Well, not a perfect story. But, any story at this stage, is better than nothing. It provides opportunity.
Tax Evaders Beware! Money’s Getting Harder To Hide
The narrative is fairly predictable, and while not wrong, the emphasis is NOT where I would like it. However, it is the conventional wisdom (CW) version, and arises out of all the partisan focus on Romney’s tax situation, Swiss Bank Accounts and the battle over his lack of tax return disclosure. (see preceding story)
FATCA gets a passing mention which is significant as it is the first time since it was passed in 2010 that it has been uttered on NPR. Also, since this is only a 4 minute story, I understand that they would not get into the peripheral issues that impact you and I.
Have a listen, and see what you think. I am still pondering a 1200 character response on their web site. That is their limit. Now, the question is, how to use this opportunity to expand their understanding of a BIGGER story of unintended consequences on immigrants and expats.
*And be sure and open the link. Read my posting and add your own. when you do. This is a horribly one sided article which tells almost none of the real story. Not a word on what it does to make it impossible for a “US person” to survive if they live, work or are retired outside of the US.
@ Roger…
I posted a comment too. It is in moderation. It hopefully will come out, as I kept it measured to try and get their attention on unintended consequences. They will probably respond to that better than charges they are engaged in oppression! LOL..
Here is what I posted, in case it doesn’t show up. I need to save it somewhere. Hard to keep it down to 1200 characters, isn’t it??
*Well, I listened and though it is seemingly well-researched from a one point of view, it certainly doesn’t do justice to our side of the story. I have added a comment which I presume they will moderate since it is the first time I have written.
It would be helpful if more would register with NPR and support our arguments.
@Roger..
I saw your second comment, so did another one too… I used some of Badgers references regarding the “Onshore tax havens” I did not use links there, as was concerned it would never come out of moderation!
Comment:
*
*Problem
with that is that NPR tends to lean towards the LEFT with a major
Liberal bias. You won’t have anyone willing to listen there. Case in
point, the Liberal john tod who pretty much said “Well it is time for
the rich to pay at least their fair share of taxes. Grow up! You pay
your electric bill don’t you? Now it is time to pay your tax bill, stop
winning and write the check already! And again, GROW UP!” Got to love the Liberal buzzwords of “Pay Your Fair Share” and assumption that “we don’t pay taxes where we live”.
None of the liberals are interested in listening. They all want
handouts and if it takes expatriate funds to pay for “what they
want”…they’ll support any legal measure no matter how dubious to get
it without regard for the extra-territorial over-reach of any such legislation.
*I glanced through the article without reading most of it because I don’t like the focus. The focus should be on the fact that banks are refusing to provide innocent Americans with financial services. Focusing on a small number of stateside people while ignoring the harm such is causing to millions of Americans, just goes to show how much we are “worth” in the United States. Here’s my comment:
@The_Animal
I take a little different perspective than you.
You call it a Problem, and I just look at it as a Challenge.
I find the Left, or the ones I know, less dogmatic and certain than those I know on the Right so would rather try to persuade someone that I think has a left wing bias and open to persuasion than one with a Right wing certainty, or a “true believer”. In our partisan politics these days, there is no such thing as a moderate Republican any more, (more just lost in the primary elections) and what is the point of trying to change the mind of someone is very dogmatic and idealist.
Years ago, you could have been dismissive of NPR as “Liberal” or Left slanted….
But that has really evolved over the years. And, in my opinion, they actually strive for the Balance that Fox misrepresents in their advertising. Also, blogs like Planet Money are always looking into and exploring the Unintended Consequences of government actions, and they are target of my comments, because this subject is right up their ally. They are the audience I am trying to reach more than the journalist that wrote the story.
They are not locked into a simple leftist view, and frankly, they come down more on libertarian or conservative positions on fiscal issues than you would think. So don’t give up, and don’t just dismiss them as not listening or generalize too much. I have enough friends on the Right that NEVER listen to anything I say, but hope that is not true of ALL of them. LOL
@swisspinoy
The story they did was in the context of the previous story on the partisan battle and Reid’s recent comments about Romney Tax returns. They ran concurrently on the evening news program. Generally speaking, I find it is better to listen to their stories than just read or skim them.
So, I understand the direction they went, and they were not thinking about our perspective. Why would they? They don’t know enough. That said, it did provide an opportunity to educate and speak to the issues that impact you and I. For them to even mention FATCA is a BIG deal, seeing they have been silent, like most establishment media, since it was enacted.
So, great opportunity to let them know they have hit a raw nerve, and if comments are not too off the wall, you might get a journalist attention for a broader story. That is the mission, at least from my perspective. Thanks for making a comment. Every one helps. I can usually see the IBS comments from the others, as they are generally more thoughtful and comprehensive.
*You are right. I should probably put more thought into my comments so that they better explain the situation. I’m just sick of hearing all this talk about “offshore”, “foreign”, “cheats” as well as all these threats and scare tactics made by accountants about not filing or making mistakes. I’ve pretty much had it with being a “US person”. If someone drops a needle, then I’ll be taking the train to Bern to celebrate relief from this mess.
@swisspinoy
I hear ya. I am sick and tired of the same ole hackneyed phrases they use in media stories too. Sometimes I think I should just let it go and quit commenting, and then I think of Roger and his 30 year effort to get attention to the ills of Citizenship taxation, and so I go looking for another story to comment on! LOL
Think I will take a break and see what Satire is on the Daily Show tonight!
Cheers..
@Just_me: I doubt you will be surprised to hear that I take The_Animal’s perspective on this.
This NPR piece is laced with lies and misinformation and it is a subtle yet highly partisan hit piece against Romney. This is not at all surprising since NPR is an elitist propaganda vent that does little more than spew progressive hogwash into the popular conscience. Its primary purpose is to lull the muppets with the message “Don’t worry slave, master has everything under control”. What a coincidence that it comes out simultaneous to Harry Reid’s accusations that Romney paid no taxes for 10 years and also to the Democrats unanimously voting against tax reform.
@Just_Me (or anyone else..):
1. What is a reasonable maximum level of combined income taxation for county, state and federal government in times of peace?
2. What is a reasonable maximum percent of GDP that should be allocated to county, state and federal government in times of peace?
Here is my answer:
1. 0% . To steal someones income at its source is partially enslave them.
2. 3%, 3%, 2%. All elected positions should be unpaid with strict term limits
You see, Just_Me, I Just want to be left alone by government. Thanks in a large part to the US, I have grown to despise government. But because of the US government, I will no longer willingly believe any government’s lies. NPR, which you appear to so appreciate, is a government misinformation pablum presented in a manner to appeal to elitist snobs that seem to predominate on the east and west coasts of the US.
3% of GDP? Where is that? I’ll move there. I think Mrs. Petros and myself probably pay something close to 3% of the GDP of Canada in personal income tax, CPP, HST, and property tax.
@ConfederateH
I guess you won’t be surprised that I disagree with your generalized characterizations on NPR. 🙂
I can think of all kinds of clever retorts to characterize your message too, but I don’t think I will respond in colorful kind.
I have been listening to NPR for years, I am a fiscal conservative, and social progressive and am hardly a muppet whatever that is! Even with biases that I am smart enough to detect, it is ridiculous, IMHO to characterize it the way you do, as “Elitist media which spews progressive hogwash.”
To my ears, over time, it has provided multi faceted opinions and political views, in measured respectful language that I prefer. You will not get a “Hard Talk” type shout fest on public radio. Some programs are better than others at doing this, but the array of programs available for “the muppet” is way more diverse than your broad brushed charges. ATC is only one of the hundreds of programs that make up the public radio universe.
“All things Considered” (ATC) is an establishment news program for sure, but given the miserable choices of commercial news in America with the endless commercials that dupe the gullible, (like the many get rich schemes that are breathlessly hyped) I prefer listening to NPR over the other alternatives available in the afternoon.
I also know many conservatives of like mind as you, also listen all the time too. Why? Tone and lack of commercials, I think. The commercial advertising onslaught on AM radio drive time or the Cable news talking heads is more toxic to “the muppets” (your characterization) then the so called “progressive hogwash” you deride.
I totally disagree with how you express their intent to “lull the muppets with the message “Don’t worry slave, master has everything under control”. That is just hyperbolic nonsense, in my opinion. You are free to express that belief, but I am not being lulled into anything!
The point of this post, was not to create a debate on the merits of NPR. I understand this story is not the way I would have liked it, but I thought it did represent an opening to educate. “An Opportunity.” You can chose to use that opportunity or not, or just rant about how biased and elitist they are. It is probably better if you don’t, as frankly, with all due respect, you don’t get a listener to open to your point of view when you attack them with such dismissive rhetoric.
I understand it feels good to say it, but it is ineffective speech, in my opinion. It is entertaining and endears you to like minded thinkers who want to rail against conventional progressive wisdom, (and I might even chuckle at your words) but it shuts down conversation or reasoned debate amongst those we have to reach out to. It assures your voice WILL NOT be heard by them. It will just be received as rabble, so what value is that?
Again, that is just my opinion, and I understand you think differently. Fair enough. In many ways, some of your positions (not rhetoric) I agree with related to effects of US policy, but NPR is hardly “government misinformation pablum presented in a manner to appeal to elitist snobs that seem to predominate on the east and west coasts of the US”. Even in those very conservative outposts like Alaska and Nebraska, it is listened to by a lot of conservatives who prefer it over the commercial AM Drive time right wing rant fests. 🙂 Maybe it is just a matter of taste, and we know there is no accounting for taste. You like Brown, and I like Green curtains. Who is right?
I guess on this one, we will agree to disagree.
As for being Left Alone by Government, well you probably can be, if you are willing to give up driving on those highways, or using many of the services or products that have come from government intervention in the Market place. There were/are many like you in Alaska, when I lived there, who retreated to the “bush” to be left alone! That is their choice, but I was always struck with the irony that their journey began on a Bush flight loaded with mail subsidized by Senator Ted Steven’s legislation that required the P.O. to ship all village grocery goods as “by pass” airmail at 4th class road rates, subsidized by the mail users in the “Lower 48” . It was his desire to keep passenger fares low for those that wanted to escape to the Bush, and this was his way to do it. Go figure.
Other choices for being left alone by government, are probably somewhere in Somalia or Yemen (although drones are a bit of a problem now) or maybe on that Mars landscape, but then again, I guess it was government that put that Curiosity Lander up there in the first place, so I take that back. It is hard to find a place to hide, and be left alone without taking anything from the government teat! I am sure your own list of sucklings, if the truth be told, is probably extensive.
No man is an island, mate. Government is an expression of the social nature of the human DNA. It IS a Force of Nature and part of mankind’s evolution. There is no escaping it. Some governments are better than others, and I too am concerned that Americas days of “good government” are over and the impacts around the world are more negative than positive.
I don’t know how you rediscover your “leave me alone” utopia. It does not exist mate. What you want, is almost reverse evolution. Good luck with that. Not even in the most desolate outback in Australia, the far reaches of northern Canadian tundra, or the most remote atoll in the Pacific will you totally be left alone by government. When you call for help, it will be over those radio airwaves and emergency channels set up by government agreements and conventions to be sure your rescue can begin! And, I would bet, you will call!
Thanks, Just Me.
I agree. I find NPR and CBC, etc. much broader in scope than any of most of the stuff offered on the airwaves. Along with what I read and feel in my gut, I prefer to sort through more literate, complete accounts and come to my own conclusions. I, personally, can’t take the ‘entertainment’ media we are most offered today, nor all the advertising that sways our thinking more than we’d like to think.
Bring back good journalism, full stories (one way or another — or just the facts), rather than headlines and sound bytes, and our job will be much easier.
One thing I so appreciate is the litreacy of so many on Isaac Brock. I’ve learned so much to help me in my decisions. I listen to everyone and I form my own decisions, which I hope most here do. I don’t know whether what I conclude is right or wrong; it is just what I feel works best for my and my family’s situation.
That’s just me, Just Me.
@just me,
you forgot to mention how the internet came about 🙂
@bubblebustin…
Oh, there are many examples. Our market (wall street) is not a free market, it is a construct of government too with all its ills and benefits and bailouts. We do not have “Free Trade”, as at 1000s of pages long, we have managed trade.
I am in sympathy with ConfederateH when it comes to minimizing government impacts on our lives. I just think that often we fail to recognize that mankind does not live anywhere in the world devoid of government influence. I guess we could revert to tribalism as less government , but seeing the middle east, who wants that?
Surprisingly, as appealing as libertarian political thought is to me, I still look around for that one country who lives by those principles. Of the ~204 countries in the world, where does it exist? If not, why not? Maybe our evolution is not yet complete and we are moving that direction, but I don’t see the trend line yet. Who can predict the future? Certainly not me.
@Just Me: You failed to answer my questions, and it makes it very difficult to carry on a debate when one side avoids questions that might later reduce his wiggle room.
“endears you to like minded thinkers who want to rail against
conventional progressive wisdom, (and I might even chuckle at your
words) but it shuts down conversation or reasoned debate amongst those
we have to reach out to. It assures your voice WILL NOT be heard by
them. It will just be received as rabble, so what value is that?”
Typical elitist condescention. We have to reach out to a bunch of NPR brainwashed sheeple who think they are smart because NPR told them so? I certainly don’t think so. At some point they have to realize the contradictions of their “conventional progressive wisdom”, but you can lead a horse to water but even adding sugar won’t make him drink.
“if you are willing to give up driving on those highways, or using many
of the services or products that have come from government intervention
in the Market place.”
This is a rehashed version Obama’s “you didn’t build that” argument. You probably received NPR’s pre- and post- programming on this foul concept. Sorry, the government didn’t build those roads, contractors did with the money that the government stole from me and I would gladly have paid for those roads with my extra un-stolen income if it hadn’t been stolen in the first place. Personally, I find the argument highly offensive, but it does play well with those who like receiving stolen money from the government.
“Government is an expression of the social nature of the human DNA. It IS a Force of Nature and part of mankind’s evolution.”
Wrong answer, NPR lover. Government is nothing BUT force and it has corrupted and distorted mankind’s evolution. The European ruling elites have been causing wars and robbing the muppet’s for a millenium. They took over the US banking system in 1913 when they also started the income tax and then they dragged the US into two world wars and countless wars since. Right now they are causing misery and strife across the middle east and Africa. They learned how to brainwash the sheeple in the 20’s, and perfected it in WWII. NPR is one of their primary organs, but progressives can’t see this because it would wipe out their entire value system. It would be similar to all those N. Koreans bawling about Kim’s dealth.
“I don’t know how you rediscover your “leave me alone” utopia. It does
not exist mate. What you want, is almost reverse evolution.”
Have you ever studied Austrian economics? Have you ever heard of Rothbard or Mises? It would appear than NPR has once again deliberately left its audience uneducated. Now why would NPR try to propagate the idea that government is in our DNA and is inevitable and that reducing government is “reverse evolution”?
“I still look around for that one country who lives by those principles.
Of the ~204 countries in the world, where does it exist? If not, why
not?”
Because the thugs calling the shots don’t want to become slaves just like the ones whose lives they so manipulate. Because they have been in control for multiple generations and have used the concept of divide and conquer until they have made the entire world compliant. And FATCA is just one little teeny-tiny step in their plan of forced global compliance. But you seem to think that all we have to do is stop this citizenship based taxation injustice and government will once again be our benevolent big brother. Well you can be that deliberately naive if you wish, but it is quite reckless and it endangers the rest of us. And if this message “shuts down conversation or reasoned debate amongst those we have to reach out to” because it is too direct and not sufficiently “moderate” then I really couldn’t give a sh*t. Your goal may be only that NPR progressive sheeple want to repeal certain tax laws, but mine is far more ambitious. You see, I am not a US person but I am far more American than any of those sociopaths in Washington DC, and I would like the US to become America once again. For my spawn, I don’t want 3 centuries more of Roman Empire like decline in this NPR-brainwashed-progressive cesspool.
@ConfederateH
Sorry mate. I am having a hard time understanding where you are coming from. You seem like a very angry person to me, and disdainful of opinions or views from those you have decided think they are “ smart because NPR told them so” Yup, that is me. I just sit around waiting for the Press Release from NPR to tell me what to think, so I can share it with someone living in Switzerland whom I have never met, so they can retort back and insult me. Not so smart after all, am I! 🙂
I have some close friends very much like you, and as I have learned, nothing I can say will modify your views or temper your approach, so don’t think I will try. I bet in person you are a fine fellow and probably not as pointed as you are in writing.
The point of the NPR post was, again, an Opportunity to reach people that you disagree with, give them a broader perspective of the ills of US FATCA policy and Offshore issues, and you choose to insult rather than attempt to educate “the muppets”.
Maybe that’s because you think it isn’t worth the effort. Ok. Fine. Might as well only talk to those that agree with you 100%, and then you will be happier. That way you can rant on about everything that is wrong with government and stupid NPR sheep like me, without opposing opinions, but never change anything. Maybe you can join this group of grumpy old men! I am joking here! 🙂
I think I will just let stand my comments which you have decided are “Typical elitist condescension. ” I don’t feel very elitist, being raised a Midwest conservative fundamentalist white boy, but I guess I am supposed to accept that is so, as you, who have never met me, has decided that I am just an NPR Sheep. So it goes. I was lacking a label, so thanks. I feel better now.
I will just let you have the last word there, and move on, although, to your question of “Have you ever studied Austrian economics? Have you ever heard of Rothbard or Mises?” Of course I have, and I would point out some good references to discussions of these authors, but why bother? You really are not interested as I must be NPR brainwashed.
I apologize for not specially answering your first questions, as I was viewing them more a rhetorical effort, so you could show how little you think government should spend or tax, rather than really expecting an answer. I should NOT have overlooked them. I apologize.
So, rather than respond to your other comments, I will just answer them and then move on.
1. What is a reasonable maximum level of combined income taxation for county, state and federal government in times of peace?
Your answer of Zero seem pretty silly to me, but I would say it all depends on the level of services the society wants and the trust they have in their government officials . In America it is hard to think of a time when it is at peace and NOT at war, but something in the range of an effective rate 20-25% should be sufficient for societies needs. Problem in America it spends at a 50-60% rate and borrows the rest. That is unsustainable, as we know.
2. What is a reasonable maximum percent of GDP that should be allocated to county, state and federal government in times of peace?
Same percentages as above. Revenue and Expense, except in emergencies, should balance.
Cheers…
@Just Me, please accept my apologies for turning this into a personal attack on you. I have been a jerk and in the future I will try to do better. I have allowed a rant against NPR to turn into a series of insults. And I really do enjoy your posts.
But I would like to explain why NPR is such a hot issue with me. Here in Switzerland Schweizerfehrsehen (SF) is a typical European state owned media outlet. These beasts are a creation of and under the control of the left. For 20 years I paid TV taxes to support SF when they were not even available in the valley where we lived. Now SF and the left are trying to levy a special yearly computer tax because they claim that we can watch SF on our computers.
Worse, if you look at this pride of beasts, SF, BBC, CBC, etc, they are all propaganda organs of the welfare state. They exist mostly because of the monopoly on force stands behind them. Just look at some of the things the BBC has done to its viewers in order to maintain its government monopoly. And if you hate the state as much as I do, then any attempt by the left to use their propaganda organs to pull Switzerland into the EU and the Euro would drive you bananas. Yet that is precisely what I have been witnessing for decades. These beasts are to be despised and fought at every turn by anybody who cherished freedom.
NPR does not quite fall into the same pride of beasts as the rest, but they long took money from the government and acted as a revolving door and played a big role in getting Obama elected and were a big part of the Journolist scandal. And it was Obama’s election that directly triggered our decision to expatriate. One of my favorite blog commenters, a neocon, has invented the acronym “TWANLOC” for “Those Who Are No Longer Our Countrymen”. I tend to agree with his sentiment. To him it is no longer politics, it is about preventing his families complete enslavement.
And I know that it is no excuse, but I as still angry about the Limbaugh exchange a few threads back. But Limbaugh could never be as evil or oppressive as these beasts because he doesn’t have the force of the government stand behind him.
*ConfederateH, I’ve never understood Billag. They say that one pays the fee so that there are no commercials, but then there are commercials anyways. I don’t get it.
You once stated that the FEIE is not recognized for the year that one relinquishes citizenship. Is this correct? If this is true, that would mean that one should relinquish in January, right?
@swisspinoy: Bilag never made any sense to me either.
In the year you renounce you have to do a 1040 and a 1040NR. FEIE must be prorated for both portions of the year. I don’t really think that this has a bearing timing since the proportion of FEIE to gross income doesn’t change. We just ended up paying $2500 for 2010 due to late filing penalties, interest, and because we took the dependent deduction for our daughter for both tthe 1040 and the 1040NR. It should have been prorated.
Have you ever studied Austrian economics? Have you ever heard of
Rothbard or Mises? It would appear than NPR has once again deliberately
left its audience uneducated.
Confederate, first, I don’t get NPR in Brazil. The world headlines occupy about 2 minutes of time on the major channels here.
Even the Austrian Schools theories are not lock-tight as some anti-Federal Reserve people would like people to believe. You will still have crisises and crashes. Read about President Andrew Jackson and how he booted the large banks from the US, and what happened. There was depression. IF it was actually rigged by the large banks, we will never know… If you look closely at the depressions around the turn of the 20th century, you’ll see that private financiers were giving money to the US Government to add liquidity to the markets. This in turn provided the main impetus for establishing a government controlled central bank capable of adding liquidity. At least the information that I have read from the time makes it sound like most reasonably intelligent people would have voted in favor of a central bank. Personally, I believe that a “stabilizer” like a central bank is necessary, but the bailouts are terrible and unfair. Who’s going to bail me out if I make a dumb investment?
And this is what I keep telling you: stop thinking about all of this stuff or you’ll drive yourself crazy. (But I’ve said it so many times that I’m thinking that you do not want to stop.) 1913 was a long time ago. Yes, there are very few people who basically control all of the productivity in America and beyond because they print the money. But what on earth can we actually do about it? Not a whole lot.
Returning to where I live, the people are completely ignorant on most everything. The average Brazilian can’t tell you who the first president of Brazil was. If you walk down the street at night, you’ll see most houses watching the same soap operas on TV. Some productive people are still working at night, while others are at the bars (there around 12 within 500 meters of where I live!) The people are NOT complicated and they are mostly happy and cheerful. Ignorance of these sorts of issues is really bliss.
@geeez
your story about the average Brazilian’s blissful ignorance inspired a random thought of a villager in some remote corner of the earth going about her business when suddenly a drone launched Hellfire missile lands in her soup pot.
@geeez, I don’t get NPR in Switzerland either. Nor Fox. I realize that my life would have far less worries if I was just willing to be a good slave. Here in Switzerland the alp farmers (Bergbauer) have a hard but happy existence. They care little whats going on in Bern (except farm policy) let alone whats going on outside of Switzerland. This time of year you can see entire families of 3 generations out on the steep hillsides cutting, drying and gathering hay. Some hills are so steep they rake it onto giant tarps and then make a wild hay ride down the steep grassy hillsides. We used to help out when the kids were young, and I have seen farmers do extremely risky things. Once when a farmer was in his Ladiwagen (hay wagon) with his kids on the seat next to him on a steep hill the wagon started to roll over. The farmer jumped out on the downhill side and held up the wagon while it crawled along until the danger had passed. Then he hopped back in as if nothing had happened.
Such an existence is not possible for me, I am a political beast. In my sophmore year in University I told my father that I wanted to get a degree in political science and then go to law school. Luckily for me my father told me he wouldn’t pay for that, so I ended up with a math degree. Otherwise I might have ended up working for the IRS or Justice department or become an ambulance chaser.
@confederateh and all
I rather like these little glimpses of the other countries we find ourselves living in. I think Brock is enhanced and perhaps may even be tempered by these contributions. You tell a good tale when you aren’t attacking people, confh!
I live in a little seaside village known for being the location of an iconic Canadian television series “The Beachcombers”. We moved here and built a house after selling our home in Vancouver a few years ago. We have a wonderful views of Vancouver Island and the Gulf Islands in between and when the sun is low in the winter skies we can have spectacular sunsets when it’s not drizzling as it does so much at that time of the year. My husband is able to work from home a lot of the time, but when his work takes him to the city it’s just a 40 minute car ferry away. We love the fresh air and great tasting water and last year we started growing our own vegetables which we can enjoy into October and beyond. Sometimes I get these pangs that draw me back to the city, but then when I do, I can’t wait to get back to our slice of paradise in the great country Canada is. If this is slavery, bring it on!
Thanks for reading!