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Wonder what really happens at the consulates? Find out in the Isaac Brock Society’s Consulate Report Directory, currently 274 pages of first-hand accounts of renunciation/relinquishment appointments, arranged by consulate location, along with links to further information and the required Dept of State forms.
Reports are updated as consulate visit stories are posted on the website.
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2013.02.12. As of today, this discussion now continues at Part 2. Please click here to go to Consulate Report Directory (Brockers describe their Consulate Meetings) Part 2.
@BenPloni, This is what I would do: I would have a written statement, and ask if they are going to refuse to accept the statement. If they do, then let’s publicize it. In any case, they will not grant the CLN in that first visit, but I don’t see how they can refuse a written statement.
@BenPloni,
As I see it, the clerk is not going to be the one making substantive or procedural decisions, so you got as far as you could with him. Your next meeting is next week, not a long delay, and you’ll be meeting with a consular officer who is tasked with making such decisions, sounds like the delay may be he’s unfamiliar with relinquishments and wants to get up to speed before he meets you.
If they’re in good faith, which I have no reason not to presume at this point, the consul will have sought and received guidance and/or reviewed the applicable FAM 1220 procedure, and it will go smoothly.
If they’re not in good faith (or really dumb) — neither of which I have any reason to presume, but if it turns out they are — then I’d ratchet up to plan B. I would not renounce. As I said I had a serious problem with a consulate obstructing my right to get an accurately-dated CLN. Even though I had to go above and beyond the local ACS chief, it was fixed very quickly and it was taken very seriously. DoS itself is not trying to trap people in retroactive citizenship against their will and against the law, although some consulates cause needless problems for relinquishers.
Absolutely correct. But if the facts are clear, there’s not much “determining” to do. The method of determination is not adversarial as in a court case. The vice consul looks at your 4079 and statement while you’re in the waiting area .If s/he has any questions, they’ll ask (they usually don’t). Generally the documents speak for themselves. You’ll know at the consulate if they’re okay with it. If they’re not, don’t renounce, get back in touch with us and we’ll take it from there.
At this point, I think they really are just unfamiliar with s. (a)(1) relinquishments as opposed to renunciations, not working on an agenda to cause trouble. My feeling is go with that assumption, go along to get along – but if that assumption turns out to be wrong, then pull out all the stops.
*As Petros says, be firm. Point out the requirements for relinquishment, that you have met them and already provided a statement to that effect, then request that the appointment for the Consul on the 5th February is to sign the necessary paperwork only. You effectively relinquished on the date you took Israeli citizenship and therefore have no need to reflect, etc, etc, as the relinquishing act has already happened. Point all this out to them immediately and see what happens. 3 appointments is just ridiculous.
I’m just going to ring the Bern embassy to see if I can get my appointment for renunciation booked.
@Petros & Medea:
I sent another e-mail as followed:
;
Dear Sir,
Thank you for responding, I have noted the appointment is confirmed for February 5.
I noted you wrote “However, this is not an action to be undertaken lightly, and our office has a duty to ensure that each potential case Loss of Nationality claim is processed properly, and that the consequences of this action are fully understood and appreciated.”
I would just like to clarify–as I have I understand the law and process–having been in touch with my advisers–that since I did the act with intent in 2002, I don’t believe there are any further consequences that I need to personally consider since the act has already been done per the law–thus I don’t need additional time to reflect on the matter. I already submitted a written affidavit that I naturalized in Israel with intent to relinquish.. Thus I don’t see any action on my part in another visit necessary other than providing any further necessary documents or information you need and signing the necessary forms so that you can verify the facts that have occurred at hand per DOS rules and submit the facts to Washington for CLN approval.
Thank you,……
Afterthought: I can’t say I enjoy telling bureaucrats how to do their job.
@ Medea,
Great idea to present the reasoning immediately in a pre-meeting e-mail.
@ BenPloni,
Sound great to me. Short and clear. No fun “telling bureacrats how to do their job,” but I think you did it really well in your e-mail’s conclusion.
@BenPloni, You’ll probably find they’re flustered over their meetings/correspondence with Dr. Zernik and now you’ve gone and presented them with a relinquishment and not a renunciation.
@Pacifica777, My reasoning was if you wait until you get to the meeting, they may have insisted on a second appointment possibly. If BenPloni can e-mail them and get it corrected before then it should just be a formality of getting the papers signed on the first appointment date.
@Medea: I’ve already been to my “first” appointment. I’ll definitely have to go back. Hopefully, they won’t insist I go to a third. Regarding flustered–well they ought to know this stuff–they have a monopoly on relinquishing service. In theory, I could try Tel-Aviv’s Embassy, but it’s still easier for me to go on the 8 Km to the consulate than the 50km to the Embassy now even if I have to make more trips. BTW, I saw the clerk had a copy of the “oath of renunciation”–when I saw it I said–I’m giving notice of relinquishing, not renouncing. Clearly, he didn’t get it. But if you need to renew a passport…well I can attest they are really good at that.
I still think that generic sounding e-mail response they sent me was a way for them to keep their dignity while they try to figure out what a relinquishment/back dated CLN is. Part of my e-mail motive was to hint to them that there are more experienced consulates (Canada and Europe) who know the process..maybe they should seek some guidance. Relinquishments/Renouncements in Israel are rare. They don’t even list the service on their website (except under the fee schedule)
@Medea, Good reasoning for sure. Definitely the most efficient way to handle it.
Uncle Tell,
I believe that a “disinterested witness” is a witness that has absolutely no ties to you whatsoever (a spouse cannot be a disinterested witness) – I’m not too sure if a friend can witness the renunciation documents.
Hell, just to put some levity in this, I’d say. Take the local “town drunk” in as a disinterested witness.
CO: “Are you a disinterested witness?”
\Drunk: ” A dishintereshted…what??? Well, If dat’s what ya want…I don’t give a flying %$&@!!!”
January 30, 2013:
My husband just got home from collecting the mail at our PO Box in Calgary. There were two registered packages which he signed for. Registered postage for the US Consulate was CAD$9.00 each to send these to us, so we can deduct that from the USD$450 each, our renunciation fees.
• Form DS-40083, Certificate of Loss of Nationality of the United States, sealed – approved on January 2, 2013 by Overseas Citizen Services for Oath of Renunciation on November 14, 2012;
• Administrative Review of a Finding of Loss of Nationality (“A person may initiate such a reconsideration by submitting a request to the nearest U.S. consular office or by writing directly to…”);
• Form DS-4080, “Oath/Affirmation of Renunciation of Nationality of United States” signed and sealed on November 14, 2012;
• Form DS-4081, “Statement of Understanding Concerning the Consequences and Ramifications of Renunciation or Relinquishment of U.S. Citizenship”; and
• Page 2: sealed and “Consular Officer’s Attestation, dated November 14, 2012”
• Cancelled US Passports, with notations: “Bearer Expatriated Self on 11/14/12 Under the Provisions of 3N9(a)(5) INA
Note: No Form 8854 nor any tax requirement information included in our packages from the Calgary US Consulate.
Our Summary:
Appointment Request: August 3, 2012 (appointment confirmed by email; information received by email; Questionnaire filled out and faxed back to Calgary Consulate, August 8, 2012
First Appointment: November 14, 2012 (documentation prepared from Questionnaire provided ready to go: DS-4080 “Oath/Affirmation of Renunciation of Nationality of United States; DS-4081 “Statement of Understanding Concerning the Consequences and Ramifications of Renunciation or Relinquishment of U.S. Citizenship” with second page “Consular Officer’s Attestation” that appeared before Consul of the United States of America Richard Hanrahan and read our statements after his explanation of its meaning and consequences of renunciation/relinquishment of United States citizenship and signed this statement under oath before him on 14 November 2012)
(Note: We had filled out and brought with us Forms 4079 and 4081, which the Calgary Consulate did not want even to look at. It was, however a useful exercise and we were prepared.)
Second Appointment: not required
CLN Rec’d: January 30, 2013
CLN Approved (Washington, DC): January 1, 2013
CLN Date: November 14, 2012
Again, our appointment with the Calgary US Consulate was a straight-forward, respectful experience. We found Calgary’s procedure very efficient and not at all a stressful experience. I am so grateful that we were lucky enough to go through this process at such a consulate. (All experiences at whatever consulate should be similar!)
We have absolutely no regrets and thank everyone that helped us get to where we are today! The Isaac Brock Society has given us (me especially) the courage and support needed.
We will now prepare for next steps:
• Canadian Tax Return for 2012;
• US Tax Return, 1040, for 2012 and all related additional forms (through November 14, 2012);
• Foreign Bank Account Report for 2012;
• Net Worth Statement; Completion of Form 8854 (Form 8854 is filed as an attachment to our expatriation year tax return. For people living outside the United States, the filing deadline for a U.S. income tax return is usually (but not always) June 15. We can also get a six month extension to file our tax returns. This means if we have a June 15 filing deadline, we can have as late as December 15 to file a timely income tax return.);
• Freedom for three out of four in our family.
*Congratulations, calgary411!
*@calgary411
Wooooooooooooooooof!!!
YES!!! I am so happy! Thanks for all the help and support you’ve given me on my CLN journey — I’m so glad you’re free now too!!!
Congratulations to both of you!!!
@AnonAnon and Woofy.
Thanks so much. I’m sure laughing! “Wooooooooooooooof” indeed!
@pacifica,
Thanks, Partner!
@Calgary Your news has made my day. Congratulations, couldn’t be happier for you!
That’s great news, Calgary411. I’m still pretty steamed that it has to be 3 out of 4, but that’s better than 0 out of 4. You need to find a rich, bored (but brilliant) lawyer who would take your son’s case to the UN as a human rights violation — pro bono of course.
All the best
DW
*Fantastic, Calgary411! Congratulations!
@ calgary411
Just came back in from snow shoveling — ugh! Read your terrific news — great big YAY !!! Congratulations Mr. and our very dear Mrs. Calgary411. It must feel so good to be posting your own report, although I know you were always heartened by the reports of others and will continue to be. I know you have taken all steps possible to protect your son and hopefully down the line there will be official freedom for him too. I’m tearing up a bit here so I’ll just leave it at that plus a huge thank you for all your help to everyone at Brock.
*Yay Calgary! You’ve been such a friend and support to so many here and I’m very happy for you and your husband. I know it must be bittersweet as your son cannot be officially free, but hopefully someday….
I’m still waiting for my CLN from Calgary. My relinquishment appointment was in mid October – trying not to obsess too much.
Again, congratulations. I’ll drink a toast to you tonight.
@Calgary411 Belated but no less delighted and loud CONGRATULATIONS!!!! It’s sooo great to hear that one of our last long-standing fellow sufferers and crusaders on this issue, who has been so helpful to so many people here and previously also on ExpatForum, has finally won closure! Great news about your husband, too!
Now if only there were some way to get your son out from under the Fell Beasts of Mordor …
nobledreamer, Arrow, iamquincy, Em and hijacked,
Words escape me — you’ll never know how valuable your continued support has been. And, don’t make me cry, Em. Thanks.
Fingers crossed for your CLN very, very soon, hijacked. Thanks for the toast! I’ll return it when you get yours.
Cheers, Schubert.
I hope you’ll always know how much your wisdom and friendship have meant in all of this. Thanks.
*Calgary411, What Fantastic News!! I am so happy for you and your husband!! You have been such a friend, I have appreciated all your kindness. I am soo soo Happy for you!! “Hallelujah“
Freedom is a Wonderful Thing!! And I believe your son will also be set free, just keep up the fight!!
Arrow,
Be on the look-out for me, OK?
In the meantime, I have contacted Abby Deshman, the lawyer who gave the great presentation at the Toronto FATCA Forum https://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/12/28/fatca-fact-finding-forum-part-3-of-9-fatca-privacy-rights-issues-abby-deshman/, with details of my son’s (and others like him) situation. She responded:
I also sent this at Deckard’s suggestion: