Lynne has a superb and very timely article on Financial Post website today.
Dual Canadian-American citizens: We are not tax cheats
Check it out, and please contribute to the comments. You may recognize the sources of a couple of them.
I was born and educated in the US. After completing my post-graduate education, I entered Canada on a temporary work permit, moving to Canada because of the Vietnam war. Shortly after unpacking, I applied for landed immigrant status. A few months later I received in the mail an induction notice from the US Army; I drew a peace symbol on it in felt marker pen and mailed it back. As a result, I was indicted and a warrant was issued for my arrest (both were quashed in 1977 by the Carter amnesty).
I became a Canadian citizen in 1975. In 1976, for the US Bicentennial I wrote a political letter to Henry Kissinger, then Secretary of State. In it I mentioned that I had "renounced" (I didn't then know of "relinquish") my US citizenship on becoming a Canadian, explaining in several pages my reasons for leaving the US. I also mentioned the fact that on my mother's side I am a descendant of a soldier who fought in Washington's army during the US rebellion, but now I was declaring my personal independence from the US and rejoining the British Commonwealth. Within six months, I received by mail a CLN recognizing my having expatriated myself from the US in 1975. I filed away my CLN and forgot I had it, until I found it after searching for it upon learning of FATCA and OVDI in August 2011. Since then, I proudly keep a photocopy of it with my passport (which is Canadian; I have never had a US passport in my life, nor will I ever).
As a Canadian who long since ceased being an American and who has a CLN, I am not directly affected by FATCA or other US taxation outrages. However, my wife and several of her friends are affected, until their relinquishment CLNs (dating from 30-40 years ago) are issued. Also I have several close friends who were born in Canada of US parents and are considered by the US to be US citizens, though they have never lived in the US, worked there, earned income there, held property there, held US passports, or in any other way excercised USC and are horrified they might be considered US. I am active on this website and in writing my elected Canadian politicians about these issues, on their behalf.
I am a retired former employee of the Government of Canada who faithfully and proudly served his adopted and adoptive country for many years.
Updated September 2, 2012: earlier this week, my wife finally received her relinquishment CLN, State Department formal recognition that (in their exact words on the CLN) she "ceased to be a US citizen on" the date she became a Canadian more than 35 years ago. Mission Accomplished, to borrow words from my least-favourite contemporary/contemptible American. I will continue to monitor this website from time to time to see if I contribute useful information or opinions, but my wife and I are determined to regain our lives after the past twelve months of angst. Best wishes to all of you on this website in your odyssey toward freedom from the US.
@Joe Zinga
Congratulations…just last night I read your posting to my wife…
Pardon the intrusion .. but 4 weeks? for Relinquishment…was it backdated to the 1980’s as you previously indicated? in your posting here?
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2013/09/16/americansabroad-in-canada-may-soon-be-unable-to-receive-payments-from-government/comment-page-3/#comment-541101
@Joe Zinga,
Thanks so much for reporting your spouse’s receipt of the Certificate of Loss of US Nationality. There is no time to be sad for destruction the US Citizenship-Based Taxation could do to the rest of you and your spouse’s lives and hard-earned savings. Regret it has to be this way — the US made the rules and gives us not much other choice. Good for you and your spouse getting through to the end of your maze. It is stories like yours that keep us in this game after we have settled our individual situations. Congratulations isn’t quite the word, but you know what I try to express. I’m glad anything I said helped for you. My best wishes to you both.
@JoeZinga,
Congratulations to you and your spouse! I’m really glad that you have wrapped things up, so you can get on with your lives. Great to hear that the CLN took only 4 weeks to arrive, too — hope it’s the start of a trend!
@benedict, Calgary 411, Pacifica. Yes is was back dated to 1980 and it took one month from the appointment to get it. The Calgary Consulate, apart from a paranoid level of security was very helpful despite having to cope with the flood which postponed our appointment for over a month. One of the supervisors was very helpful and took initiatives above and beyond, like writing a letter to the Canadian State department to confirm the need for a precise date of naturalization in Canada ( as you know citizenship certificates from 1980 only had the year and the US Consulate required the specific date). We were told that date confirmation could take up to 5 months. We got it in two weeks!! We felt that the Calgary Consulate bent over backwards. During the flood we even got a phone call from a senior official at the Consulate to tell us that they would reschedule and alter their usual appointments schedules to accommodate. Glad we did not try Vancouver, which by the way was another piece of Brock advice we got, namely go to Calgary. Great advice. Again thanks to all. There are tears because of the many generations of Americans in my spouses family including some who fought in the Civil War and defended the US In other world wars. It is very sad that expats are treated this way. And I should add that at no time did my spouse owe a cent of US tax!! The insensitivity of it all is astounding. So now there is some joy but @David the grieving will also begin.
Question. After relinquishing and receiving a CLN, in order to enter the US is a tourist VISA required or can one travel on a Canadian passport without any other requirement? I have heard that once giving up US citizenship that one requires a visa to travel there. Or is this only for those who renounce? Thank you.
Joe, you should be able to use your passport like any other Canadian. If you have a US birthplace, have a copy of your CLN handy if they ask for proof of your non-US status, but don’t volunteer it. You should be fine.
Oh and as my husband, who was reading over my shoulder pointed out, Canadians don’t need visas … yet.
@yoga girl. Thank you. This is good news. And thanks for the advice about not volunteering the CLN.
Joe, they might not ask and as my husband always is reminding me, never volunteer information in these types of settings. Answer the questions asked. Keep it simple.
Last time I went through the US border, I was asked why I would live in Canada over the US. Out if courtesy to those behind me waiting in a 2 1/2 hour line up, I didn’t feel inclined to elaborate and just smiled.
Some of us(myself, Blaze, Victoria, Just Me, and others) do talk among ourselves offline and we do have sources of information coming out of DC as to what is going on that we can’t necessarily share verbatim here. I will say there is nothing out their indicating FATCA is going to die next week on the otherhand voices are being raised in argument and people are starting to sweat within the US government over FATCA. IRS/Treasury is not signing these IGA’s at nearly the rate they need to be.
@bubblebustin, re; …”Out if courtesy to those behind me waiting in a 2 1/2 hour line up, I didn’t feel inclined to elaborate and just smiled…”
I admire your forbearance. Perhaps there will be a better time for a display of your powers – from the Canadian side? http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/02/about-that-honey-badger-who-does-not-give-a-shit/71615/
My Canadian passport bears a six-month US visa from when I entered the US to search for my father. This visa is free and issued upon arrival in the United States (or in my case, at the Vancouver airport on departure) to Canadian citizens.
I did not volunteer the CLN. I was asked what the purpose of my visit was, I said to search for my missing father. The border guard gave me a very concerned look, stamped my visa and wished me well. It is a good idea not to volunteer the CLN but only to present it when asked for proof of loss of US citizenship. Presenting the CLN is potentially aggravating to Americans, who think that their citizenship is superior to all others and why would anyone ever wish to relinquish it? A friend who years ago relinquished his citizenship, told me only once in many years of traveling back and forth, was queried in a hostile manner, why he had given up his citizenship. I agree that it is better to have them question your citizenship and tell you that you are an American and that you should be traveling on a US passport, and then and only then, to present the CLN as a proof that you are doing the right thing by traveling on the foreign passport.
I wonder how long before they get used to seeing CLN’s? They will be seeing a lot more of them. By rights we should be able to enter the exact same as any other law abiding Canadian.
Why would we need a visa? Other Canadians enter on their Canadian passport.
@Tim, I always believe that the IGA’s are progressing in the same way corporate midlevel decisions progress–they don’t. They hope that they can provide something that shuts up the requester for awhile, and then some more. If new crises should come along or if leadership should change, it is the excuse necessary for all parties to let it die. If attention stays upon the issue and the key powerbrokers stay aggressive on the issue, then it would have to get implemented. THe more things that make implementation impossible or difficult, the more that the key people will try to keep things buried at the bottom of the to-do-list. Canada is the place that is infested with the mosquitoes that could be key.
@Atticus, if the border guard goes to the trouble of stamping the CDN passport, it seems now customary to issue a six-month visa (i.e., it lets the authorities know when the CDN has stayed too long). Visa is just simply permission stamped in a passport: “An endorsement on a passport indicating that the holder is allowed to enter, leave, or stay for a specified period of time in a country.”
Schubert noted in 2012 in the Crossing the US Border on a Canadian Passport with a US Birthplace post at Maple Sandbox:
And regarding his travels to the US Summer 2013:
@ Tim
It seems unlikely that FATCA IGAs are Treasury’s top priority in the next month or so. Defiant Republican conservative factions are forcing a showdown over defunding Obamacare that may lead to a government shutdown.
This is followed immediately by a another crisis as the US reaches its “debt ceiling”. Treasury is expected to exceed the $16.7 trillion debt limit by mid-October. If the borrowing cap is not raised, US could go into default. And then there is the actual roll-out of Obamacare itself, a widely described “train wreck” of vast and confusing controversy. Treasury is at epicentere of this, being responsible for much of Obamacare’s administration.
@Petros, no, a visa is the request for permission to stay for the time specified on it.
While unlikely, they can deny you entry for the reason of their choosing.
Remember that story about the British lady travelling on a 6 month visa with her cat and a bunch of pictures to come grieve the loss of her father with her brother who had emigrated to the US.
They decided that it was “obvious” that she was coming with the intent of not coming back and denied her entry. That story really struck me and I am really paranoid over it.
After that, she was basically banned to come visit with her brother because she could not get another visa because she was once refused entry.
That is the reason why at some point, I will likely acquire US citizenship.
@Chris, I have to think there was something else going on with that story.
When my spouse and I were young before we married we once decided to go spend the summer with my dad in the U.S. We loaded up the car for the summer and headed down. We were pulled over, taken to separate rooms and questioned. We were denied entry because they said the same as they said to the British lady “It is obvious you are going to over stay” It was rather silly and I gave them my father’s phone number to call so they could verify the length of our stay with him etc. No go. After the denial we were told not to attempt to re enter for a month or so. We didn’t.
After that we had zero problems entering. The reason we were denied is all the stuff we had loaded up with to go down there for two months. We had enough money on us and would be staying with family. They did not like it that I had family there and the fact we were not married yet. Yet, they told us just because we were denied that once didn’t mean we were “barred” They don’t bar you for life unless there is some factor that would cause such by law. If the British lady was barred for life then something was up with that, she could have contested it had the officer been in the wrong in telling her that.
For this reason, the Canadian Snowbird Assn recommends that those spending a significant amount of time in the US “pro-actively complete and file a new 8840 form each year with the U.S. Internal Revenue Service. This is a positive acknowledgment that you are entering the U.S. each year as a “temporary visitor for pleasure” and are complying with U.S. tax laws. A photocopy of each year’s completed form should also be carried, when crossing the border into the U.S. the following year, to indicate that you are entering the U.S. as a temporary visitor from Canada.”
http://www.snowbirds.org/tax-forms
@bubblebustin, re: “… for someone who likes to brag about himself, “handsome” wasn’t included in his list of attributes (speaks four languages, is uber intelligent and wealthy).’
Actually it was in another comment directed to me, lol, SR says: “Looks,money and control but lets call it power are great things to have UWFF ! I wouldn`t trade them for anything,haha”
Yes, people like this really do exist.
It’s likely BS too, consistent with most of what’s spewed out if this individual.
@WhiteKat, everyone is intelligent about something, but wisdom takes time and experience to accumulate.
@Bubblebustin, the claim of being wealthy with insults is reasonably an accurate self-description. I can’t disagree with that.