Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
Waldemar , it is the same either way. They won’t care . Do whichever is easier.
@Waldemar
I was in the same situation as you a year earlier. I filed 1040 up to my renunciation date and since I didn’t have any US source income I wasn’t required to file 1040NR for the remainder of the year.
@Sonja
As others have stated, you will definitely not> lose your SS benefits if you renounce. Regarding the sale of your house, it would most likely be best to do that after renouncing, so as to avoid any basis for claims from the IRS.
@badger
He was special, I’ll pass it on. As they renounced years ago I don’t imagine there were any problems with the US system.
Thank you so much everyone for quick response. I only assumed that I would lose my social security with renouncing! I’m relieved to here I won’t. Pacifa777 and Bubblebustin, thank you for the links. Selling the house is in the future. I am going to call the Toronto U.S. consulate today to see if I can schedule an appt. This site is such a godsend. I love the stories that actually walk you through the renouncing experience at the consulate. I pity people who are oblivious as to what’s going on as I believe time is of the essence to extricate ones self from the U.S. I try to pass on this site to anyone I can who is struggling with finding proper information. Again, many thanks.
@WhatAmI, Sonja
“If only one spouse is subject to US income tax, only his or her portion of the capital gain from the sale of their jointly owned principal residence is taxable on US return.”
http://uscrossbordertaxblog.com/us-federal-income-tax-gains-on-sale-of-your-home-part-1/
@Sonja, you may be able to keep your SSN. But let’s hope that the procedure will remove your butt tatoo.
@notamused says and Broken Man
Thanks so much for all your replies! It really helps a lot. I am going to attempt to contact the irs either in London or the continent to see if they can shed some more light on this.
It was just that someone said I would nmaybe need to use tax credits to stave of my foreign income taxed for the remainder of the year (after expatriation). I was totally blown away that I would maybe have to report my non us source income AFTER giving up citizenship. I see now it should not be so.
FWIW I renounced in Oslo last spring. 3 weeks to get an appointment, another 4 to recieve CLN. Very good service.
@waldemar, if doing FBAR — now FinCEN form 114 and online only (FinCEN: “your inconvenience is our #1 concern”) — you should also only need to list holdings up to when you renounced.
That said, I don’t know how you do this any more. With the paper forms you wrote ‘Part year return, up to ‘ on the top. Of course, and entirely predictably, the online form doesn’t seem to cater for part year returns at all. Maybe a question for BSAEFilingHelp@fincen.gov. If you ask them please post the answer back. I’m sure quite a few folk will be in the same boat this year.
@watcher, thanks for that. FBAR is history for me. Luckily I wont be needing to file them for 2013. I never reached the limtis. too bad : )
Im going to do some research and get back to the forum after the weekend.
Another thing I was wondering is if I am allowed to use the FEIE for the part of 2013 I had to report. Could anyone say if it is possible to use 2555 ez for the 117 days I was a citizen in 2013. Also if its possible to use personal deductions.
Thakns again.
@waldemar
I hope you meant “limit” not “limits”, as the $10k threshold for FBAR filing is based on the sum of ALL of your accounts, including those you are signatory on.
@Bubblebustin
Thanks for the concern! I meant limit. I am quite an FBAR expert since 2011 as we all have become.
I wish I could say the same for the many expats I meet abroad.
Still to this day when I explain the what FatCA is to my colleagues and friends here abroad they have the look like I don´t know what I am talking about.As if it is some crazy story I made up.
@waldermar, many others have said the same. But if they don’t believe they need to be filing US tax returns simply tell them to check for themselves. They only need to go to the IRS wesbite and search for “US citizens abroad” and there the info will be – from a source that can’t be ignored or poo-pooed. Or even simpler, if their US passport is from 2007 onwards the last page clearly states that US citizens must file returns no matter where they live in the world.
@waldemar
That’s because what’s expected of us incomprehensible.
Was just double checking re the FBARs. We have to look out for each other 🙂
I had my appointment at the U.S. embassy … and it didn’t go well.
Just a recap – I am a dual citizen by birth (us/can). I worked for the federal government. I requested a CLN backdated to when I began working for the government. I had the contents of my employee file, including the oath that I signed.
I was told that the only way a dual citizen by birth could get rid of U.S. citizenship was to 1) renounce 2) commit an act of treason.
Has anyone else been told this?
The agent told me that she was going to recommend that my request be denied. I insisted that she send all of my documentation to the lawyers in Washington anyway. She said she had denied three of these cases recently.
Is there anything else that I should/could do? Any advice for me?
As you might imagine, I’m pretty upset.
@mykitty, unbelievable! Absolutely not true! What city did you go to?
@WhatAmI – I went to Toronto.
I don’t think the agent even knew of 4(a) and/or 4(b) of the Section 349 of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1481).
Any ideas of what I can/should do?
@mykitty,
Did she take your forms and send them to Washington DC? If so, I guess you can only wait. If not, you could make an appointment in another city. Was your government work before July 2004?
@WhatAmI
I insisted that she take my forms and send them to Washington, so hopefully she does. I signed them and gave her my Xpresspost envelope.
I think there was someone else on this forum who did the same thing (insisted that the forms be sent to Washington even though the agent recommended against it), and it worked out – she got her CLN.
That is so bloody wrong.
Might be a good idea to contact the Minister-Counsel (basically Consul General for Canada) at the embassy — unfortunately, I think Sylvia Johnson has left that post (actually things had been going so smooth for so long, I can’t think of anyone having been in touch with her for quite a while, but I think she transferred elsewhere a while ago)– or to contact the Western Hemisphere office in Washington. Because this isn’t even a judgement call. This agent doesn’t know the law.
I would have suggested contacting the ACS chief at Toronto (who was terrific), but I’m not so sure as I would have been. I think they got a new one a couple of months ago — and that could be the root of the problem. Something’s obviously gone very awry at Toronto. We got another bad report about them a month ago (and one not-so-good, though not alarming, one), which was surprising because they were always very good to deal with.
I think maybe you could get it straightened out fairly quickly because it’s a cut-and-dried situation of the agent not knowing the law, as opposed to an agent’s interpretation of if you fit the criteria, which could be subjective.
The person who got a negative recommendation overruled was Prairie Girl. Here’s links to her comments.
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/relinquishment/comment-page-21/#comment-797678
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2011/12/12/relinquish-dont-renounce-if-you-can/comment-page-9/#comment-990561
And good on you for knowing the law and standing your ground!
Any experiences with doing taxes post-renunciation? The IRS states that you are subject to the exit tax if you do not file 5 years of tax PRIOR to your expatriation date. I plan to attempt a relinquishment with a back dated CLN (1999) but because I was 16 when I performed my expatriating act of getting a Canadian citizenship, I am concerned they will deny me. As a result, they would do a renounce instead which means I am subject to the IRS and the back taxes. Any suggestions? Can I do them after my appointment with the consulate or would this be post-expatriation date? Could I just do them before completing the Form 8854. I am just trying to have a back up plan and don’t want to get screwed over by the exit tax too.
I am also scared to death of all the hefty penalties. Someone please share some positive stories, preferably Canadian since we pay high taxes already.
@mykitty I assume this is a relinquishment request which means the USA cannot get more money for a couple more rounds of ammunition for an AK47 in Afghanistan. I renounced in Vancouver last Sept and the $450 price seems like a good deal for a peace of mind. AttitusinCanada relinquished and it is taking forever the CLN to arrive (over 6 months now; it took me 4 months and we visited the respective consulates both in early Sept). My theory is that the State Dept takes longer to decide about relinquishment since it is a grey area compared to renouncing.
I was also a dual citizen from birth, I thought that I had a case for relinquishment but was told I must renounce. I didn’t put up a fight, I just renounced and was happy that it was over and done with. As for all the scare tactics, I have not filed 5 years of taxes or submitted the 8854 form. So far IRS has not been concerned enough to send a letter to ask about taxes or my now late 8854. I have not even been sent a Certificate of Covered Expatriate to hang on my wall. To anyone new read up here, and stay away from experts/professionals they will take your money. Two years after renouncing the IRS has not asked me for anything.
This is taken from the Instructions for Form 8854. Still a little confused. Plain English someone.
“Date of Tax Expatriation
For purposes of filling out Part I, the
date of your expatriation is the later of
the date you notified the relevant
agency of your expatriating act or the
date Form 8854 was first filed in
accordance with these instructions.
Oct 30, 2013 Cat. No. 24874EPage 2 of 10 Fileid: … ions/I8854/2013/A/XML/Cycle07/source 14:58 – 30-Oct-2013
The type and rule above prints on all proofs including departmental reproduction proofs. MUST be removed before printing.
Apply the rules of section 7502 to
determine the date on which this form is
filed. Generally, the postmark date is the
filing date.
Until you file Form 8854 and
notify the Department of State
or the Department of Homeland
Security of your expatriating act, your
expatriation for immigration purposes
does not relieve you of your obligation to
file U.S. tax returns and report your
worldwide income as a citizen or
resident of the United States.”
@ Kermitzii,
I’ve can’t figure out any pattern at all. We’ve had several relinquishment CLNs turn up within 1 month, and a few renunciations take close to a year. It’s a pretty small database to rely on, though. One thing it seems to me is that North America (mainly Canada) often takes a long time (6 mo to a year for either type of CLN) and Europe, Middle East, Pacific were pretty fast. But now it seems that Europe and Pacific are slowing down too.
On the back page of the CLN there is contact information for a review of the CLN. If someone is not happy with the date of the CLN or thinks the reason stated should be relinquishment and not renouncement, it may not hurt to ask to have the CLN reviewed. I considered that myself, but did not try.