ADMISSION FEE $20 UNLESS OTHERWISE NOTED (to cover costs)
- Toronto, ON U.S. Citizenship & Young Adults: Navigating The Special Rules Imposed On U.S.Citizens Abroad Sat, June 7, 10 am to 12 noon, Univ of Toronto, St. Michael’s College, Carr Hall, 100 St. Joseph St, MAP NB: $20 individual or $40 for a family of up to four people
Vancouver notes (Feb 22) Updated on March 28 here
Toronto group Saturday, January 25, 2014, Carr Hall
I received the following announcement about information sessions, provided by Toronto based lawyer, for people affected by the USA’s extra-territorial tax overreach which violates Canada’s sovereignty. I think it is a good idea. If you are an alleged US person and you have become aware that the US claims that you should be filing your taxes, please do nothing, do not enter the OVDI program, and above all, do not call a US cross border tax specialist (neither a lawyer nor an accountant), but educate yourself first. The paid experts will scare the hell out of you. There are many options besides allowing a cross border specialist lead you as a lamb to the slaughter.
If you are a Canadian citizen or resident of Canada, you have specific rights and protections that even FATCA cannot revoke. This is why these informational sessions will be useful to you. They will lay out and explore all your options.
Sincerely, Petros
Please note that the speaker would like help finding venues that are inexpensive or free. Perhaps those living in the various cities could ask if a Church or other may be able to offer space. Please keep returning for updates.
Here is the announcement:
Recent CBC Coverage of FATCA and Citizenship-based taxation:
The recent CBC coverage of FATCA and U.S. extraterritorial taxation has raised awareness/concern over the plight of Canadian citizens of U.S. origin. Those who are learning about this for the first time (the OMG moment) will be experiencing a combination of shock, fear, betrayal and more. There will be lots of people interested in understanding the situation and determining whether and/or how to respond.
The following comment appeared on the blog:
Looks like the recent media coverage is creating mass panic in Canada. This might force the Canadian government to issue a statement sooner rather than later. This is good. But I feel bad for the people who are just having their OMG moment. They need some sound advice as to not to make bad decisions which would devastate them financially. While each situation is different, the Canadian government owes it to affected Canadians to provide some guidance and advice and fast. It needs to be official cannot just come from web sites like IBS or Maple Sandbox. Maybe the administrators should add some notes like they can’t be held responsible for actions that people take by following advice on these blogs. This is common sense, but might protect you from lawsuits.
We agree! The important thing it to stay calm! Do NOT panic! Do not react to this situation! Take your time to make the decisions that are appropriate to your situation! Above all else, do NOT even consider entering the Offshore Voluntary Disclosure Program or any other kind of disclosure program unless you are certain that it is right for you (which it almost certainly is NOT)!
Obviously NO blog or web site can provide reliable legal advice. No seminar for the general public can provide reliable legal advice! Your job is simply to begin gathering information and beginning to understand the new reality of U.S. citizenship.
What follows are a list of “Solving The Problems of U.S. Citizenship” information sessions that you can attend, for a nominal fee and anonymously! The sessions are NOT intended to provide legal advice. But, they are intended to help you identify the issues that may apply to your situation.
Do NOT engage the services of an accountant or lawyer before equipping yourself with some basic knowledge!
Solving The Problems of U.S. Citizenship – Exploratory Sessions
The topics covered are designed to alert you to issues and are NOT offered as legal or accounting advice specific to your situation.
They include:
Citizenship Issues:
– Are you STILL a U.S. citizen?
– Are your children U.S. citizens?
– What might FATCA mean for me?
Tax Issues
– Filing U.S. tax returns – what’s involved?
– Filing information returns (FBAR, Form 3520, 5471, etc.)
– Reasonable cause (avoiding penalties)
Financial Planning Issues
– investment products that are cancerous for U.S. citizens
Does it make sense to renounce U.S. citizenship?
– Renouncing U.S. citizenship
____________________________________________________________________
How To Attend …
Once a session has been marked “CONFIRMED” you are free to attend. Each session will have a $20 admission fee (to offset the cost of the room) which is payable in cash at the door. Neither taping nor video of any kind will be permitted.
first published 14 January 2014
PYYJ. Can we quote you at maple sandbox?
@PYYJ, I can’t disagree with your advice to Wren, But I am not so sure I agree with your assessment of the intent of FATCA. If the intent of FATCA was to go after US residents, why was the law not actually written to just go after US residents? Why was Canada not able to get an exclusion for Canadians resident in Canada if the intent was to round up only the HOMELAND tax cheats?
@WhiteKat, why does this particular incident of absurd over-kill on the part of the USA cause you worry more than all the previous ones? If I were following these things closely (and thank god, I was not) the imposition of the FBAR rules and the huge civil penalties associated with same would have been a far bigger red flag. And yet, so far, the storm troopers have yet to drag any of us diasporans off a plane for our tax crimes. Could this be the time it finally starts happening? Maybe so. But, if the goal is to once and finally shake us diasporans out of the tree, they won’t go the expense of dragging us all off to jail. They’ll drag a couple off planes, make sure it’s all over the news, and then open up the gate for all us millions to go through processing and pay our $2.50 over to the Treasury. That’s when I’ll start getting my returns in order (or, more probably, finally take my trip to the consulate and swear of travelling to the USA). Until then, I’ll keep up on the news, but try not to worry overmuch.
@PYYJ,
You remind me of how a particular Brocker used to talk. I believe this person had some kind of a ‘psych’ background and thought we were all overreacting here. Since then, my understanding is that he/she has become a fairly active FATCA fighter.
@PYYJ,
Everyone’s situation and risk tolerance varies. Many regulars to this site, have ‘complied’, some have went on to renounce, and some like myself are hunkering down for the storm but taking steps to ensure our bank accounts are not reported to USA. Regardless of our individual decisions, many of us are actively fighting the good fight as opposed to doing nothing, and letting the powers that be dictate our freedoms. Your choice.
@WHiteKat
You are right. So many of us with different situations and different reasons to different things..
we are definitely not one size fits all. All I know is I am sure glad to have found IBS..
@WhiteKat, right you are, the number of different situations is quite mind-boggling, and each situation and personality gives rise to its own unique evaluation of risk and reward. In my own case, and this moment, the risk of action feels greater than the risk of inaction, so I wait and watch. Perhaps things will get better, or at least, not get worse. IBS and MapleSandbox have been invaluable to me in coming to my personal equilibrium, so thanks to all who are compiling the news here and there, and helping inform others. But something brings me back here to check the news, from time to time, so you are right to perceive that my equanimity is perhaps not so perfect as I might have you believe.
@PYYJ
We, who have been following FATCA for almost 4 years now, thought at first that the intent was to catch homelanders, but after hearing Geithner’s own words…that
http://bit.ly/XA459V
We have come to our senses and acknowledged that FATCA was much broader than the narrow homeland mission.
It became clear to me, after hearing OECD plans for common reporting standards, and seeing their enthusiasm for FATCA when it came out, that a global GATCA was the Bigger mission. Was that the intent of Congress? I don’t think so, but since they didn’t know they voted for it, buried in the stealth closet of the Hire Act, I don’t think we can make a meaningful statement about intent.
Bottomline, as I keep saying over and over and over, is somewhere along the way, a core group of ideologues, or FATCAnatics have been determined to make FATCA the model (gold standard Robert Stack says) for a global GATCA and it would appear that is just what is happening. This is NOT crazy conspiracy talk, it just just the reality of the evolution of FATCA when captured by a cored group of ideologues.
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2014/02/13/gatca-is-born-at-the-oecd-and-fatca-is-the-proud-father/
For me, the difference between all that earlier overreach by the USG and the IRS and this new FATCA overreach is that there are now IGA’s signed, making my country a colluder with them.
Before that, I didn’t plan to comply with their bullshit laws and I still don’t, but now I have to deal with what is going on inside Canada and that is what makes me particularly PISSED and ready for a real FIGHT!
@all re change in Vancouver venue for Feb 22
I was instructed by our speaker yesterday to wait until further notice to change venues. Sorry to keep you all hanging. Keep watching here for any changes.
@Just Me This is where different perceptions of risk and tolerance come in, since I don’t particularly care what they know as long as it doesn’t cause me to be targeted for harassment. Simple yield analysis dictates that pain will be inflicted first and foremost on USA residents simply because they are accessible, and the IRS has lots of leverage. Non-residents with actual tax liabilities (residents of low tax countries) would be a potential future target, but we’ll see how that goes. They do live far from the long arm of the law, after all. All us Canadian diasporans whose only real crime is serial non-filing fall pretty far down on the list of valuable targets. All this subject to revision the first time one of us is hauled off a plane, of course.
@PYYJ…
I think you are thinking too narrowly in terms of impact and reach of governments. You are FATCA focused, but FATCA has started the momentum for a global GATCA. For a few years, it was just in preparation, but it has now launched. That is how FATCA IMPACTs EVERYONE, not just U.S. Persons living in Canada.
I know a lot of folks think, that might be ok, because it is residency based, but it is actually much worse in terms of personal liberties and privacy which in this facebook age seems like such a quaint concepts.
I would say to you, you SHOULD CARE “what they know”, as it is via their knowledge is how governments exert CONTROL. Maybe today, you agree with the government and that knowledge doesn’t bother you, but tomorrow is a different story. This movement towards Total Global Information Awareness and collecting of all our data is an insidious one that we have become all too passive about, and FATCA/GATCA just makes it total. When they have the breath of Financial data on you that they want, then you are at their mercy. That is just the way it is.
When GwEvil says
@PYYJ
Just saw this…
Brian at Tax Connections..
FATCA Is Old News… Here Comes GATCA
@Just Me Brian at Tax Connections is clearly a self-interested fear monger, “We recommend speaking with an experienced lawyer or accountant well versed in IRS offshore reporting rules”. And leaving that aside, since the only OECD country lunatic to tract expat accounts as if they were “foreign” is the USA, FACTA is as bad as it gets. If Canada wants to track down my extra-territorial accounts via GATCA (oh wait it doesn’t exist yet except in Brian at Tax Connections fertile imagination), whoops, I don’t have any, so end of story.
@PYYJ.,…
Brain is doing what all circular 230 attorneys do with the ending statement. That said, don’t shut down your brain because he too sees what clearly is coming from the OECD announcement and the G-20 support of it.
It is NOT a fertile imagination, it has lite up all the Linkedin groups and widely being reported.
I assume you have read the OECD annoucement straight from their web site…
http://www.oecd.org/ctp/exchange-of-tax-information/Automatic-Exchange-Financial-Account-Information-Common-Reporting-Standard.pdf
and where is what your own government says from FAQs re the IGA Canada negotiated with the US: http://www.fin.gc.ca/afc/faq/fatca-eng.asp
Will Canada be signing similar agreements with other countries?
generally excluded from the debate is the surveillance potential built into the FATCA law. The IRS can share the information gathered under FATCA with US intelligence and law enforcement agencies. Data gathered from foreign sources and derived information is not subject to constitutional protection. This introduces unrestricted domestic spying without any oversight. Considering many of us have family, classmates and colleagues in the US. Using 100 such associations for simplicity, the standard three hops by the vorpal bunnies at the NSA can generate 1,000,000 (100**3) persons of interest for homeland surveillance.
@PYYJ
These guys at Tax Justice want more Controls, not less…
To Translate…. AEOI = CRS = GATCA All the same thing. All born out of FATCA IGA vision, not FATCA itself, as it had NO reciprocity promises.
Tax Justice Network responds to OECD AEoI Report
Feb 13, 2014 – Today the OECD presented a major report on a new global standard for countries and tax havens to exchange information with each other, a new tool for fighting the scourge of tax evasion. The report contains many positive elements but falls far short of what the world’s citizens desperately need – especially citizens in poorer countries. Notably:
The OECD plan is likely to result in developing countries being excluded because they are expected to provide ‘reciprocal’ information exchange, even though pretty much all active tax havens are in rich countries, and many developing countries would need to sacrifice scarce resources to set up the arrangements to collect the information to be exchanged.
The OECD standard, while technically useful, contains loopholes that can easily be, and must be, closed.
Freeports, safety deposit boxes and other kinds of storage mechanism are excluded.
There are no sanctions for recalcitrant jurisdictions.
@PYYJ
For your reading pleasure on GATCA. Linkedin blogs lite up.. and these are just 6 from ‘fertile imaginations’, I guess, in blogs that are unprotected so you can read them…
http://www.linkedin.com/groups/OECD-Global-Automatic-Information-Exchange-3731046.S.5840448842763366402?qid=9250627a-e58a-4dec-9313-e3cfa2872525&trk=groups_items_see_more-0-b-ttl
http://www.linkedin.com/groups/OECD-Common-Reporting-Standard-3731046.S.5840449024938770432?qid=9250627a-e58a-4dec-9313-e3cfa2872525&trk=groups_items_see_more-0-b-ttl
http://www.linkedin.com/groups/OECD-delivers-new-single-global-3731046.S.5840448842763366403?qid=fb216406-8ff6-4238-a18b-a5b7b4255de3&trk=groups_most_recent-0-b-ttl&goback=%2Egmr_3731046
http://www.linkedin.com/groups/OECD-Releases-New-Global-Common-3731046.S.5840449024938770434?qid=fb216406-8ff6-4238-a18b-a5b7b4255de3&trk=groups_most_recent-0-b-ttl&goback=%2Egmr_3731046
http://www.linkedin.com/groups/Beyond-FATCA-OECD-Takes-Combating-3731046.S.5840448842763366400?qid=9250627a-e58a-4dec-9313-e3cfa2872525&trk=groups_items_see_more-0-b-ttl
http://www.linkedin.com/groups/OECD-has-just-released-socalled-3731046.S.5840445887553236996?qid=9250627a-e58a-4dec-9313-e3cfa2872525&trk=groups_items_see_more-0-b-ttl
And… PYYJ
One other fertile imagination. Allison Christians..
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2014/02/14/oecds-plan-for-global-tax-info-exchange-could-be-deja-vu-all-over-again/
USA falls to 46th place
http://rsf.org/index2014/en-index2014.php#
@PYY
You sound like the former US Ambassador to Canada David Jacobson: “just sit tight.” He now works for Bank of Montreal. So let us see how BMO treats persons with US indicia while knowing that the US can now withhold 30% of its payments. BMO has extensive operations in the US?
http://business.financialpost.com/2013/05/21/bmo-taps-outspoken-u-s-ambassador-to-canada-for-vice-chairman-role/
Perhaps you haven’t noticed what has been happening in Europe – bank accounts closed, mortgages refused etc, all because somebody has US indicia somewhere in their records.
And what will happen once their names get reported to Uncle Sam? And they eventually will. So why sit in front of a freight train waiting for it maybe to stop?
If people want to protect themselves from getting run over, now is the time to step out of the way.
since finding out about fatca a few months ago my plan was to renounce and not be tax compliant as i knew i could not afford the fee’s to become compliant (or the potential penalties) and i am horrible at doing my personal taxes.
after speaking to my accountant and well respected tax lawyer my thoughts have changed for now anyways. i have nothing in any of my bank accounts to indicate my americanness, i have zero ties to the states anymore and in 1980 when i took out canadian citizenship i was told i renounced my american citizenship……i am a canadian end of story….these people said right now the worst thing i could do is bring my self to the attention of the gov’t so just stay burried…….oh and in no uncertain terms will i ever be traveling to the us of a ever again…..such is the price for my decision….
it does not mean i am going to quit this fight and will be trying to inform as many americans in canada. just this past weekend i was talking to an aquaintance and he had his omg moment. he could not believe this was happening. he is now taking steps to arm himself and make his decison as to what route he will be taking.
as has been said before each and everyone of us have our own unique story and set of reasons for doing whatever our choice is and in the end it is only the person who makes the choice that has to live with the results of that choice. i am certain that each persons choice is not one that is taken lightly.
i know for myself i struggle with the fact about never going to the states ever again as i live close to the border and have had some great times on vacations down there but given my choice (to never go to the states) the rest of my province and country is going to benifit from me spending my vacation dollars at home and rather south of the border.
Thanks for sharing your decision, mettleman. That any of this is happening is absurd. That our country stands by and lets it happen, is a travesty. (Or, at least in my mind.) I’m glad you made a decision for yourself. Please stay in the fight for others.
@Mettleman, your approach sounds reasonable. I have bounced back and forth, and depending on how things pan out, could change my mind again. For now, like you, I am sticking with the ‘stay low’ but ‘fight with tooth and nails’ approach.
One of the amazing things about this whole mess, is how people have come together to help those of us who are still caught in it. Many, perhaps most, of the active fighters, are either cleanly out of the system (although whether one can ever be considered to be cleanly out is debatable), or they have the paperwork required to get out; yet on they fight. They are an inspiration to me, and if/when I ever do decide to ‘come clean’ and get out legitimately, I will continue to fight along side with them.
@Mettleman,
When I say ‘fight’ it sounds radical, but ‘fighting’ can be something as simple as telling people you know about FATCA, or writing letters to your MP, etc. To sit back, do absolutely nothing, carry on as usual, and assume our government will protect our rights, in the end, will result in getting exactly what we deserve – nothing.