route, whereas others think that if you renounce you should go all the way and comply as well in order to be safely out of the cross-hairs.”
ergo the entire problem of renouncing….you have come up on the radar and then to not take it to the end of being fully compliant you are that hanging over your head and your only option after that is to never travel to the states again…..so if you are going to renounce and not be compliant and not travel to the states…..why then renounce and let them know who you are????
complicated situation this one eh? and full of catch 22’s and gotcha’s at every twist and turn…..tom clancy could not have written a better one…..
@mettleman
Given your circumstances that sounds entirely sensible. I’m not sure that would be feasible for me. Never filed, but I do have a passport. Pretty sure that puts a pretty big target on my forehead.
@WhiteKat
Thanks. It’s starting to look like my best option is to quietly wait for my citizenship card, then renounce and hope the Canadian government protects me from any accumulated $$ owed to the IRS. If my info is correct, I should owe no actual taxes (because I don’t make a lot of money) just a ridiculous amount in penalties (which I can’t afford because I don’t make a lot of money).
That said, I’m more worried about my mom. She’s a senior living on CPP, a Canadian citizen who never renounced. Are they going to try to collect $80K+ in penalties from her?
It’s all so messed up.
Thanks, everyone.
@mettleman,
Yup, time will tell. Maybe if we whine and bitch loud enough (I’m good at that…lol), we might even be able to get some sort of real amnesty. Look at how much less harsh the various OVDPs have gotten overtime.
@mettleman
I believe the only reason to renounce and not become compliant is to have the coveted CLN to show your bank. Or to give the US the one-finger salute. Or both.
@bubblebustin “I believe the only reason to renounce and not become compliant is to have the coveted CLN to show your bank”
possibly right however the lawyer i spoke to said that based on my circumstances of getting my citizenship in 1980 if the bank were to as me to sign a w8 or 9 that i should go ahead and sign it certifing that i am no an american in that i renounced my american citizenship when i took out canadian citizenship 34 years ago.
as much as i REALLY want to come out and give america the one finger salute i think staying burried deeply is a much better option given how much information they are going to be getting and attempting to sort through all of it is going to be cumbersome at best…..
time will tell which route is/was the better to have taken i guess
@wren a passport may not flag you at all. That’s a state department item and the IRS and the state department don’t share info yet. Can you attend one of the information sessions? The lawyer who conducts them could give you some direction. His site is http://www.citizenshipsolutions.ca
@Mettleman, bubblebustin, Wren, and PYYJ
I sent this email to Flaherty just before the IGA was signed. I am thinking he may need a reminder. Perhaps one of you might want to have a go at it, if you agree with my suggestions. I am sure he (or the staff that handle his emails and letters) are getting tired of me. I suspect that actual letters get more attention, but who knows. I have gotten a couple email replies and one letter from the Finance Dept. for all my troubles.
Dear Honourable James Flaherty,
If the Canadian government insists on signing an IGA with USA for FATCA (and I hope it does not), I would like to make two suggestions to help ease the burden for those Canadians with ‘US person’ status who have recently woken up (or soon will) to the fact that they are delinquent US tax payers.
First, work with IRS to devise a much less restrictive ‘amnesty’ program than the latest ‘Streamlined Compliance program’. For example, completely remove the $1500 threshold for any of the 3 years of tax compliance (I know rumour has it that the limit is not firm), drop the 20-odd questions used to determine if a US person is ‘high risk’ or not. In other words if you are a Canadian, living in Canada, you are not high risk no matter how rich or poor you are, or how much tax you might owe (for example, you sold your house in Vancouver and cleared over 250K in capital gains, thus surpassing the $1500 threshold by a huge margin).
Second, compliance costs for back filing US tax returns and FBARS can really add up, particularly, if you have TFSA’s, multiple RRSPs, multiple RESPs, multiple Canadian mutual funds (the dreaded PFICs!), etc. Costs start at the 300 mark (for the simplest of simple), and fees are often on a per form basis (every Canadian mutual fund has a form for example). A yearly compliance fee for an ignorant US person living a life as a normal Canadian, can easily hit 2k or more. Multiply that by 3 years worth of US returns and 6 years of FBARS (required in the current Streamlined program) and that can really hit a middle-class budget hard. My proposal, is to allow a complete write-off against a US person’s Canadian tax obligations for the cost of coming into full US compliance, not a deduction – a WRITE-OFF.
I feel that both these suggestions, would result in many more Canadians with ‘US person’ status, coming forward with much less trepidation, in attempts at satisfying the USA’s insistence on taxing those who live and earn outside its borders. I also suspect, that the vast majority of those who come into compliance under these circumstances, will shortly thereafter formally renounce their US citizenship.
Sincerely,
Kathleen XXXXX
It seems like we now have a new class of Canadian citizens — Closet Americans.
Don’t ask, don’t tell. What a terrible way to live.
I gave the one finger salute by renouncing — it felt good.
@Wren, Gwevil gave you a good suggestion. Can you make it to one of the info sessions? That will help put your particular situation and options in a clearer light (and that of your mom’s). Whatever you do, do not rush into anything, and do not allow lawyers and accountants to scare you into renouncing and complying without considering other options; take your time, and don’t make a move until you are sure it is the best one for you.
I’m not sure if this is the right place to post this or if its already been posted, but CNNMoney has a blurb about FATCA and Americans giving up their citizenship. The interesting part of it is that you can email the author Sophia Yan sophia.yan@cnn.com and tell her your story in regard to being american and owing back taxes. Let’s get the word out …
http://money.cnn.com/2014/02/17/pf/taxes/citizenship-taxes/index.html
To all of those who advised that I sit tight: Oh I sure will! Even if I had it in my head to make a move of some kind, there’s no way I’d do anything without that citizenship card safely in hand.
@GwEvil @WhiteKat
Sadly, no info sessions in Alberta. 🙁
@GwEvil
You know, I did not know that. I just assumed State Dept and IRS were sharing info, but I suppose if they had been they might have nailed my ass by now (for all the gazillions it would be worth to them /s). Thank you.
@WildKat
That’s an awesome letter. I would be happy to plagiarize your excellent ideas in a letter to Flaherty, if that is what you are suggesting. 🙂
@FromTheWilderness:
Ugh. Well said. My deeply ingrained sense of personal responsibility (my Canadian-ness? :)) won’t allow me to hold U.S. citizens who haven’t filed (including myself) entirely blameless – in my case, as I grew up I just did what every Canadian did and never questioned it, never had a reason to until now – but I feel especially sad for those who asked the right questions and learned the rules and *still* they are afraid. I came across one woman on Twitter who relinquished in the early 70s but she won’t go to a consulate for her CLN because she’s scared of what might happen. I haven’t had the big talk with my mother, yet, but I’m pretty sure once she gets wind of it her instinctive reaction will be fear and mistrust, also.
@ WhiteKat
None of those tweaks would work for me I’m afraid. Look, the US gov’t has shown it has no intention of making it easier for the “deemed uncompliant taxpayer lambs” to “catch up” and it is gleefully watching the pile of lambs stack up because their fleeces just get thicker and more profitable for the US treasury. The Canadian gov’t had and still has no intention to obtain significant carve-outs for anything other than its precious financial institutions. I also don’t want to see people paying big bucks to a compliance condor and then getting a write-off at the expense of Canadian taxpayers who are not affected by FATCA. The FATCA is ALL wrong and I have to continue to push for it to be ALL rejected, not bits and bobs of it.
I sent my Finance Canada submission today and e-mails to the opposition leaders (they are ALL on notice that I will be watching their FATCA IGA responses and votes) and all the Conservative MPs plus the PM have already received my “will not vote for you ever again” e-mail. I don’t expect anything other than auto-replies, if that, but this time I’m not going to write to Flaherty — perhaps later if I think of something brilliant — but that’s another thing that is unlikely to happen. Meanwhile I have a subtle “sauve qui peut” strategy and a drastic “sauve qui peut” strategy (calgary411 knows that one) and I will keep fighting, doing what I can with my limited abilities and energy. Perhaps the Haida Nation would be willing to provide us with one of their Haida Gwaii Islands so that we can establish a FATCA free, independent colony for exiled aliens (various mixtures of Canadian and USP).
Sorry, @WhiteKat. I promise I wasn’t being presumptuous when I called you @WildKat. 🙂
@WhiteKat
The reason we are having this problem trying to guess what Canada might do re measures to protect 5 million affected people IN CANADA is because we have expectations that our constitutional lawyers will speak up. I’m not holding my breath much on this because I don’t think they have the ‘balls’ to do anything or have been bought off handsomely. Frankly I don’t see too many countries standing up for what’s fair in this matter. 3/4ths of the world has not signed on and of those that did half have not signed it into law. Fatca is not law in Canada yet but I don’t expect our politicians to kill it when its up for debate in Parliament. Though I’m totally compliant, I’ve had enough of our way of life and if I can find some country that still values human rights and is not in the US sphere then I’m outta here.
And furthermore WhiteKat, buy gold now and hide it safely outside of a bank. It is legal to own and only when you sell it (why would anyone do that?) you pay gains tax. BUY .999 only and there is no HST on it. Anything under .945 you pay HST. Don’t buy it all at once but rather take different price points so as to average your cost. It’s volatile and can drop 20.00 suddenly and then recover in a blink of an eye. Buy it and ignore the short term volatility, you are buying it in case of a financial disaster not to make profits. 25- 50% of a persons liquid assets should be in gold in my opinion
Actually, I think ‘wildkat’ works better 🙂
@FromTheWilderness
No.. not closet Americans.. Closet US persons… & U are so right… People use to say.. I got this.. I got that… for American.. Now is… Shhhh… don’t let no one know… Move over… there are too many of us in this closet…