Well, its done, it’s over and a big step toward being free!
The first thing is that Toronto now has a system for keeping keys, cell phones and so on. Not big items, no purses and so on. You give it to the security guard – there is a storage cubby against the wall. You get a number, present it when you leave and get your belongings back. I do want to stress though, only small items. The non-citizen service area was packed and it felt so odd to feel that energy of so many people wanting to get visas, to get in to the US and I was so wanting to get out.
Mrs. A. went over all the paperwork, got it ready to be reviewed with vice-consul. I have always found her to be totally delightful and we laughed and joked a bit. Then waited quite a while (it felt like forever) and overheard another fellow who was in to relinquish. Had come to Canada in 1975, citizenship in 1979 and didn’t have a clue he was still USC until questioned at the border about US birthplace. As he passed to start filling in his paperwork, I asked him if he participated in the expat sites. He said not, though he sounded completely familiar with all the right things to know and say. It seemed there was another lady also there to renounce/relinquish but I couldn’t hear enough to be absolutely sure.
The interview was quite simple. I would prefer not to mention the fellow by name but it was not Eric. He also did my first meeting. He was very friendly, not formal in the least and there was no sense of needing to feel concerned about any topics being off-limits. A very comfortable conversation. When we were nearly done with signing everything, I asked him if there were more than usual numbers for renouncing. He said no, that it was about the same as always. I mentioned that I had heard the normal number in Toronto was 5 per year and he looked a bit perplexed. Then he asked me why would I think there would be more? I said, “You don’t know?” I then spoke about how important it was to understand it was not about taxes. He thought for a moment and said that he observed that most who came in mentioned that they just didn’t feel an allegiance to the US anymore, not in a negative way, just that they felt more Canadian. He seemed to understand that this would be a natural consequence of living abroad for a long time and didn’t have a problem with it. He indicated that retaining USC came with “responsibilities.” He thought some came in due to some of the press coverage when they otherwise might not have, but again, that it was more about “being Canadian” than anything else. I am sure he truly believes that. It made me wonder, if even the consular folks are completely aware of all the issues involved for us.
Then I was quite surprised that he said I would have to raise my right hand and repeat all of the wording on the actual oath page. I was really not prepared for that. But I did make a point of emphasizing the words “absolutely and entirely renounce my United States nationality…..I make this renunciation intentionally, voluntarily, and of my own free will…..” And then it was over. I asked for a copy of the oath and he said they were no longer doing that – that a couple of months ago, Washington had decided that until the renunciation was approved, and a CLN given, no copies of the oath were to go out, since the entire process hadn’t been completed. But that the actual date of the renunciation was today. I mentioned that I had concerns about trying to travel without that and he told me to just explain the situation to the CBP officer; he seemed to think it would be no problem. I told him it really didn’t matter since I had an EDL anyways. He seemed surprised by that and said “you do?” And I said “of course.” Judging from some of his reactions, I imagine some of the people that come in to renounce are not as aware as the people on this forum.
As I left the building and walked down Simcoe towards Queen, I noticed the buildings, all the different types of people walking around and felt “this is my city; this is where I belong.” I realized that while I may not have been very aware of it, I really had changed in all my time here and that, in a positive way, I wasn’t American; that there was no reason to feel bad about having to renounce. I can’t quite put it into words but it was unexpected and liberating! I definitely recommend it! 😉
I’m so, so happy for you, my friend, and the liberation you feel. Thanks for the excellent summation of your very important day.
Congratulations! And thank you for posting this recounting of your experience. I have my appointment in February and I hope that mine will go as well as yours did. My hope is that I will get to do everything in one visit. I don’t need any additional time to think about making a decision that I thought I already made almost 13 years ago.
Congratulations as well!.
I am curious as to the final 1040 and FBAR filings.
Say you file your last tax return in April of this year…and it takes longer than a year to get your CLN….do you have to file in 2013 as well?
In other words, if hypothetically it took 3 years to get your CLN…do you just file your final return this year and be done with it?
I am wondering about someone who decides to ‘relinquish’ as opposed to ‘renouncing’.
By relinquishing, filing another return after the act would look like you are exercising your USC rights (again), somewhat along the same lines of applying for a Passport. Would that not bring you back onto circulation with the IRS again (?)
Thank you!
2011 will be the last full year of tax returns/FUBARs. As we are abroad, we get an automatic filing extension until June, without having to apply for it (though if any tax is owed, it must be paid by the April deadline).
Filing for 2012 does not have to deal with when the CLN is received. There is no reason to expect my renunciation would be refused as the process itself emphasizes that you are renouncing voluntarily and without duress. That is the only standard by which DOS can/cannot issue the CLN. As I understand it, for 2012, from Jan 1-19, I file a 1040, for Jan 20, as I am no longer USC, I file 8854 and for the rest of 2012, I will have to file a 1040NR as I have two US-source investments (which I will now move here, even if I have to pay the tax on them). If I had managed to move them before today, I would be finished when the 8854 was filed.
Peter or Schubert could give more info but my understanding is that you should not file any taxes for the reasons you mention.
@recalcitrantexpat (just love that name!)
I remember that Baird68, from the previous forum, was in some doubt as to whether they would allow her to relinquish though they apparently did. This was in Toronto and in one visit. I do not remember all of the particulars. Perhaps Petros knows more details? I am pretty sure the details disappeared with the “Renunciation” Thread.
Good luck with yours – when in February will you be going?
@calgary411
Oh, it was so much better and different than what we talked about. Thank you so much for your ongoing support and friendship. It has made all the difference in the world.
On the 1st
@nobledreamer
Congratulations, and welcome to the club!
One quick note on your 2012 US tax returns. The 1040/1040-nr split year treatment you describe sounds correct, but you may want (well, not exactly “want”, but you know what I mean!) to file FBARs for Jan 1-19 2012 also. Assuming you filed any before, that is, and didn’t just blow off the whole ridiculous requirement.
The IRS has, typically, never published FBAR guidance for part-year residents, but I was in a similar situation a few years ago and queried this with them. They asked for what were in effect part-year FBARs — that is, list accounts held and their maximum value for that period only. Yes it’s a pain, seems insane and cannot be any use for the IRS beyond satisfying a tick-box requirement. But that’s the IRS for you.
Congratulations. I think the same way.. you just lose touch with America. I also thought it good that they “know” of the “responsibilities” and perhaps that these responsibilities are forcing peoples’ hands.
I also firmy believe that the US doesn’t want us to live overseas in order to prevent all of this in the first place, due in part to the new rules (FATCA).
Again Congrats…and I don’t want to be a wet blanket here…but have another ‘hypothetical’ question.
Has there ever been, (to anyones knowledge), an instance where one has gone thru the renounce/relinguish process only to find that the IRS has deemed them “non-complinant” due to some stupid 1040 tabulation error?
If so…what happens then…do you have to start all over again??
Thanks Nobledreamer. great to know it went so smoothly for you.
I still continue to believe I gave all that up when I became Canadian in 1973–because that clearly is what US Consulate told me. I’m not brave enough to go the Consulate or even phone them.
I keep feeling like this is all a bad nightmare and that I will wake up and it will all be over. Wishful thinking!!
It sounds empowering – I’m looking forward to mine.
@nobledreamer
Congratulations!! Glad it went well for you!!
@Watcher,
Thank you for reminding me of that; I actually thought it was a good idea, all things considered.
@Mach 7
I don’t think that a mere error would make you non-compliant. They
would probably just send you a bill if you owed money. If you refused to pay it, I have no idea what they would/could do. Worst case scenario would be to deem you a “covered expatriate?”
I don’t know if they could apply that requirement “backwards” like that however, we have all read how the new OVDI includes freedom for them to change the penalties at any time they like and how they can end the program at any time they like. It’s anyone’s guess (unless we want to search the IRS site for it…) 😛
@ Blaze
I understand this feeling all too well. However, I think it is totally possible to phone the Consulate without any fear of being revealed to the IRS. I’ve only dealt with the Toronto consulate but every time I have been there (many times over the last 30 years), they have always been polite, helpful and so on. Their whole purpose is to “serve” and from my experience, they exemplify that. You could block your number from being shown and establish that for now, you would prefer not to identify yourself. Would that work?
I seem to recall that your “expatriating act” was in a different city (Vancouver?) than you now live but am not sure about that. Perhaps you could ask around and get a sense for what other people have gone through at whatever consulate you would be going to….
I also wished I could wake up and it would just be gone. Four months of a living nightmare. I slept so well last nite. Had totally forgotten what that felt like!
@geeeze
I also wonder just how clear they are about the whole process we are going through. I kind of doubt it though as who would bother to read all the stuff we’ve read (esp trying to decipher the IRS-speak) if they were not going through it? It would probably be rather minimal, like when I come home from a movie and am curious about an idea or person so I search it, read a site or two and that’s about it. And my guess is that consular people probably do not have to file FUBARs.
I don’t know about that – do you really think they are that isolationist?
@recalcitrantexpat – We’ll be rooting for you! 11 more days!!!
@saddened123 – thanks! How goes it with the SSN issue?
@A broken man on a Halifax pier – it definitely was. When are you going?
@nobleddreamer, I am very excited for you, I know you must feel at peace since you have renounced..We still have not got the SSN yet, son is having a hard time getting off work. He is going to have to just take it off soon.. another thing is going to be the weather, we are not going to kill ourself for the IRS, weather is going to be tricky this time of year. I called Zoe Friday and she is going to call me on Monday. Congratulations Again!!
@nobledreamer Probably in March.
Thank you, nobledreamer. I have to admit that I am rather nervous about the meeting.
@Nobledreamer – In my first meeting, they played dumb with me when I mentioned the FATCA, asking me “Why wouldn’t a bank want to open an account for you? Isn’t it more money for the bank…?” I said, “I have no idea.. they say I’m American, so they so NO! That’s why I’m here;” Later, when the microphone was turned off, I heard FATCA being very “controversial” in a sentence. I think they have to be complete idiots to not know what is going on.
In your case, it sounded to me like they are “well aware”. I don’t blame the State Department employees for maybe not knowing a couple of details, after all, they are just people who got jobs in the foreign service. If they have the general idea that we are “persecuted” or US citizenship requires “additional responsibilities” that’s good enough for me 🙂
And I’ll say it for the whole world to see once again, I live in a country that has made great progress, but still not to the level of stability of the UK or Canada. Everyone I know here with a bank account in another country just reports it on their tax return. ** There are no threats from the government yet most people do it!! ** They do it because every incoming transaction is screened by the Central Bank and they don’t want problems later.
The system in the US is essentially the same (electronic), but they just likes to “pick a fight over everything” unfortunately.
Congratulations on your freedom Nobeldreamer! I hope to be right next to you very soon!
Hi Nobledreamer. Congratulations on your liberation! (I’m also glad to hear the Toronto consulate is now providing a safe box for cell phones etc. with the security guard).
Mrs. A. called me two weeks ago to arrange the return of my marriage license. I had sent it to her after my relinquishment meeting to confirm the change of my last name from my birth certificate and Canadian citizenship document. During that telephone conversation she mentioned that my CLN may arrive as early as April as there have been extra people hired to handle the increased volume of paperwork. She didn’t clarify where these people were employed, but I assume she meant at The State Department. I asked if I would get the CLN mailed to me or would I be picking it up at the consulate. She said that it could be mailed to me, but if I picked it up, I could pay the fee at the same time. FEE?? I told her I didn’t know there was a fee, and why would I have to pay one? She thought a bit and checked my file and then said she was mistaken. In my case, there would be no fee as I had relinquished my U.S. citizenship (when I became a Canadian over 30 years ago). She also said that when the CLN arrives, there will be an accompanying letter. She advised me to make several copies of that letter and take one with me when I cross the border.
Again, congratulations.
Baird68,
I am curious when you went through the relinquishing at the consulate in order to calculate the time between then and if you get your CLN in April.
My relinquishing occurred on November 21, 2011.