Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Participants will need to provide their e-mail address (real or fake) and an alias. The only written rule is that participants must use a same alias each time they post (and not “anonymous” or derivatives thereof).
Bear in mind that any responses that you get from participants is peer-to-peer help, and it is not intended as a replacement for professional advice. Also, the Isaac Brock Society provides this disclaimer: neither the Society nor any of its members are professionals. We offer our advice here only in friendship and we recommend that our readers seek professional advice if they need it.
If you wish to receive an e-mail notification of comments, check the box to that effect when making your first comment.
NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@Jane, agree with WestCoaster re your ex. Why bother to tell him anything? It’s not his decision to make, any more than it’s yours. If your kids renounce so what as far as he’s concerned. You say he’s not interested in them, well don’t bother to tell him. It’s none of his business and if he finds out later, well tough. They’re adults and made their choice.
I will take the possibly heretical position, based on the advice I’ve given my own kid, not to pull the trigger and renounce at 18. If they are not in any immediate financial risk or inconvenience from having US citizenship, which in Australia I expect they are not, then it’s a not a bad thing to have early on in life. It can make studying in the US easier (which at the graduate level it’s not a bad option if they get funding, though alas the GOP wants to make that funding taxable now) plus there are advantages to working in the US for a few years to gain some perspective and experience. (Do it early, when young and healthy and not likely to get sick or reproduce!) It’ll be easy enough to renounce later before one’s financial affairs become overly complex (and even if they are, the non- or partial-compliance approach simplifies that problem, provided there aren’t too many US assets in play).
Even I am willing to admit that not every corner of the US is filled with horrid gun-packing, child-dating, bible-smacking, Trump-voting evangelical wingnuts. Significant portions of it, yes, but there’s still those liberal coastal elites and fun craft-gin-brewing urban hipsters to keep one sane and happy.
Yes of course the price of renouncing could spike again, or other things get worse. It’s always a bit of a gamble. But I tend to the sanguine view that we’ll have plenty of warning. Draft registration is not a serious concern right now, particularly not for anyone with a second passport. For all its problems, the US isn’t likely to go all Handmaid’s Tale overnight.
And ultimately it’s the adult children’s decision to renounce, and what to say to the American family.
The issues that drive this forum affect people from diverse backgrounds and political beliefs. The unchecked Trump bashing (while quickly responding to end any perceived Obama or Clinton bashing) and criticism of policies supported by the Republican party while pouncing on any complaints against th same, labels the site to many as a “left wing loony bin” to the very people whose help we need.
Further, as this forum has been increasingly referenced as a place where USCs overseas band together to fight our common enemy CBT and its offspring FBAR and FATCA, it just might be possible that it might attract the attention of those in power in the US, the Republican party. As we NEED their assistance, stop fucking insulting them and their beliefs, dipshits!
You want to me to stop posting “NRA propoganda”? Then stop posting gun control propoganda. Continued insulting of the poeple whose help need does not help our cause.
I think we are quickly discovering that the GOP is not our friend. It’s starting to look like payback for the donors and to hell with the rest. So feel free to insult away.
I don’t really give a shit about what goes on in the US, to be honest. It’s not my country. Yeah, it’s hard to avoid the cheap shots when it’s gone and elected itself a demonstrable moron as leader, but everyone does that nowadays.
That being said, what we need to focus on here are the coping strategies. Tactics, really. How to be non-compliant forever. How to renounce as painlessly as possible. Let the US do whatever it will do, and if you have the taint of a US birthplace, take whatever action you need to take (or not take) to ensure that you never pay them a dime. If bringing down the IGAs will help, great, but it’s not the only front.
@JapanT
I have never posted any gun control views and I have not insulted anyone. Please back off with your language.
@JapanT
I have never posted any gun control views and I have not insulted anyone. Please moderate your language.
@fn0
While by “you” I did not mean you personally, rather those who do such things. However, as I do not recall you nor anyone else calling for an end to the gun control propoganda, your bias is betrayed by what you seek to end and allow to continue.
This bias will not help enlist the aid of those currently in power.
“This bias will not help enlist the aid of those currently in power.”
There will be no aid from those currently in power. Now or ever. Accept this.
There’s no particular reason to be insulting regular ol’ Americans, I grant you, but it’s awful hard to avoid these days. Ultimately, however, who cares, they will have no influence on this. In the meantime we just need to figure out the workarounds and the exit strategies.
@JapanT
cc: @Nononymous
The original comment mentioning silencers included someone’s perception of a situation that affected their desire to be free of the USA, and was therefore relevant to this forum; it wasn’t “gun control propaganda” as such. No-one here is “calling for an end to the gun control propoganda” – there is no continuing gun control propaganda to call an end to. Bias used to mean an unfair position based on opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge of the facts. In this thread it is being used it as a perjorative term to discredit someone suspected of holding a different opinion.
The propaganda we need to focus on is objective propaganda promoting RBT and associated issues. I appreciate efforts on this, and think we are aligned in thinking that anyone who opposes CBT should add their voices to push for change. To others who would scream “Love it or leave it” I would say “Stay and fight hard for change, or leave it” which is a much more principled position.
As to the last point, do you really think that agreeing with the NRA on silencers will “help enlist the aid of those currently in power” to get solutions to the unrelated issues that concern us, i.e. taxes, RBT, TTFI, FATCA etc.? Dream on. Nononymous sums it up perfectly.
@Nononymous
A lot of people have spent a lot of time, effort and money trying to get those in power to help us out and continue to do so. Why make their task more difficult?
@fn0
Any change in silencer laws has no effect on the poster’s freedom or lack there of from the US, does not effect the safety of anyone, anywhere.
“As to the last point, do you really think that agreeing with the NRA on silencers will “help enlist the aid of those currently in power” to get solutions to the unrelated issues that concern us, i.e. taxes, RBT, TTFI, FATCA etc.?”
No, of course not. But public statements of disagreement are not going to get them to take our collective issues seriously.
I revisit as I receive replies to my email.
I think my issue with the US congress entertaining silencer laws, now, is that is serves NO ONE, legally.
Only gun-nuts jump on these proposals. They try, oh so hard, to attach them to the everyday folks.
Instead, let’s look at why (not a particular Bock member) NRA wants it? That, is an honest approach.
The following email that came in from Democrats Abroad this morning is posted for your information as I was previously requested to do by a Brocker. I could comment, but I will not comment, on the relative merits of these emails as compared to the emails I get from Republicans Overseas. Only part of the email concerns RBT but for the sake of completeness the complete message is attached without any edits other than one little typo spelling correction.
2017-11-21 11:27 EST From: info@DemocratsAbroad.org
If you’ve been following Congressional tax reform work over the last few weeks you know that GOP leaders in the House, Senate and White House have produced truly appalling tax reform packages. The House passed a bill that cuts taxes for the wealthy and large corporations but not for many working class Americans. The Senate Finance Committee has ratified a bill that, in different ways, also vastly favors the wealthy and large corporations at the expense of middle income Americans – only it ALSO repeals the ACA health insurance mandate, ripping health insurance away from 13 million Americans.
And, sadly, neither bill includes a provision for reducing the tax filing and financial account reporting burden borne by Americans Abroad. Unless amendments to the bill ratified on the Senate floor produce material changes to the bill to benefit the working class instead of the donor class, Democrats Abroad opposes the Senate’s bill.
The bill will be debated and put to a vote in the Senate the week after Thanksgiving. We are therefore launching an urgent campaign reaching out to members of the U.S. Senate asking them not to support the bill in its current form.
Click to view our November Tax Advocacy Action Pack. It includes all you need to send a message of opposition to this “Trust us, it will trickle down” tax scam. We are using the super easy-to-use Democracy.io messaging platform. Please use this campaign link to help us track the number of messages being sent: http://www.democratsabroad.org/turkeyandtax. Reminder: Use your US voting address with this tool.
We know that messages to Congress from constituents are persuasive. We want Senators to return to Capitol Hill after the Thanksgiving recess to piles and piles of our messages! Please reach out and send a message TODAY!
Democrats Abroad’s Taxation Task Force, meanwhile, has not stopped pushing to see our reforms included in the Senate’s bill. We continue to engage with our Democratic friends in the Senate about a floor amendment putting Residency Based Taxation (RBT) into the bill. It would exempt Americans abroad from reporting offshore income. Our suggests 70% of American abroad have income under $100,000 per year. As RBT would save ALL Americans abroad from the complexity, cost and stress of filing from abroad, this is NOT a reform aimed at the wealthy and privileged. It helps everyone.
Please message your Senators right away, when using the Democracy.io tool and any other method of contact with elected representatives, use your US voting address. http://www.democratsabroad.org/turkeyandtax
Contact us at any time with questions at taxationtf@democratsabroad.org.
Best wishes for a wonderful Thanksgiving celebration and thank you for your on-going support.
Democratically yours,
DEMOCRATS ABROAD TAXATION TASK FORCE
DeeDee Geirow (Sweden)
Julia Bryan – ex officio (Czech Republic)
Carmelan Polce – Chair (New York and Australia)
Michael Ramos (Australia)
Joe Smallhoover (France)
Orlando Vidal (UAE)
“Instead, let’s look at why (not a particular Bock member) NRA wants it? That, is an honest approach.”
Shouldn’t even be brought up in a thread such as this.
http://thebigsmoke.com.au/2017/11/22/why-did-the-paradise-papers-pass-without-comment/
I wonder if these big fish will face the same level of IRS “magnifying glass” that befalls the poor, low-income expat? It needs to be reported. Post it on your social media.
“some of us need better hobbies” — that’s funny!
Jane — My 2 cents.
My sons are 12 and 14, foreign-born thank goodness. But I’m US born, and a dual citizen, so what follows incorporates the chore of being a US-tainted person abroad.
First, of course, it’s their decision. But young people are often happy for some guidance (even if they deny it).
My opinion closely resembles Nononymous’
– since they file tax returns, they have what is needed to open bank accounts in AU (i.e. filling in required forms). Or they may have pre-2014 accounts. In any case, they should be able to bank properly, if not as easily as others.
– since they are in this from day 1 they can be pro-active. They can stay under various thresholds, and plan ahead to stay in a situation where the US tax return is easy. Minimize complications, learn to feed the correct data to the tax preparer, etc.
– they can find out which, if any (there are plenty for my country) AU retirement accounts are non reportable. I don’t know the detail, but I read here that’s a big deal for AU.
– when possible, consider that file tax returns is “feeding the beast”. The IRS isn’t looking for trouble. Make its life easier. Keep it simple. For instance I never know my exact Belgian tax figure before the IRS deadline. What do I do: I give the IRS a number. They’re happy. So am I. Also plan ahead when selling a house, etc.
In summary: they can live fairly normally, with the administrative handicap that is US birth. It’s easier to live with than many other handicaps. I think a muslim name and birthplace in the middle east can be hard to live with too sometimes, for instance.
Now for the advantages of keeping US citizenship: it remains a country of huge draw (especially for young people), and plenty of opportunities. There’s a lot of room and people of all sorts of opinions and lives. Anyone can find there way. Don’t follow the news too closely, it’s frightening. I always find that when I get there that life is much more normal than I feared. Don’t worry about guns, the Democrats bringing Marxism, or the Republicans Fascism. It’ll be OK. Basically, it’s about keeping a door open if they want to go there for any reason (study, work, love, …). They can always renounce later. As for the draft, that’s a non-starter. Can you seriously imagine Congress agreeing to that? I know, my sons will be 18 in a few years, I’ve thought it through. Heck, I thought about it when I was 18-26. I cannot see the US plucking people away from Australia to send them fighting somewhere; impossible to do, counterproductive, etc. Don’t worry about this.
Cheers
@Jane
“I wonder if these big fish will face the same level of IRS “magnifying glass” that befalls the poor, low-income expat? It needs to be reported. Post it on your social media.”
Here’s a dirty little secret: there is no magnifying glass. The IRS is paying no attention to poor, low-income expats. Nor to comfortable, middle-class expats. Nor even to moderately rich, high-income expats. What causes grief is either banking restrictions due to FATCA, if they have a US birthplace, or their largely self-inflicted, voluntary efforts at compliance. Noting of course that many are “volunteered” by the tax compliance industry, and have neither the information nor the self-confidence to resist. [Insert the usual caveat about anyone with US income, assets, business interests, family, inheritance or other financial ties having a more complex situation to deal with; those without a second passport have additional concerns.]
That may change in the future, of course. On that subject you’ll find a range of opinions here, from the cautiously wary to the clinically paranoid.
@Fred (B)
We largely agree. Except in Jane’s case, given that Australia like Canada appears to be relatively slack on FATCA enforcement, I would suggest that unless her kids are planning very definitely to either renounce or move to the US, they should stop filing and go dark, as soon as possible. Stop filing and switch to new banks if the current ones are aware of US citizenship.
Nononymous: Indeed. What would be your pros and cons of continuing to file in the case of a US born dual citizen living abroad? I mean maybe I should just stop filing.
Regarding the pros and cons of continuing to file…
Pros –
– easier to make a clean exit from tax system upon renouncing, rather than become a covered expatriate (if that matters)
– less grief if you are thinking of moving to the US, where you’d need to be compliant anyway
– some people sleep better at night knowing that they are obeying the law, no matter whose law (I’m obviously not one of these people)
– suddenly stopping your filing might raise flags, particularly if your banks are reporting you under FATCA
Cons –
– only one, but it’s a big one: even if you don’t owe money now, you might owe money in the future, or face costs and problems being fully compliant if you have complex investments, business interests etc. (solution to this might be the “partial compliance” approach of sending only simplified, incomplete information – not reporting everything, provided of course it’s consistent with any possible FATCA reporting)
Nononymous: thanks. I’m a big fan of partial compliance, or “compliance” as I like to call it. I might add one benefit. I am currently accumulating (according to what my preparer is filing) yearly credits, because my foreign tax is about twice (!!) my US tax. Apparently this can be carried forward, though I’m not sure what this could be useful for in the future. Perhaps were I to move to a country where income is taxed less than in the US. Who knows. That said your only con doesn’t really concern me. Maybe I should stop.
Fred(B) – many “compliant” expats find that they run out of foreign tax credits after retirement – when their retirement savings withdrawals may be tax advantaged at home, but not in the US. This, of course, depends on your home country’s tax system and whether there are any treaty clauses you can use. The foreign tax credits carryovers expire after 10 years.
Personal usefulness of FTC carry forward:
Re FTC carryover useful one time:
When I was laid off after 29 years of working for a “foreign” employer, I got a payout that more than doubled my income for the year which exceeded the FEIE. Part of the payout was considered a retirement allowance that was not taxable in my country and generated no FTC for the US, so carrying forward excess FTC from previous years came in useful for the one and only time to reduce US tax owing to zero. I didn’t face the issue of running out of FTC later because the pension income I had was all taxable at home and generated enough FTC to cancel US tax. The pensions were funded by pre-tax income but treaties let US tax apply only on distributions from the plans. Your kilometreage may vary.
Years ago when the first IRS amnesty program for overseas citizens was announced I was advised to not do anything, they (the US) can never find out anyway, I was told. I followed that advice.
Now, my local banks in Japan are demanding I provide them with my US SSN.
I must provide my Japanese ID number and photo ID to send or receive money to or from overseas. These transactions are reported to the US.
My family in the US, no longer easily able to send money via International Postal Money Order for holiday and birthday gifts have had to provide all sorts of documentation to buy non US cash.
Filing / continuing to file can be a good choice for young people with no US birthplace. Use the passport, use the right of entry, spend some time in America learning what it’s like. Then go home and stop filing US tax returns, stop using the passport, and open bank accounts with no US indicia.
The FOREX company moneycorp canceled my account with them and others refused to take me as a customer until I provided them with my CLN.
Sending and receiving money abroad through banks is a complete rip off.
It will become more and more restrictive and expensive for US persons to live and operate outside the ‘homeland.’
Having bad experiences trying to send money to/from Japan through banks many years ago, I have only used International Postal Money Orders until recently when this service was discontinued except between Japan and the US. From Canada we have been using a money wiring service.