ADMISSION FEE $20 UNLESS OTHERWISE NOTED (to cover costs)
- Toronto, ON U.S. Citizenship & Young Adults: Navigating The Special Rules Imposed On U.S.Citizens Abroad Sat, June 7, 10 am to 12 noon, Univ of Toronto, St. Michael’s College, Carr Hall, 100 St. Joseph St, MAP NB: $20 individual or $40 for a family of up to four people
Vancouver notes (Feb 22) Updated on March 28 here
Toronto group Saturday, January 25, 2014, Carr Hall
I received the following announcement about information sessions, provided by Toronto based lawyer, for people affected by the USA’s extra-territorial tax overreach which violates Canada’s sovereignty. I think it is a good idea. If you are an alleged US person and you have become aware that the US claims that you should be filing your taxes, please do nothing, do not enter the OVDI program, and above all, do not call a US cross border tax specialist (neither a lawyer nor an accountant), but educate yourself first. The paid experts will scare the hell out of you. There are many options besides allowing a cross border specialist lead you as a lamb to the slaughter.
If you are a Canadian citizen or resident of Canada, you have specific rights and protections that even FATCA cannot revoke. This is why these informational sessions will be useful to you. They will lay out and explore all your options.
Sincerely, Petros
Please note that the speaker would like help finding venues that are inexpensive or free. Perhaps those living in the various cities could ask if a Church or other may be able to offer space. Please keep returning for updates.
Here is the announcement:
Recent CBC Coverage of FATCA and Citizenship-based taxation:
The recent CBC coverage of FATCA and U.S. extraterritorial taxation has raised awareness/concern over the plight of Canadian citizens of U.S. origin. Those who are learning about this for the first time (the OMG moment) will be experiencing a combination of shock, fear, betrayal and more. There will be lots of people interested in understanding the situation and determining whether and/or how to respond.
The following comment appeared on the blog:
Looks like the recent media coverage is creating mass panic in Canada. This might force the Canadian government to issue a statement sooner rather than later. This is good. But I feel bad for the people who are just having their OMG moment. They need some sound advice as to not to make bad decisions which would devastate them financially. While each situation is different, the Canadian government owes it to affected Canadians to provide some guidance and advice and fast. It needs to be official cannot just come from web sites like IBS or Maple Sandbox. Maybe the administrators should add some notes like they can’t be held responsible for actions that people take by following advice on these blogs. This is common sense, but might protect you from lawsuits.
We agree! The important thing it to stay calm! Do NOT panic! Do not react to this situation! Take your time to make the decisions that are appropriate to your situation! Above all else, do NOT even consider entering the Offshore Voluntary Disclosure Program or any other kind of disclosure program unless you are certain that it is right for you (which it almost certainly is NOT)!
Obviously NO blog or web site can provide reliable legal advice. No seminar for the general public can provide reliable legal advice! Your job is simply to begin gathering information and beginning to understand the new reality of U.S. citizenship.
What follows are a list of “Solving The Problems of U.S. Citizenship” information sessions that you can attend, for a nominal fee and anonymously! The sessions are NOT intended to provide legal advice. But, they are intended to help you identify the issues that may apply to your situation.
Do NOT engage the services of an accountant or lawyer before equipping yourself with some basic knowledge!
Solving The Problems of U.S. Citizenship – Exploratory Sessions
The topics covered are designed to alert you to issues and are NOT offered as legal or accounting advice specific to your situation.
They include:
Citizenship Issues:
– Are you STILL a U.S. citizen?
– Are your children U.S. citizens?
– What might FATCA mean for me?
Tax Issues
– Filing U.S. tax returns – what’s involved?
– Filing information returns (FBAR, Form 3520, 5471, etc.)
– Reasonable cause (avoiding penalties)
Financial Planning Issues
– investment products that are cancerous for U.S. citizens
Does it make sense to renounce U.S. citizenship?
– Renouncing U.S. citizenship
____________________________________________________________________
How To Attend …
Once a session has been marked “CONFIRMED” you are free to attend. Each session will have a $20 admission fee (to offset the cost of the room) which is payable in cash at the door. Neither taping nor video of any kind will be permitted.
first published 14 January 2014
U.S. Expatriation Act of 1868: “Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That any declaration, instruction, opinion, order, or decision of any officers of this government which denies, restricts, impairs, or questions the right of expatriation, is hereby declared inconsistent with the fundamental principles of this government.”
East German Constitution of 1949 stated:
Article 10, Para. 3: “Every citizen is entitled to emigrate. This right can only be limited by laws of the republic.”
In spite of the right to emigration being enshrined in the East Germany constitution, there were severe restrictions on emigration, such as the erection of the Berlin Wall in 1961. The East German Constitution of 1968 was updated to read:
Article 32: “Every citizen of the German Democratic Republic has the right, within the legal framework, of freedom of movement within the borders of the German Democratic Republic.”
The U.S. Expatriation Act of 1868 no longer corresponds to actual practice and should likely be revised. A new Act could borrow from the East German Constitution of 1968, substituting “USA” for “German Democratic Republic”. 🙂
@publius
You’re doing a project on all of this?
@Publius, I’m looking foward to reading your project!
Me too!
@expat in the uk; @swisspinoy; @bubblebustin, @trisha
Glad to hear of your interest in where all this policy comes from. There is a big emphasis now in the UK on doing research of public importance, so I decided to switch to this topic for a bit..
It is good that there is a lawyer making this information widely available at meetings. I went to a free talk in November through my alumni association, but I am sure the firm holding it was targeting the MBAs. Thanks for the list, Trisha, It matches what I were told were key issues, although the London talk did not emphasize citizenship matters at all. I will cover as much as I can. I am working on Kennedy/Nixon now.. .
This is going to take some time because I have to keep my employer happy: 1) first I have to research and write the article then 2) it has to be accepted by some other scholars for publication and they could be slow. When they send me the pre-publication copy to check I will post it somewhere publicly accessible…
Thank you for taking on this project, Publius. Your research will have a audience anxious to read here at Brock and Maple Sandbox.
NOTE: The London Ontario information session is being held in the Landon Branch Library in London Ontario. It is not the London Branch Library. Could Petros or someone else change that o to an a in the post itself. I think someone probably thought it was a typo from my post at Maple Sandbox, but it is fact the Landon Branch library. (named for London Ontario’s first librarian Fred Landon).
Here is the post from Sandbox.
http://maplesandbox.ca/2014/february-8-informtion-session-london-ontario/
Thanks for noticing that, Blaze. Corrected and bolded for everyone planning on attending in London, ON — the LANDON Branch Library.
I thought there would be a session in Montreal this weekend. When do you think a session will come to Montreal?
@Crazyworld,
I have no idea, but I do know that we have had little active participation from US persons living in Quebec at IsaacBrockSociety. I wonder if the info session presenter is bilingual. We need more Quebec awareness of FATCA in general – public, politicians, and media.
@Publius
You should somehow get in touch with Roger Conklin. He would be a great source of information for your project. He writes:
“Beyond a shadow of a doubt in my mind the primary cause of this loss of US influence is the unique US policy of Citizenship based taxation. It started in a very small way with the Tax Act of 1962, but really intensified with the Tax Reform Act of 1976 which made American so non-competitive that thousands gave up and came home.
Over the years as the US Congress has approved and our presidents have signed extraterritorial legislation which violates the sovereignty of other nations and obligates Americans living in those countries to violate the laws of those countries, US influence abroad has steadily declined. The vigorous application of FBAR reporting has become a massive arm of mass destruction for US influence abroad, and FATCA.
Today Americans abroad are shunned. Foreign banks don’t want to allow them to have bank accounts and no foreign group with an ounce of common sense wants to get involved in a joint venture with Americans. Can you blame them? I sure can’t.”
…unique US policy of citizenship-based taxation. How apparent to many here and to many countries (even though they fall in line with signing such as FATCA IGAs — in an attempt to save their countries’ economies), the US holds itself above the rest of what they consider “inferior” world countries. Extra-territorial? Exceptioalism?
Correct, WhiteKat,
We would very much welcome here input from people of Quebec (we have tried to get that). This may happen as more who could be considered ‘US Persons’ in Quebec become aware.
Crazyworld, can you help us with more awareness where you’re at / give us suggestions on how this can better be accomplished?
Well I vaguely heard about this a year ago or so then heard more in the past 2 weeks and have read a fair bit about it now. I have long since believed I was no longer a US citizen.
I was born in the usa to an american father and canadian mother..spent a little over a year in the usa then we moved back to canada and have been here ever since..its been over 40 years now. I never worked studied voted or lived in the usa. I never applied for a us passport. I believe I have a ssn which my father applied for me..never used it for anything.
I was 16 when I officially got my canadian citizenship. I was 20 when I received another nationality via my mother. I also worked for the government for awhile when I was younger. I was aware that my us citizenship would be relinquished when i applied for the other nationality and when i worked for the government agency but never knew or thought I would need a cln. Of course I never filed anything with the irs as I have always believe I am canadian..I worked here and lived here my entire life since I can remember.
I do own a piece of desert land in the usa which my father gave me..its worth a few thousand dollars..dont think thats a crime..many canadians own property in the usa..I certainly cant live on this land..its literally a piece of desert.
My thinking is that the irs has no claim on me and likely doesnt know anything about me. Be surprise if my bank knows where I was born so unless the canadian government starts sharing info dont see how this could affect me. If I have to stop travelling to the usa then so be it.
I have two options to relinquish..my second nationality and the work for the government. But is it worth getting a back dated cln..in a way doesnt that just expose me. I personally dont think the usa has any right expecting me to file income taxes with them..its ridiculous..I am a canadian and have worked and lived in canada my whole life. By the way the canadian income taxes are much higher than in the usa..this is not a tax haven and I am not a rich person.
@crazyworld
My advice is that if you are reasonably sure you can get a backdated (prior to 2004) CLN, then do it. That’s literally the get-out-of-jail-free card. You can then live your life 100% normally and not have to wonder what happens if the plane you’re travelling to Mexico in has to emergency land in the US (if you’re the type that worries about that sort of thing (obviously, I am)).
Hello Brockers, another little ditty to download before they take it away;
This is part of a joint congressional committee published report. Others can probably dice this up better, but it might be nice to have in the file. Better yet, send it to your MP as a report to Congress pointing out that having a CLN is not written into US Law. My guess is that would be the final breaking of the Expatriation Act 1868.
“There is no obligation for an individual to obtain a CLN or otherwise notify the Department of State of relinquishing ones citizenship.”
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/GPO-CPRT-JCS-2-03/pdf/GPO-CPRT-JCS-2-03-7-2.pdf
@tdott
Its not clear to me that the cln is the get out of jail free card. The IRS seems to suggest that they only interpret the date of the cln as the day you applied for it. But I do think you are probably correct..it would be a big help.
At this point feel like I should just do nothing..I could care less if I ever step foot in the usa.
@crazyworld
For a relinquishment, the CLN is backdated to the date of the relinquishing act.
And, the general consensus seems to be that if the CLN is backdated prior to April 2004, then you do NOT have to become tax compliant. This is because the rules in effect prior to April 2004 did not require being compliant to be home free.
Perhaps others can explain this better than me.
What I would really like to know is
a) How do the banks know where one is born..as far as I know they dont ask this question..
b) Is the canadian government going to tell the banks which dual citizens were born in the usa
c) If the canadian bank thinks you have us citizenship what will they do?? Are they going to close your account..place a 30 percent tax on us income..or just pass your information to the irs
d) What would satisfy a bank that you are not a us citizen..a cln..or do they want a letter from the irs saying you are tax compliant..
These are the questions I really want the answer to and surprisingly I have seen very little in the way of discussion or answers on this on this website..maybe no one knows..
Tricia asked me to let you know that the Meet-Up site has taken down the listings and groups for the info sessions. Seems to have something to do with the Meet-Up site people thinking we were selling advice — which we’re not — but which would be against their policy. Maybe it will get straightened out, but at this time they’re down.
The info sessions, of course, are being held as planned.
@crazyworld: There has been tons of talk here and at maplesandbox.ca about the issues you raised.
The important thing is don’t panic. Stay calm. (easier said than done.)
The short answer is banks have no right to ask where you were born or to give your information to a foreign government without your consent. If the government changes the laws, we may have the grounds for a Charter challenge.
@crazyworld… that’s just it… no one knows how this can be implemented (without violating charter rights) at the moment. And we won’t know until either an IGA is signed, or the Gov’t doesn’t sign an IGA, and the banks are left to deal with FATCA on their own. All we can do is look to what is happening in other countries and make some assumptions.
I know one thing… the moment my bank or government tells me they’re sending my (and my Canadian-only husband’s) personal, private financial information to a foreign government is the moment I get legal representation for violation of my charter rights.
@the powers that be… any word on the tentative Vancouver session yet?
Just think of the challenges the Natives will have against the government for violating their privacy. The court costs to the government will be astounding if they try to sign our rights away…
@bubblebustin says
January 31, 2014 at 11:02 am
Expect anything. The USA has gone from one of the best countries in the world to one of the very worst. Nice to debate laws and rules but The US govt doesn’t care about laws and the constitution. I feel sad when I see people still locked in the mistaken belief that lawyers and politicians care two hoots about the law. Every day we see bought judges corrupt this country and sadistically pervert justice. Canada is no exception. In my opinion people should just get out and distance themselves as far as possible from the fascists because they ARE destroying the world and WILL NOT stop. I look to the people of Thailand who no matter which side they are on and no matter who is right are bringing that totally corrupt country to its knees. That’s what needs to happen in the USA but our citizens are way way beyond help. They are all drugged up by design and incapable of a real revolution.
I will be glad to help any way I can.