929 thoughts on “Consulate Report Directory (Brockers describe their Consulate Meetings) Part 1 of 2”

1. *extex, congratulations and thanks for the detailed description of the process!  This will likely be a great help others who choose to follow the same path.  For me, the situation was similar. It feels much better to have renounced than to be preparing to renounce.

2. @Joseph–Did you ask Bank Hapoalim if they would unfreeze your account if you show them a CLN?

3. *@Medea

   “…..There is no need for a witness as far as I can see.  Extex’s summary of his recent visit doesn’t mention any witnesses. ….“

   I e-mailed the consulat here in Switzerland last year asking for information concerning renouncing US citizenship. They e-mailed me a set of documents like the DS-4080 and DS-4081 and the was also a “Renunciation Letter” that was directed to me personaly. The most interesting, if not frightening statement in that letter was this:

   “…..If you do not read and write English fluently, you are required to bring along two “disinterested” witnesses, who should present valid identification documents.  Please bring an interpreter if you do not speak English, German, French or Italian……”

   Can anyone please tell me where you will find a “disinterested” witness, let alone 2 of them?????

   For me this is not a problem, even though my posts here might give a different impression 🙂 But what about all those accidentals who don’t speak English?

4. @Joseph Zernik,

   Thanks for your further comments on your experience in Jerusalem.

   I see that the document you refer to, ‘Witnesses’ Attestation Renunciation/Relinquishment of Citizenship’ is Form DS-4082.  http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/81608.pdf

   Also that you paid extra to have a certified copy of what the Jerusalem Consulate has told you will be sent to Washington, DC for approval and that, if so, you will receive your CLN in due course. 

   In our reports here, I find no mention by anyone here of Form 4082 nor is it now the practice of the consulates to give renunciants or relinquishers any copies of their appointment’s paperwork, which has been questionable to many of us as we want copies of what we have signed.  We do now have our little $450 receipt for what we pay for the cost of the appointment for renunciation but that is all until we have until we receive our CLNs.  In cases such as the one you outline, I can see the reasoning for that decision, not saying whether correct or not.  Were you able to review the Consulate Report Directory that we have here regarding reports from others, but none in Jerusalem prior to yours, of their renunciations?

   All I can go by is reports we’ve had at Isaac Brock.  My musings as to the why’s of your actions were my mere speculation that you may have wanted and needed something to open a new bank account, with proof that you had renounced in lack of the actual CLN that you would not be able to get until it came back from Washingon, DC.  I might have wanted the same had my bank account been shackled by my bank.  That part of your experience, to me, is indeed the outrage.

   What led you to question the validity of the US Consulate and its staff in Jerusalem? Did you do any research on this? That Consulate appears to be evident on the internet, as http://www.usembassy.gov/. Just curious.

    

    

5. @ Joseph,

   It’s becoming clear everything looks okay.  Only the consulate official needed to witness your renunciation.  You only need other witnesses if you don’t understand English.  I found this in the DOS Manual. 7 FAM 1260 at point 1264.4(e).

   “In cases where the renunciant does not understand English and witnesses
   are required, the witnesses should sign Form DS-4082.”

   There’s also a few other references to these witnesses in the 7 FAM 1260, which will come up if you do a search for the word “witness.”
   

6. Bravo, Pacifica. Good find for Joseph Zernik — and the rest of us!

7. Bravo to you, too, and everyone who pitched in with their comments on this!  Something just didn’t feel wrong regarding the lack of witnesses, but it took several of us making comments to nail it down exactly why.  I hope this allays your fears, Joseph … and also that you get your CLN soon.

8. *Teamwork wins out every time. Way to go team! The support given to those on the road to freedom by those who have gone ahead is amazing.

    

9. @ Extex,

   What a great detailed account of your renunciation in Toronto!  It gives an exceptionally clear idea of what to expect.  I’ll add it to the Directory tomorrow.

   Just as you mentioned that scoping out the location the day before was a great stress reliever (a good tip for others, too), your story, being so detailed, will relieve a lot of stress for other people planning to expatriate at Toronto. Also the fact that the CO was so personable (typical Toronto) should relieve some stress, too

   I’m glad everything went well for you! And thanks for sharing!

10. Thank you to everyone who commented, I am very appreciative.

    I wanted to be as detailed as possible (and as memory permitted) so those who choose to renounce can have an idea of what happens, just as I had a pretty good idea of what to expect because of the posts made by people who preceded me.

    Now that stage is over with, I can move on to the the next steps, which include ensuring that my MP and the government are well aware of how detrimental FATCA is to Canada and to Canadians, ensuring that my Canadian friends are aware of same, and continuing to enlighten open-minded Americans who live stateside about the challenges of being an American abroad, and of the counterproductive aspects of FATCA.

11. @ extex

    Thank you for telling us about your consulate experience and especially thank you for moving on to those important next steps. I hope others who are breathing easy post-renunciation and what follows (CLN, final tax return) will continue to press the case for those who aren’t quite there yet.

12. *The Vancouver consulate has no appointments, none at all available. I sent an email to the US embassy in Ottawa, who forwarded my email to the Vancouver consulate. Here is my email to them, and the response I got for what it is worth (I will fly to Calgary):

    I am a Canadian citizen, who was born in the US, and who voluntarily gave up my US citizenship when I became a Canadian in 1985. I would like to get a certificate of loss of nationality.

    My email to them:
    I went online to make an appointment for consular services in Vancouver, and found that there are no appointments available, and that times for appointments are booked into July 2013. I checked the Calgary appointment availability, and there are lots of appointments, with availability as soon as next week.

    I live in Victoria BC, and would prefer an appointment in Vancouver.

    I am writing to inquire about your standards of service for consular appointments, and to inquire about how to get an appointment in Vancouver.

    Many thanks for your response to my request.

    Their email to me:

    As a first step, please make an appointment on our website, under Notarial and Other Services:
     
    https://evisaforms.state.gov/acs/default.asp?PostCode=VAC&CountryCode=CAN+++++++&CountryCodeShow=&PostCodeShow=&Submit=Submit
     
    Slots for this category of appointment are in high demand and are fully booked.  You will need to monitor the availability and then make your appointment when a slot becomes available.  We are unable to project when this will occur and therefore are unable to give you a probable time.  We request your patience.
     
    You need to attend in person and  bring with you, documentary evidence of your U.S. citizenship (preferably a passport) as well as all other citizenships you currently hold.  You will be interviewed by the Consular Officer at that time and will be given further instructions.  Renunciation of your U.S. citizenship is not executed at this first appointment.
     
    If you prefer to commence the process with the U.S. Consulate General in Calgary, you should complete the process there, as if you transfer your file to Vancouver later, you will be subject to the same waiting period for appointments here.
     
    The following items are prohibited inside the U.S. Embassy/Consulate and we have no storage facilities for them, so please leave them at your home, your hotel, or in your vehicle:

    ·   Backpacks, bags, luggage, or large purses (purses 12 x 10 x 6 in. and smaller will be permitted)

    ·   Food and beverages

    ·   Weapons, including mace or pepper spray

    ·   Tools, including any sharp or bladed objects

    ·   Any oils, aerosols or pump sprays, liquids, lotions and powders

    ·   Any type of fire starter

    ·   Electronic or recording equipment of any kind, including, but not limited to:

    ·       Cameras

    ·       Laptop computers

    ·       Mobile phones

    ·       MP3, CD, or cassette players

    ·       Pagers

    ·       Keyless remotes

                      Helmets of any type

                      Strollers will be determined on a case by case basis

    This list is not all-inclusive. The U.S. Consulate reserves the right to deny entry of any items deemed suspicious.

    U.S. Consulate General
    American Citizen Services
    1075 West Pender Street
    Vancouver, BC, V6E 2M6
    CANADA
     
     
     
    Privacy/PII
    This email is UNCLASSIFIED.

13. Same email I got from Vancouver about a month ago.  They are useless.  Go to Calgary.

14. @Lagoon,

    I speak from experience. Go to Calgary! Even if you were fortunate enough to obtain a first appointment because there was a cancellation, the Vancouver consulate requires a second appointment. That 2nd appointment, in my case, has been booked for 13 months after the first appointment. GO TO CALGARY.

15. *Thanks, from everything I read on this site, it makes sense to got to Calgary. Still, I wanted to question them on their standards for service and to make the point that you can’t even get an appointment in Vancouver….

    Still need to sort through the tax issues…ugh…

16. Lagoon, tax don’t have to be settled before going to the consulate.  Get yourself free and then we can discuss whether you have any tax requirements.  Possibly not, since your relinquishment may have been 1985, as you said on the other stream.

17. I went to the Jerusalem consulate this morning.  Appt. was made 2 weeks ago.  (They had appointments for the next day under Notary and other services, but I wanted time to get paperwork together and prepared).  

    I arrived at around 10:30am this morning.  I went through the usual security procedures there.  They have a nice, new facility in Jerusalem for ACS and visas (separate from the consul-general’s residence in the center of town).  You stand in line, show them your appointment, they let you into the clearance area one at a time.  I gave them my cellphone that they store in a numbered cubby hole and give you a claim slip.  Went through the metal detectors and out into the courtyard.  Then into the building with 16 teller windows.  About 6 were on the ACS side and 10 on the Visa side. I got a number and they immediately called it.  Went to the empty window and three minutes later a polite women with an American accent came in.  I explained to her that I was giving her notice that I was relinquishing.  She looked confused.  I stuffed my DS-4079 and DS-4081 under the window and said I need to certify that I gave up my U.S. citizenship when I naturalized in Israel in 2002.  She went to the back then came back and told me to wait.

    I took a seat and waited 10-15 minutes.  Lots of Americans were there renewing their passports.  I got called to window #1 in the corner.  A non-american worker asked me what I was there for.  I explained that I was giving notice to relinquish.  He had some internal document with the word CLN on it.  He thought I was trying to renounce.  I explained twice that I naturalized in 2002 with the intent. He asked me why.  I said the banks here are asking for CLNs for proof that I wasn’t a US citizen. I also explained I didn’t need a CLN until now (because of the banks and taxes, etc.)  He said go sit down.  He calls me back 3 minutes later and asks me to fill out an affidavit saying what I was trying to do.  I wrote basically what I wrote on the DS-4079. I naturalized in 2002 with intent to relinquish and I was giving notice and requesting a CLN produced. I showed him the instructions on form 8854 form 2002 (that I prepared in advance) showing that you can lose your u.s. citizenship if you naturalize with intent to relinquish.  He said go sit down, and he’ll get the consul.  He calls me back 2 minutes later and said to come back next week outside their usual morning hours (to come at 1:30pm).  I said ok.  He made the appointment and gave me back my passports. 

    My observations:

    1. They probably *never* have seen a case of someone getting Israeli citizenship with intent to relinquish.  They were really confused.

    2. My suspicion is that they told me to come back next week because they wanted to ask higher ups for guidance.  

    3. I had to be very pushy (but polite) to get my point across that you *can* lose citizenship if you have intent under the rules.

    I sent the following e-mail a little bit ago when I got home (using the contacts Joseph Zernick wrote here earlier).

    to JerusalemACS, SmithKGDear Sir,
    I visited the Jerusalem consulate this morning with the intent to give a signed declaration that I intended to relinquish my U.S. Citizenship when I made Naturalized and became and Israeli citizen on XXX 2002.  The clerks seemed a little confused as to what I was requesting.  I was requesting that you validate my intent to relinquish U.S. Citizenship on XXX 2002 and issue a Certificate of Loss of Nationality(CLN)  based on the following code (as I have consulted with experts on the matter):
    8 U.S.C. § 1481 : US Code – Section 1481: Loss of nationality by native-born or naturalized citizen(a) A person who is a national of the United States whether by
    birth or naturalization, shall lose his nationality by voluntarily
    performing any of the following acts with the intention of
    relinquishing United States nationality –
    (1) obtaining naturalization in a foreign state upon his own
    application or upon an application filed by a duly authorized
    agent, after having attained the age of eighteen years; —
    As to why I haven’t requested until now, I have not had a material need to receive a CLN, but the Israeli banks are asking applicants to prove they aren’t US citizens if their Israeli documents list a U.S. place of birth. Since they are now requesting this information, I now have a need to receive a CLN. As I have already submitted to you on my form DS-4079, I have not registered my children as US citizens, participated in US elections, files US tax returns or have done any other things from my consultation with experts that should or would indicate to the department of state that I intended to retain US citizenship since I have lived in Israel as an Israeli citizen. Regarding, the renewal of my US passport, I was informed that until I gave notice for a CLN, I was required to use my US passport and not obtain a visa or I would have potentially have difficulty with US Customs and border patrol if I did not have a CLN. I have verified this with other people in similar circumstances and when they spoke to other consulates (Vancouver, Canada comes to mind)–they said that in their case the Vancouver verified with Washington that renewing a passport was not an issue with regards to obtaining a back dated CLN to the date they naturalized in Canada.
    I hope this clarifies my situation, although I was somewhat puzzled why I needed to make another appointment as I have been in contact with people who have given notice at other consulates (especially Canada and Europe), and they informed me that a notice of intent to relinquish usually only requires one visit. If you could please let me know what additional documentation I may need for my next visit, please let me know at this e-mail address. I was told my next appointment would be Tuesday, February 5, at 1:30pm. I was also made aware that giving notice of intent to relinquish does not require submission of the $450 fee that people who take an oath of renunciation would normally pay, so I hope this is correct. I also hope you could give me any other information necessary so the next appointment goes smoothly to avoid the need for another trip.
    Thank you for your assistance in this matter.
    Sincerely,XXXXXXPassport #XXXXXXX

18. *BenPloni, I’m glad that it worked out well so far and thanks for sharing this information.  This will certainly be a wonderful assistance to anyone in a similar situation, and I’m sure that they will greatly appreciate the effort you made. 🙂
    

19. @benPloni, please note that there is no two visit requirement.  When you are there the next time, come with a written statement of explaining that you became a Israeli with the intent to relinquish and they should not refuse your statement (i.e., they can, but they are not supposed to).  Do not pay $450.

    The passport issue is obviously a problem because State often uses that to show that you did not intend to relinquish your citizenship.  It is best, if your intention, when becoming a citizen of foreign country, is/was to relinquish, never to use a US passport.  In one case we know, a Canadian was entrapped by a US border guard into getting a US passport in order to travel in transit through the United States.  Later, the a consulate accepted his relinquishment but still forced him to pay $450.

    If you served in a foreign military or worked for a foreign government in a job requiring an oath, then you may also offer that as a point of relinquishment–or if you have taken arms against the US. The United States should not have assassinated Al Alwaki because he did not have the intention of relinquishing while fighting against the US.
    

20. @Petros, I realize there is no two visit requirement, but I can’t really do anything about it if they can’t process my request in one visit due to their incompetence. It seems even in Joseph’s case, they didn’t do one of his forms correctly or misled him to assume that he needed to get a witness form signed when they didn’t and realized it after, yet he thought they messed up. So far, I am not impressed with their knowledge in the less routine, relinquishment matters. Also, I believe it was Pacfica who said that the passport is usually not an issue…as Vancouver clarified and Halifax knew already.

    Also I already submitted the statement of intent on their separate affidavit form:
    http://photos.state.gov/libraries/jerusalem/328666/acs/new-acs-website—page-k-_notarials—affidavit.pdf

    @Swisspiony. I don’t consider it to have worked out until my next visit and they tell me they accepted my request. Until then, who knows if they’ll reject my request for a back dated CLN and force me to renounce.

21. *Is it true that if Canada signs the IGA (assuming effective date of IGA is January 1, 2014), the last date possible to performing a renunciation to get the CLN is December 30, 2013?

22. @All- Got my reply.  

    Dear XXXX,

    Thank you for your correspondence of January 28, 2013 regarding your interest in relinquishing your U.S. citizenship.

    We understand your desire to move forward with this process and complete all of the necessary steps.  However, this is not an action to be undertaken lightly, and our office has a duty to ensure that each potential case Loss of Nationality claim is processed properly, and that the consequences of this action are fully understood and appreciated.

     

    Therefore, this office schedules interviews for these types of services on an individual basis.  We generally set a time that is later in our workday to ensure that we have an opportunity for an uninterrupted discussion with sufficient time to explain the process and evaluate all factors to date.

     

    Most applicants for this service visit our office at least three times before the process is complete, and some may require additional visits.  We regret that this may be inconvenient, but our interest in preserving the integrity of the process and ensuring that the potential former U.S. citizen fully understands the process is our priority.

     

    Your appointment to discuss your relinquishment of U.S. citizenship with a consular officer is confirmed for Tuesday, February 5 at 1:30 PM.

     

    Sincerely,

    American Citizen Services Unit

    Consulate General of the United States in Jerusalem

     

    The U.S. Privacy Act prohibits us from including Personally Identifiable Information (PII) in correspondence sent by this office. Therefore, any Personally Identifiable Information included in your original message will be deleted in our reply.

     

23. @Virg:  There will never be a last possible date because it is a universal human right to change nationalities. As for not having the banks rat you out, then consider that it can take anywhere from a few weeks to a year to get the CLN.  My timeline was, April 7, 2011, my appointment; April 16, 2012, reception in the mail of my CLN.

    @BenPloni, I understand. However, I wonder if you brought a written statement with you that you tried to insist that they accept (from State Department website):

    An individual who has performed any of the acts made potentially expatriating by statute who wishes to lose U.S. citizenship may do so by affirming in writing to a U.S. consular officer that the act was
    performed with an intent to relinquish U.S. citizenship. A U.S. citizen
    also has the option to formally renounce U.S. citizenship abroad in accordance with Section 349 (a) (5) INA.

    Those who have had problems have approaching the issue as one of asking the consulate permission to relinquish.  This is not the way to approach the Consulate.  You go in there and you tell them, “I have a written statement (prepared in advance) that I wish to give to a consular officer, indicating my intention of relinquishing my US citizenship when I became a citizen of country X.  Are you going to refuse to accept my written statement in violation of your duty and of my rights?” 

    This approach worked in my case because as soon as they were talking of a second appointment I said, “I’m just here to inform you of my relinquishment.  I don’t need a second appointment.”  Then they backed off the second appointment idea.  Also, another person I spoke with and told to take the hardline approach that I am suggesting received an immediate appointment (within two days at Halifax) when on the phone he said that he was just informing them of his relinquishment.  A third person, went into the Toronto consulate as well, and said, “I’m here to inform you that I’m not an American anymore and I want a CLN.”  He was done in a single appointment as well.

    Now I understand that they can be real bastards and refuse to accept your written statement.  When that happens, we want to hear about it, for  they are in violation of their stated policy and acting in an obstructionist manner.

    Also as for their desire to have a discussion, tell them they are wasting their time, because you haven’t been a US citizen for years now, what is the point of discussing it. The approach they are taking is incorrect. If you have relinquished upon becoming an Israeli, it is a fait accompli, you are not a citizen, and absolutely no discussion is required.

24. @Petros – You made/make some great points.  I tried multiple times to inform the clerk that I was informing then that I relinquished my US citizenship.  Through  what I hope was their obtuseness (I would hope) or their maliciousness, they insisted I come back.  But if they are incompetent or unwilling to grant me a CLN in one visit, what can I do?  I can’t force them to give me a CLN.

    “because you haven’t been a US citizen for years now, what is the point of discussing it. ”

    I thought the DOS has the authority and responsibility for determining if my action was an expatriating act based on the balance of probabilities, and they (through administrative law) determine if I did an expatriating act.

    Also see: http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/109065.pdf

    NATIONALITY CASES
    (CT:CON-407; 06-29-2012)
    a. Who may prepare a Certificate of Loss of Nationality (CLN) and
    accompanying documents:
    (1) INA 358 authorizes a diplomatic or consular officer to certify facts
    on which it is believed a U.S. citizen may have lost citizenship.
    (Note that the consular officer’s finding is not self-executing. Actual
    approval of the finding of loss of nationality can only be made by
    the Department, Form DS-4083, formerly; Form FS-348, is used to
    record and certify loss of citizenship. INA 358 applies to cases
    arising under Chapter IV NA (Section 401 to 410 inclusive), and to
    Chapter 3, Title III INA 349 to INA 357 inclusive. Cases involving
    loss under the Act of 1907 are rare; when these cases arise, the
    consular officer should seek advice from CA/OCS/L (Ask-OCS-LDom-Post@state.gov);
    (2) A CLN is not prepared when citizenship was lost through failure to
    comply with the retention provisions of former INA 301(b), prior to
    its repeal, effective October 10, 1978 (see 7 FAM 1131.7, 7 FAM
    1133.2-2 and 7 FAM 1133.5);
    (3) A consular officer at a U.S. embassy or consulate abroad may
    prepare a preliminary recommendation of a finding of loss of
    nationality in the form prescribed and transmit it to the Office of
    American Citizen Services and Crisis Management (CA/OCS/ACS)
    for approval.

25. @ Ben Ploni,

    So far, I am not impressed with their knowledge in the less routine, relinquishment matters.

    Likewise. I think it is lack of knowledge. I’m disappointed to read of your experience, but at this point I feel no reason to believe they are acting in bad faith.

    The consulate *should* know. But it’s not a perfect world, and asking higher-ups for guidance is not acting in bad faith. There’s a difference between “We’re not sure what to do about this” and “We don’t want to do this.”

    With guidance from HQ, there should be no problem. HQ in DC knows what to do – they issue s. (a)(1) CLNs all the time.

    Section 1220 of the DOS Manual 7 FAM 1220 Developing a Loss of Nationality Case details for the consulates the procedure to follow in dealing with relinquishments

    I see a dangerous situation to be one such as at Ottawa where people reported in 2011 and 2012 being firmly told that relinquishment was not possible with personnel invoking law that didn’t exist and being harassed in a confrontational manner about it (Disclaimer/Update – I heard recently that Ottawa’s stopped doing that).

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