Well, its done, it’s over and a big step toward being free!
The first thing is that Toronto now has a system for keeping keys, cell phones and so on. Not big items, no purses and so on. You give it to the security guard – there is a storage cubby against the wall. You get a number, present it when you leave and get your belongings back. I do want to stress though, only small items. The non-citizen service area was packed and it felt so odd to feel that energy of so many people wanting to get visas, to get in to the US and I was so wanting to get out.
Mrs. A. went over all the paperwork, got it ready to be reviewed with vice-consul. I have always found her to be totally delightful and we laughed and joked a bit. Then waited quite a while (it felt like forever) and overheard another fellow who was in to relinquish. Had come to Canada in 1975, citizenship in 1979 and didn’t have a clue he was still USC until questioned at the border about US birthplace. As he passed to start filling in his paperwork, I asked him if he participated in the expat sites. He said not, though he sounded completely familiar with all the right things to know and say. It seemed there was another lady also there to renounce/relinquish but I couldn’t hear enough to be absolutely sure.
The interview was quite simple. I would prefer not to mention the fellow by name but it was not Eric. He also did my first meeting. He was very friendly, not formal in the least and there was no sense of needing to feel concerned about any topics being off-limits. A very comfortable conversation. When we were nearly done with signing everything, I asked him if there were more than usual numbers for renouncing. He said no, that it was about the same as always. I mentioned that I had heard the normal number in Toronto was 5 per year and he looked a bit perplexed. Then he asked me why would I think there would be more? I said, “You don’t know?” I then spoke about how important it was to understand it was not about taxes. He thought for a moment and said that he observed that most who came in mentioned that they just didn’t feel an allegiance to the US anymore, not in a negative way, just that they felt more Canadian. He seemed to understand that this would be a natural consequence of living abroad for a long time and didn’t have a problem with it. He indicated that retaining USC came with “responsibilities.” He thought some came in due to some of the press coverage when they otherwise might not have, but again, that it was more about “being Canadian” than anything else. I am sure he truly believes that. It made me wonder, if even the consular folks are completely aware of all the issues involved for us.
Then I was quite surprised that he said I would have to raise my right hand and repeat all of the wording on the actual oath page. I was really not prepared for that. But I did make a point of emphasizing the words “absolutely and entirely renounce my United States nationality…..I make this renunciation intentionally, voluntarily, and of my own free will…..” And then it was over. I asked for a copy of the oath and he said they were no longer doing that – that a couple of months ago, Washington had decided that until the renunciation was approved, and a CLN given, no copies of the oath were to go out, since the entire process hadn’t been completed. But that the actual date of the renunciation was today. I mentioned that I had concerns about trying to travel without that and he told me to just explain the situation to the CBP officer; he seemed to think it would be no problem. I told him it really didn’t matter since I had an EDL anyways. He seemed surprised by that and said “you do?” And I said “of course.” Judging from some of his reactions, I imagine some of the people that come in to renounce are not as aware as the people on this forum.
As I left the building and walked down Simcoe towards Queen, I noticed the buildings, all the different types of people walking around and felt “this is my city; this is where I belong.” I realized that while I may not have been very aware of it, I really had changed in all my time here and that, in a positive way, I wasn’t American; that there was no reason to feel bad about having to renounce. I can’t quite put it into words but it was unexpected and liberating! I definitely recommend it! 😉
Nobledreamer, You have great memory. Yes, my citizenship ceremony was in Vancouver, I live in Ontario now. You must have been great at playing Go Fish!
So, Toronto would likely be my Consulate. For medical reasons, getting around Toronto is a huge challenge for me. I would probably be easier for me to fly to Ottawa and go to the Embassy or even to Halifax and go to the Consulate there. Does anyone know if I would have to go to Consulate in my own province? I think someone posted somewhere (it may have even been a different website on in comments to a newspaper article) that one Canadian Consulate has a one or two year waiting list to renounce. I don’t know how accurate that is.
For now, I’m trying to stay under the radar. If IRS ever contacts me, I will tell them I have not been a US citizen for 40 years (and hope it works!) I am definitely going to get information from my Canadian citizenship file. If anyone else is interested, check out the excellent information which Schubert posted on the Renounce Discussion Thread.
Blaze: I live in the Toronto area and I am happy to help you get to the consulate. I could also help you fill out forms, set up the meeting, and go with you if you to your consulate appointment.
Baird, that’s very kind of you. I would likely have a friend come with me on the train. I have MS and my mobility isn’t great, which makes Toronto so challenging. If I do go to the Consulate, I would love to meet you while I’m in the city.
Did you need one meeting to relinquish or two? Like you, I relinquished long ago (1973) and I’m dumbfounded at this insane mess now.
Do you know if your CLN will be dated from the date of Canadian citizenship (your actual date of relinquishment) or the more recent date?)
Do you also know if there are any restrictions on how much time you can spend in US after relinquishing? I read somewhere it’s no more than 30 days per year. For the last 40 years, I’ve spent far less than that there, but my elderly mother’s health is now requiring more frequent and longer visits. Petros doesn’t think it is an issue, but I would like to know for sure.
Hi Blaze
Nobledreamer just emailed me and said she is in Toronto and would like to help you as well. We could make a day of it! You just need one meeting because you will go to the consulate with all forms and documents filled out in advance. My understanding is that the CLN is effective as of the date you “relinquish” at the consulate. However, I’ll believe that when I see it. As for traveling to the States, I would take the copies of the forms the consulate in Toronto gives you with you when you travel. I haven’t traveled to the U.S. since I went in October to apply for a SSN, and I only traveled on my Canadian passport as usual. I had no problems. However, if I were to go again, I would take the copies of the application to relinquish with me until my CLN arrives. My understanding is we continue to travel back and forth into the United States as we always have, staying no longer than any other non U.S. citizen. I have never stayed for any great length of time, however, if you want to stay for part or most of the winter, you should check the Snowbirds website for that information. We’re Canadian and treated as Canadians. Hope this helps.
Hi Nobledreamer.
Let me join the others in congratulating you on your move.
I live in a Scandinavian country, and found the US embassy personnel for the most part polite and professional. However, there was a strange moment during my interview with the Vice Consul when he seemed genuinely bothered about why anyone would want to renounce. I mentioned difficulties with opening a bank account at certain banks and he told me, “Why not go to another bank?” What really troubled me, however, was his warning me that such an act would create anxiety for me in the future. I didn’t bother asking him what he’d meant by this, but I was troubled by it and remember leaving the building not so much with a sense of liberation as a sense of loss. It’s been over a year since my renunciation, and I look at the renunciation as a seminal event in my life: before and after renunciation. In fact, my loss of citizenship is actually something that I think about every day––dwelling over it like one would a divorce or loss of a dear friend–and sometimes wonder if there might not have been another solution. But I realize these are purely sentimental thoughts and return again and again to the same conclusion: there was no other option.
In short, it is heartening to have found this site and realize that I am not alone.
Another anecdote: Like you, I asked if there were more renunciations than usual that year (2010) and he told me no, there were the usual four or five a year, mostly elderly people or retirees returning to their homeland of origin. Whether that’s changed, or going to change, remains to be seen. Each to his own, but I don’t see how Americans abroad can maintain peace of mind with the accounting complexities and potential draconian punishment suggested by theIRS.
I can’t imagine that employees of consulates all over the world are so cocooned that they don’t know what is happening. But I think they are either told to pretend not to or else they recognize it is not in their best interests to acknowledge the problems. The woman at the consulate in Halifax said nothing when I commented that i was surprised that there wasn’t a longer wait for an appointment. But the lawyer at the Megan Leslie meeting last week said both her office and the consulate are being overrun with calls for renunciation information. It may not have turned into actual renunciations, which might be interpreted as people changing their minds when thy realize what they will lose. But I think it’s a lot of people realizing they have some IRS stuff to do before they renounce
@CanuckDoc.
PRECISELY, my and my husband’s first renunciation appointment for next Tuesday is now cancelled but we will rebook as soon as a tax lawyer has thoroughly “audited” what we have thus far filed with the US and I am able to make amendments.
One oversight and not reported is my son’s Registered Disability Savings Plan, for which I am the Holder (he the Beneficiary when he is 60). This is entirely because I did not ask the correct questions and it didn’t enter my little mind that my adult son’s RDSP had to be reported in my US tax returns. I didn’t give this information to my CA, but this was not tax evasion — this was my ignorance. So now I am liable for penalties for not filing the 3520 and 3520A forms for this RDSP that the US considers a foreign trust, thus taxable each year for the Canadian Savings Plan Bonds and Grants portion (and my contributions?) given to Canada’s disabled who open or have opened for them an RDSP. This was to be used for my son’s retirement and is treated the same as a Canadian Registered Education Savings Plan or our Canadian Tax-Free Savings Accounts, also considered foreign trusts with the US. I did report this RDSP on last year’s FBAR. My son, born in Canada, raised in Canada, never lived in the US, never registered with the US thus becomes a SECOND-CLASS Canadian citizen as he does not get the same benefit for his RDSP as other REAL Canadian disabled account holders.
We are so lucky to have this savings vehicle in Canada for our disabled population. Not enough people know about the benefits of having this (financial literacy!) for their loved one. Other countries are looking closely at the model that PLAN (BC) took years to develop and have approved by our Canadian government. Those opening RDSPs for their disabled family member do need to be warned of US tax consequences though if either the Holder or the Beneficiary is a ‘US Person in Canada’. This is out and out discrimination.
Likewise I and my husband do not have the same retirement vehicles to choose from (and neither to you, dear US reader) as other Canadians. The TFSA gains are taxable each year in the US (and this will become more an issue as the $5,000/year contributions accumulate in these accounts).
And on it goes.
On the one hand the U.S. loves to talk about how giving its people are when it comes to assisting other countries when there are natural or unnatural disasters. We get bombarded with pictures of starving children, children who without schools etc. And yet in a situation like this where giving assistance to the less fortunate requires nothing at all of the U.S., other than the stroke of a pen, they balk and penalize.
These RDSP’s are not being built with a dime of American money, nor are our children derieving any kind of support from the U.S. Treasury, but still they want their pound of flesh. Just how dishonest and self serving can you get? The government grants to the RDSP should be treated the same way that government pensions and welfare payments are treated, which is that they are not subject to tax by the other country.
It all goes to show that the U.S.’s interest in its citizens, who live abroad is nothing more than one of taxation.
Does the U.S. even realize that the money the government puts in must stay there for ten years before it can be touched? This means that it even if they want to count it as income to the plan holder that it really doesn’t become so until this time period has elasped. If the account is touched before then the government money is pulled out.
It can never be counted as income to the plan holder because I would think that it would be a violation of our fiduciary responsibility to be both the holder and the one who gets the income? This is just absurd. And shows how shamelessly manipulative the U.S. is when it comes to the whole affair.
Calgary411, that is completly outrageous, but nothing about IRS surprises me anymore. Have you considered using Taxpayer Advocate Service. Just Me has written about his experiences with them on another blog.
Brash,
Since it has been a year since you went to the consulate to relinquish, I am wondering if you were contacted by the IRS afterward. Had you previously submitted back taxes?
@Brash,
I am so glad you wrote and told us your story.
I think I am finding out early on, that it is not so easy as it seemed on Friday. My husband and I went to the movies yesterday and in a scene where Freud and Jung travel to American and arrive in NY, there is a prolonged shot of the Statue of Liberty. I just absolutely lost it. I then realized that Friday was more of a mixture than I realized. That to get through it, there had to be a strong “front” if you will, which comes easily to me as I am trained as a classical pianist and having to project confidence, even when you don’t have a single shred of it, is what I do.
Another of us, a fellow named Mark Wittgen, was interviewed by Brian McKenna of the G&M shortly after the famous “meeting of 22 in Toronto in October.” He said exactly the same thing as you; that it felt like a divorce. I am not quite able to separate everything out to re-evaluate, but as you say, I keep wondering if I jumped the gun, was it possible there was another way out and could I have waited, at least until after the big announcement ( or not, as I suspect it will be) next Thursday. I think not, I had to make it stop, I just couldn’t live with that level of anxiety for another day.
But some answers remain the same. Even if I don’t get hit with FUBAR fines, the problems of reporting my husband’s confidential banking information does not disappear, nor does the fear of future fines for mistakes; amounts which should not include money that is not even mine. I am afraid I may have to file an 8938 for 2011 and if that were a yearly event, I would just go ballistic. Not to mention paying on TFSA’s, RRSP’s, things which we have to take the most advantage of as we are close to retiring and are not willing to take chances with investing, etc. I can easily picture problems with banks. And as calgary 411 said, “and on and on it goes……”
@Blaze — Thanks, I may be wrong but I think I cannot use Taxpayer Advocate Services until I actually have been levied penalties, etc. by the IRS. I’m not at that point yet, just anticipating since I now know that I was ignorant of the rules regarding my son’s RDSP and am therefore liable. But, for sure, I will be knocking on the TAS door when and if that need comes. I really have renewed confidence that the law firm I will now be working with will guide me through this — they know how ‘on the edge’ I am.
@nobledreamer – glad to hear that your meeting went well. It sounds more casual than my meeting in Calgary.
My rough day after renunciation was American Thanksgiving… very bittersweet that day.
Now I patiently check the mailbox and the front door every day wondering if today will be THE day that I receive either my CLN or a letter from the IRS!
peg11- what was your experience in Calgary like? You seem to imply that it was not all that enjoyable.
“I think I am finding out early on, that it is not so easy as it seemed on Friday.”
I “divorced” the US four years ago, and like you I had mixed feelings. As with everything of this nature, though, you should find yourself less bothered over time. In my experience you’ve now completed three and a half of the five stages: denial (“surely the IRS can’t do that”), anger (“how dare the IRS do that”), bargaining (“if I renounce that will stop the IRS doing that”), depression (“those ****s at the IRS messed up my life”), and acceptance (“stuff those idiots at the IRS”).
One important point is that by renouncing you’ve now drawn a line under the whole process. As bad as current laws are now, what with FATCA and the FBAR jihad, the US is certain to come up with something even worse in future. Levin’s “Stop Tax Haven Abuse Act”, perhaps? The entire direction of US tax law travel for the past decade or more has been emphatically and openly anti-expat. Even if the TAS directive is upheld, what difference will it make, and what comes next? What you don’t know is more dangerous than what you do. When the next, even worse law comes you’ll be insulated from it.
For me personally, the breaking point was HEART, and I got out four years ago. I didn’t want to go, but felt I simply had no choice. Watching FATCA unfold now, I’m doubly grateful that I didn’t wait. I expect you’ll feel exactly the same in a few years.
One final thing. You’ll probably find that people you talk to who are not directly affected by this won’t empathize. They’ll either not understand, brush it off as no big deal, or think you must have misinterpreted the situation. In my experience hardly anybody else really “gets it”. I’ve learned to live with that too. If someone asks “why?” these days I usually give a neutral response. I realize this doesn’t help at all to “get the message out”, as it were, but it’s the lesser evil. The alternative is that all my family and friends think I’m a paranoid kook!
@recalcitrantexpat – the renunciation appt in Calgary was very formal. There was no joking. I was given many scenarios why my life could be difficult after renunciation as a non-US citizen yet not one of them made me reconsider my decision to renounce. Essentially I had the impression that he thought I was making the wrong decision by renouncing.
If they had not deleted the renunciation thread at the other forum I could have shared more but all of my comments immediately after the appointment are now gone…
@peg11- thank you for the reply. It is quite shameful that they would do that but that is America for you. The arrogance that this country has is shameless. Civilization did not begin with America nor will it end when America’s existence comes to an end.
Rome did not see the time of its demise but it did come.
@ Watcher
You’ve hit the nail on the head! The five stages, that is so appropos.
I’ve tried reading The Stop Tax Haven Abuse Act and it seems it deals more with FFI’s. Though I wonder if I am just not good at reading between the lines.
Your comments about people not “getting it” are also right on. A dear friend, who is very good at understanding legal/tax issues implied that I was making a hysterical decision, totally ignored the one paragraph I sent from the TAS evaluation. I just wrote it off. I appreciate the advice. It will probably be as hard for me to learn to do that as it was when I first came here and the anti-american comments were in my face. Challenges, challenges….
@nobledreamer- you are not guilty of not being able to understand the “Stop Tax Haven Abuse Act” The Act is suppose to be targeting FFI’s that are actively soliciting American clients who want to hide their assets from the IRS. This is an action that Canadian Banks did not engage in nor did U.S. citizens who were resident in Canada.
The problem with the Act is the way in which it is being applied in a simplified way that makes ALL U.S. citizens out to be tax cheats if they have bank accounts in other countries. It would be like if the police in my old crime ridden neighborhood were to assume that all of the neighborhoods residents were criminals and to treat us accordingly.
Based upon this same model of “guilt by association” the IRS is assuming that because we share the same neighborhood as is occupied by the offshore tax cheats, that we must also be cheaters. The only way for them to know whether or not we are cheating is to subject us all to the same rules. We must on a yearly basis submit to an IRS examination so that they can determine whether or not we are indeed innocent. There is no such thing as being innocent until proven guilty. They just have to suspect, based purely upon your residing outside of the geographical boundaries of the U.S., that you “may” be guilty. Talk about a case of unjustly “profiling” a demographic group.
@baird68 (or anyone else that knows)
I read your post about having your change of name registered with the US consulate. I am not getting married, but for personal reasons am adding a baptismal name through the Italian court system. I can’t figure out if the US will accept this name change since they only mention divorce or marriage certificates, or name changes which occur in the US legal system.
I would like my CLN to be in my legal name…Any ideas on how I can get them to use the new name? Will they just note the difference on the passports and issue accordingly, or would I have to try and apply to get a US passport issued in my new name first and then renounce? Anyone know if the US recognises name changes that occur outside of the US or is this another area where everything has to be done in the US? 🙁
Thank you in advance for any assistance!
@DonPomodoro
I had my name changed for for a legal reason in Quebec. It was accepted with appropriate documentation by the US consulate in Montreal when I applied for a passport in 2002. It will be the name under which I will renounce.
Somebody here had a question about the effective date of one’s US citizenship relinquishment:
<>
I found this answer elsewhere on the internet, as I had been looking for the same answer – I became a Canadian citizen in 1978 and informed at the time that I had given up my US citizenship because the US did not recognize dual citizenship:
“Code s877A(g)(4) provides that citizenship will be lost on the earliest of:
(1) the date the taxpayer renounces their US nationality before a diplomatic or counsellor officer in a foreign embassy
(2) the date the taxpayer furnishes the US Department of State with a signed statement of voluntary relinquishment of US nationality confirming either:
(a) naturalisation in non-US jurisdiction
(b) taking an oath or making an affirmation or other formal declaration of allegiance to a non-US jurisdiction
(c) serving in the armed forces of a non-US jurisdiction, or
(d) accepting employment by the government of a non-US jurisdiction
(3) the date the US Department of State issues a certificate of loss of nationality to the taxpayer, or
(4) the date a court of the US cancels a naturalised citizen’s certificate of naturalisation.
While Code s877A(g)(4) recognises four ways in which citizenship may be relinquished, in most cases the taxpayer will submit two forms to the US embassy or consulate in the country where the individual resides: a ‘Statement of Understanding Concerning the Consequences and Ramifications of Relinquishment or Renunciation of US Citizenship’ and Form DS-4079 ‘Questionnaire: Information for Determining Possible Loss of US Citizenship’, along with copies of the taxpayer’s US and foreign passports.”
I plan on filing all of my FATCAT , FUBAR, and IRS forms for the last 5 years asap and then arrange to relinquish. I don’t see any changes coming soon on the horizon with regard to US taxation, so the sooner the better. I totally detest this intrusion on my life (and my Canadian spouse) after having absolutely no financial ties to the US for 40 years!!
@Bushwacker – Thanks for writing. Sounds like you’ve got a good grip on your situation. Though there is a distinction between relinquishing and renouncing. If you believe that you lost your US citizenship by by becoming a Canadian in the 70’s, you might wait before filing any forms as those actions demonstrate the actions of a USC. Other actions that can negate a relinquishment request are using a US passport, filing FBARs, etc. You might want to see if you can get a CLN backdated to the day of your relinquishment, which will relieve you of the requirements to renounce – certifying you’re compliant for the 5 years prior and all that. You might find it useful to go to an earlier topic here: http://isaacbrocksociety.com/2011/12/12/relinquish-dont-renounce-if-you-can/