Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@Jane, you can advise them of the pros and cons, but the decision is up to them. How old are they? From the State Dept website:
“F. RENUNCIATION FOR MINOR CHILDREN/INDIVIDUALS WITH DEVELOPMENTAL OR INTELLECTUAL DISABILITIES
Citizenship is a status that is personal to the U.S. citizen. Therefore parents may not renounce the citizenship of their minor children. Similarly, parents/legal guardians may not renounce the citizenship of individuals who lack sufficient capacity to do so. Minors seeking to renounce their U.S. citizenship must demonstrate to a consular officer that they are acting voluntarily, without undue influence from parent(s), and that they fully understand the implications/consequences attendant to the renunciation of U.S. citizenship. Children under 16 are presumed not to have the requisite maturity and knowing intent to relinquish citizenship; children under 18 are provided additional safeguards during the renunciation process, and their cases are afforded very careful consideration by post and the Department to assess their voluntariness and informed intent. Unless there are emergent circumstances, minors may wish to wait until age 18 to renounce citizenship.”
https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal-considerations/us-citizenship-laws-policies/renunciation-of-citizenship.html
Right now, 23 (son) & 18 (daughter). Both in uni & doing well in AU. Dual-Citizens. Their father, never planned for them- hence my giving up & leaving.
I hate that I’m frightened of my own country.
@Jane, have you talked to them about how they feel about the situation? It’s their decision to make, if they feel they want to hold on to it for a while longer that’s their right. As said you can advise them, give them your views, but ultimately it’s up to them to decide whether to keep their US citizenship or not.
If they don’t want to keep it then they may as well go ahead and do the renunciation as soon as they can arrange it before they get dragged into the tax filing side of things as well.
Hello all. I may have asked this a while back, but I want to see if there is anyone with further updates. I have dual U.S./Irish citizenship and reside in Scandinavia. I also work as an airline pilot, which further complicates my taxes every year as I spend a lot of time in international airspace, which means the percentage of my income earned in international airspace does not qualify for the foreign earned income exemption. Between that hassle, being denied a mortgage due to my U.S. citizenship, my soon to be enrolled in a company pension plan, and all the other issues we all face, I am again looking seriously at dropping my U.S. citizenship. Here is my issue and I wish to know if anyone has had similar concerns: the United States requires all foreign airline crew members to acquire a crew visa, even if citizens of a visa waiver country. So upon renunciation I would immediately have to apply for the visa. Would my U.S. passport still be valid for travel to the United States while awaiting my CLN, and/or would I have to apply for my visa after the renunciation appointment or wait until the CLN arrives? Has anyone else had to apply for a U.S. visa after renunciation and been denied or had issues?
Thank you so much!
@Jane
If your kids were born in Australia, much easier to evade FATCA and stay off the US radar. They can ignore US citizenship without needing to renounce, use an Australian passport to enter the US if need be.
@Andrew: the United States requires all foreign airline crew members to acquire a crew visa, even if citizens of a visa waiver country. So upon renunciation I would immediately have to apply for the visa. Would my U.S. passport still be valid for travel to the United States while awaiting my CLN
Officially per 7 FAM 1227(e), State Department say they’ll give you back your passport for travel to the US while you’re waiting for a CLN:
https://fam.state.gov/fam/07fam/07fam1220.html#M1227
What we’ve heard anecdotally is that they’ll only actually give it back for dire need, not routine travel.
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2015/03/05/state-department-claims-renunciants-are-still-u-s-citizens-until-cln-approved/comment-page-2/#comment-6085313
@ Andrew,
I don’t know the answer to your question, but I do know we’ve certainly had instances of a consulate official giving incorrect information regarding renunciation, which may have been the case with B (the commenter who provided personal anecdotal evidence). The text of 7 FAM 1227(e), has remained unchanged since its inception in February 2015 and it does not mention “dire need,” “death” or “illness.” For certainty, I’d suggest contacting DoS/Citizen Services/Legal Affairs in Washington and getting an answer in writing directly from them.
Re: “.. the United States requires all foreign airline crew members to acquire a crew Visa….”
It may not be relevant in this particular case but for accuracy it should be stated that the requirement applies to “all foreign airline crew members **other than citizens of Canada or Bermuda**”.
@Nononymous
No, they were US born, unfortunately (how crazy to have to say “unfortunately”). I started a new relationship & moved to AU with them in 2007. It isn’t only the FATCA issue, it’s everything else going on in the USA that I find disturbing & frightening (people are now used to mass killings on a daily basis! & laws are being enacted to ALLOW gun silencers!?). My son, right now, has a super-fund through his tutoring at uni & now his paid-internship…and he isn’t even actually employed yet. He’ll be working as a software engineer, so there will be likely a good income & I don’t want the IRS to stick their claws into his hard-earned money. I also don’t like that the USA can just up & change or implement “whatever & whenever”, retroactively even, & that NO ONE can 100% say what is or isn’t acceptable when it comes to filing in the first place. I agree that they will have to decide– but the way things are heading, I don’t see a reason to retain that albatross. …
“ALLOW gun silencers!”
Please educate yourself on this and MANY of the other issues people love to ‘cut and paste’ from the evening news and other media outlets.
Gun silencers DO NOT make a fire arm “silent”. The knock a few decibels off to lesson the damage to the shooter’s ears. You can still hear them and hear them easily.
@ Andrew
I was allowed to keep my US passport post renunciation and told I should use it to enter the US until my CLN arrived, it would then be exchanged (and hole punched) either by post or in person for the CLN. There was no mention of an emergency basis but I believe others here have reported a different procedure depending on the Consulate used.
Who would determine an emergency? Isn’t the ability do keep your job and livelihood an emergency?!
I suggest you email your Consulate for Clarity or failing that contact the State Dept ,
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/department-of-state-forms-and-procedure-manuals-for-renouncingrelinquishing/
This Forum is not the place for NRA propaganda.
Oh, but control advocacy is fine? I see. No bias here.
Excuse me, Japan T. I know what a silencer is & what it does & doesn’t do. I came from a hunting family. I had a license to carry a concealed weapon, for years. I reloaded cartridges for my Rugar Redhawk .44 w/Leupold scope, hunted, & was excellent in target shooting. Try not to be so dismissive when you don’t know what you assume to know.
The bill is called the “Hearing Protection Act” & it’s 100% BS NRA propaganda. Wear hearing protection. Done.
After reading through the information on this & the NRA-backed Share legislation, it’s very clear that the gun lobby has looked at a slump in sales & decided this might be a little nudge to the gun nuts out there. Along with the “relaxed” concealer laws, they’re also out there going to bat to “relax” the sales of armor-piercing ammo & the the removal of background checks and taxes on silencer purchases, as well as the destruction of the national registry now tracking the purchase of silencers. This, just after Las Vegas. Right now, they’re back-peddling a bit– even they can see that it’s pretty tough to pass this kind of cr*p when you have to keep dealing with one mass shooting after another.
The USA is turning itself into the most dangerous 1st-world country on the planet. I hope my children cut those ties.
Gun sales had been way up during the Obama administration and are down after the past election.
If what you say is true about your past, and I have no doubt it is, then why even bring silencers up? The shooter at the church in Texas shoukd never have had access to firearms, given his criminal and mental health history, The government failed, again. And again, the proposed solution is to punish law abiding citizens and prevent them from defending themselves.
It was a former NRA instructor, armed with his personal AR-15 who stopped to the Texas shooter. How many more innocents are likely to have bern killed or injured if that small town had to wait for the police to arrive to take the guy out? We do not know, but to assume it would be zero is folly.
Why even bring silencers up, indeed. Why not post that query to the NRA?
“Superhero syndrome” doesn’t excuse the previous & only rarely is it that an armed private citizen affects a positive outcome interceding with guns, & you know this. The reason is that even highly skilled individuals in law enforcement are still plagued by human reaction to surprise.
http://swampland.time.com/2013/01/16/your-brain-in-a-shootout-guns-fear-and-flawed-instincts/
I’m ending my end of this convo now, as it is not why I was posting & is not what the site is for. I was stating my concerns for my children USA vs AU due to FATCA & the increasing mass shootings. That is all.
We all need a better hobby. But some clearly need it more than others.
@Jane
Alas, the US birthplace isn’t great news. If your kids obtained Australian citizenship, I would say they shouldn’t panic just yet. Australia seems very relaxed about FATCA enforcement, and if it’s anything like Canada there’s no provision for any sort of IRS enforcement and collection if there are no US assets.
I would tell the kids to be aware of the problem, to not make any renunciation decisions until they are sure they won’t want to use the US citizenship, and to only admit to Australian citizenship if and when banks ask awkward questions. Under no circumstances should they begin filing US taxes.
Draft registration shouldn’t be a concern. It ends at 26 and if your son is already outside the US, so who cares? (Plus if Vietnam taught us anything, only the poor or patriotic actually put on a uniform, everyone else figures out how to dodge it.)
Yes, good idea to move on from this topic, gun control, as it is not an “issues of United States citizenship, extra-territorial taxation, FBAR and FATCA,” the focus topics mentioned in the Administrative Notice in the Sidebar.
Jane mentioned guns as part of her concern about the US in connection with her children’s citizenship. It’s certainly okay to mention things that don’t fall directly under Brock’s focus topics, as these topics don’t exist in a vacuum, and okay to reply to a comment, even if it veers off topic. And there has been a bit of back and forth discussing gun control as a result.
But it wouldn’t be productive to have an all-out ongoing discussion on gun control issues as this is a very important thread for people who have questions, or worse, problems with Renunciation.
@Jane
I think you’re right to be concerned about the impact US citizenship might have on your children.
In your shoes, I’d sit down with them and have a serious talk. If neither of them has any intention of permanently moving to the United States, this is the ideal time for them to renounce since the paperwork would be relatively straightforward. As you know, the fee skyrocketed from US$450 to US$2350 in 2014 with less than two weeks’ notice; as expensive as that is, it’s unlikely to be the last increase.
As you mentioned, there is also the possibility of draft. You may not be aware, but last year the Senate passed a defence bill that included having women registering for the draft, which could potentially affect your daughter.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/15/politics/senate-approves-women-draft/index.html
The US Army is so desperate for people, they recently talked about accepting applicants with mental health issues, so another unknown is whether they’ll raise the upper age limit on the draft. Moreover, if they do bring back the draft, it would then be too late for your children to renounce in order to avoid military service:
https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal-considerations/us-citizenship-laws-policies/renunciation-of-citizenship.html
Personally, I don’t think it will be possible to stay under the radar much longer, especially for those with a US birthplace. I foresee a day not too far off where all banks and governments will demand ID in the form of a passport, as well as biometric proof such as fingerprints or retinal scans, to use their services. I totally understand why some Brockers opt to take their chances, but there’s no reason for your children to do likewise unless they intend at some point to make the US their home. If that’s unlikely, make it clear to them the cost and obligations of holding onto citizenship for non-homelanders. (Also point out that renouncing doesn’t mean giving on one day living the US. If they decide later in life that they do want to move there, they can always apply for a visa or green card at that point. Have them investigate health care costs first — frankly, only the wealthy and/or healthy can really afford to live in the US. I unexpectedly had health problems recently that would’ve wiped me out financially if I lived in the States, no exaggeration. I can’t begin to imagine how much more stressful recuperation would be if I had to deal with hospital bills, etc.)
I could go on and on, but I’ll stop here. My advice is to err on the side of caution and advise them to renounce now, while it’s relatively simple and cheap.
Only if internet troll = one who has a different viewpoint to your own.
Many, many comments not dir3 tly relat3d to this topic are allowed, no problem, but comments in disagreement with them are not.
Same issue we face when trying to get point across on other forums.
@WestCoaster @pacifica777 @Nononymous
I’m sick in my gut about my children’s futures & their lack of support from their US family, (even traveling to the US this Xmas…through HK, thus an easy target). Worse, I’m the only one who worries. 🙁
Both kids have already filed USA tax returns-(I was afraid not to)- so they’re up for renouncing. Worse, their basically-not-there-for-them father would throw a major fit at their renouncing & would rouse his worthless, uninterested family to gang up. He contacts our children as little as possible (tho I encouraged daily Skype landline calls), & I’ve spent years trying to shield them that uninterested vibe, whilst trying to accentuate the positive that ever came through.
It’s going to be out of my hands, in the end. I just know they won’t gain in the USA. I don’t want them to not love their dad, I just wish he honestly cared about them, and that it wasn’t an act…..Ugh
@Japan T
I remember your very moving submission to the Ways and Means Committee on Tax Reform in 2015(?).
Not everyone has the courage to do that. Certainly not a troll.
@Jane
I won’t lie, it’s unfortunate that your kids have been filing US returns. Far better not to have done so.
But overall it sounds like you additional complications here, questions of identity and family and emotion that are in the mix, which nobody can really help you with.
What I can say is to relax. Dial back the paranoia. For example, what do you mean by “through HK, thus an easy target”? Come on. No one is at immediate risk here.
Ultimately it’s your kids’ decision, there’s only so much you can do. Educate them, make recommendations, lay out the options, offer to pay for renunciation of course. They can stop filing, get back into off-the-radar mode and stay there for years while watching how the situation develops. Or they can just renounce.
Thank you Jane for support re NRA propaganda. I commend JapanT for his or her support of RBT and other on-topic issues, and have no intention of debating an off-topic issue. At the same time I feel I have to counter the sarcastic sstatement “Oh, but control advocacy is fine? I see. No bias here.” This a classic case of what-aboutism as used to deflect by pointing to something else that could be questionable. If there had been control advocacy which I doubt, not pointing it out is NOT the same thing as saying it is fine. A motorist getting a speeding ticket telling the cop that not giving a ticket to all speeders is the same as saying it’s fine for others to speed. No Sir.
@Jane
“Both kids have already filed USA tax returns-(I was afraid not to)- so they’re up for renouncing. Worse, their basically-not-there-for-them father would throw a major fit at their renouncing & would rouse his worthless, uninterested family to gang up. He contacts our children as little as possible (tho I encouraged daily Skype landline calls), & I’ve spent years trying to shield them that uninterested vibe, whilst trying to accentuate the positive that ever came through.”
Given they’ve already been filing with the IRS, I’m doubling down on my advice. Both of your children are legally adults so they don’t need parental permission to renounce, so don’t tell their father until they’ve got their CLNs in hand. (Not that he ever has to know, for that matter. Sounds like the kids would have zero contact with him, if the burden of reaching out fell to him, so he doesn’t really have the right to an opinion. That said, there’s no point in stirring the pot needlessly so why even tell him.)