Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@iota
Yes, I have, among other things. I have a long list of links to topics we have to discuss, e.g. when he decides to marry, retirement, etc. Right now we have a cease fire agreement until he has finished his last year of school. I agreed to it, so he could concentrate on school. I have no idea, however, if he will listen when the time comes or if he really will go to the US. He’s never been there other than as a tourist with my wife and I. I don’t really think he’ll like it once he’s been there for a while. He’s been raised in Germany and thinks like a German, whether he accepts it or not.
There’s just not enough fire in hell for the bastards who did/do these things to innocent people and their families.
@UnforgivenToo
Your son is still young and hasnt started his career yet. Wait until he has difficulty getting/keeping a bank account, or is discriminated against in getting a job, or cannot save for retirement in the same way as his peers. He will have to be tax and fbar compliant if he wishes to keep or renew his US passport, therefore he will have to inform his bank of his American status.
I don’t think it will take too long to change his mind when he realises he is a second class German. Just give him time.
@Unforgiventoo
You might like to let your son read this when he graduates.
https://renounceuscitizenship.wordpress.com/2012/08/21/letter-of-a-canadian-businessman-to-his-dual-u-s-canada-citizen-son-on-the-occasion-of-his-high-school-graduation/
@Heidi
My reasoning behind the cease fire. It’s just hard, as his father, to have to watch him hurt himself running up against a wall, before he listens to me try to tell him it’s there.
BTW, he’s 23 and already non-compliant from his vacation jobs which were just over the filing limit. This last one I offered to pay him to stay at home and just enjoy summer break, but he wants so badly to be independent.
@Heidi
Thank you extremely much.
This is just what I need. I have bookmarked the page. I hope the original author doesn’t mind me plagiarising some of this, because I am going to.
@Unforgiven
I just posted a link above, the end of the letter sets out very succinctly the problrms of US citizenship while living outside the US.
He will never be really independent from that master.
@unforgiven
I am sure that was what the author intended when he published it 🙂
I am off to bed.
(Catching up from a few days away)
From the Phil Hodgen blog, today, which could be useful for some. Also has reference to those of us who do have US-deemed US citizen children born abroad.
http://hodgen.com/this-week-planning-for-the-exit/
@Calgary
Yes, Hodgens blogs are very informative and well worth reading before expatriation.
Considering the net worth test is applied on the
day before expatriation, it is important to do any rearranging of assets to avoid covered status before this date.
Unforgiven Too – “…he’s 23 and already non-compliant from his vacation jobs which were just over the filing limit. This last one I offered to pay him to stay at home and just enjoy summer break, but he wants so badly to be independent.”
If he’s 23 he’s an adult, and entitled to make his own decisions about his citizenship and his life. Put $2350 in a separate account in his name, and let him make up his own mind if/when he wants to use it.
Paying a grown man not to work? Why?
@Unforgiven Too
It may help to make your son aware that renouncing would not prevent your son from travelling or working in the US in future.
He would have to apply for a green card, and should be treated as all other ‘ aliens’. Of course, he should be compliant with all his US tax liabilites before renouncing but then he should also do that if he stays an American.
It sounds like he is burying his head in the sand right now compliance wise.
It just blows the mind that once one has renounced, the America still somehow thinks one is an american, fiscally. If any Japanese leaves something in their will for a New Yorker it isn’t taxed. But if that Japanese used to be an american citizen, then anything he leaves to a relative in New York is taxed? WHY? Where does that logic come from? And sometimes I wonder should things get worse in America- how will they changes the laws once again to help themselves to other people`s money?
@Heidi
It sounds like he is burying his head in the sand right now compliance wise.
Sounds about right. Only not just compliance, but everything that’s not right about the US.
@iota
Maybe “paying a grown man not to work” is true, but a little hard. More like I offered to pay a vacation for him and his girlfriend, seeing as this was his last summer break (they only get 6 six summer vacation here). He hasn’t taken a real summer break, yet. He has always gone and found himself a job, sometimes during the other shorter 2 or 3 week breaks. I have never had to tell him to go work, he just did. That alone, if you look at some of these spoiled brats today, would be a reason to “reward” him, while I could have some peace in knowing he was under the reporting limit for this year. (I still have my head in the sand about his problem, too, I guess).
He struggled a bit the first bit of college, but he fought his way through and now he is just that close to finishing up with good grades in a useful occupation. I don’t want the US to ruin that too, by distracting him from this.
I been think and the idea of the letter he can read without all the emotional baggage of a discussion would be the way to go. I think I will give it to him after the last finals, but before graduation, then let him decide. Not sure I want to write him out if he says he won’t do it, if he goes to the US, but I definitely will if he stays here.
@Unforgiven Too – “Maybe “paying a grown man not to work” is true, but a little hard. More like I offered to pay a vacation for him and his girlfriend, seeing as this was his last summer break (they only get 6 six summer vacation here). He hasn’t taken a real summer break, yet. He has always gone and found himself a job, sometimes during the other shorter 2 or 3 week breaks. I have never had to tell him to go work, he just did. That alone, if you look at some of these spoiled brats today, would be a reason to “reward” him,”
I guess that’s where we differ. I never had to tell my children to go to work either, and it never would have crossed my mind to “reward” them for choosing to do so. I don’t get why you would want to do that. Does anyone reward you for choosing to work? Do you want anyone to reward you for the decisions you make about your life? And stop the rewards if they disapprove of your decisions? It’s really a control thing, don’t you think? (No offence intended)
“…while I could have some peace in knowing he was under the reporting limit for this year. (I still have my head in the sand about his problem, too, I guess).”
Can I suggest that a possible solution might be to offer to go through the 1040 with him (and the FBAR if required) – and then he can take care of it himself in future. (Or not, if that’s his choice.) He sounds like a responsible and capable person.
@iota
You may be right or maybe not, but those were my thoughts at the time I thought them.
I started at zero 18 months ago when I clicked on “small businesses and self-employed” to when I got an offer to go into a partnership. Since then I have learned a lot and each new step makes one see things differently. Just having my CLN has allowed me to slow down a bit more and concentrate on him. I’m sure everyone of the people dealing with this have has gone through the different phases. I am his father and he is my son and that will stay that way for as long as I can do anything at all no matter how irrational or illogical. I would jump in front of a truck to save him from himself, if that was what I thought would help at that moment. The whole thing is moot anyway, because he didn’t bite and probably wouldn’t have helped anyway. When I wrote the comment, the point was about my frustration about not being to able to just make this go away for him and his taking this a little to light.
I made the deal to not discuss it with him till then, and I hope he holds his part of the deal and listens when the time comes.
What I have now, though, is more information, an idea and “template” for a letter to get the importance of the whole situation across in a way I know I couldn’t do myself before.
I think the idea of going through the paperwork with him is good. I haven’t filled out a 1040 for a long time and never an FBAR. I refused to even consider the paperwork when I discovered the evil nature of the whole CBT thing. But, I will take your advice in this case and use the time between now and then to read into this, despite my aversion to (hatred of) the whole US-form slavery, so I can help him where need be.
@Unforgiven Too –
Good luck. I hope it all works out well in the end.
@Unforgiven
If your wife outlives you, then your sons inheritance won’t be a problem!
Dear friends- after a LOT of worry – my cousin finally found his CLN and it is DATED 1989!!
I would just like to know how he got one when nobody else did? It is when he had to become german for professional reasons. And I wonder if anybody else has the same from back 2-3 decades ago?
Just back from a holiday (to the States no less) and saw this link on the English Forum. Good read for anyone contemplating giving up their citizenship.
https://www.lewrockwell.com/2016/09/mark-nestmann/escaping-us/
@Medea
I think that is the BEST article I’ve read about FATCA! It sure does pin down the reality & does so by introducing what the “every-man” experiences.
Whether it will resonate with the average US citizen, I doubt it. It’s so unfortunate that so many humans lack empathy (until something applies to them or theirs)….All they see, is “traitor”.
@Jane, yeah I thought it summed up the various problems in easy to understand language and short paragraphs rather than long winded explanations. Succinct, but telling you what you need consider before making a decision on whether to give up the citizenship or not.
@Polly re;
“……………my cousin finally found his CLN and it is DATED 1989!!
I would just like to know how he got one when nobody else did? It is when he had to become german for professional reasons.”………
If Germany demanded that he relinquish/renounce any/all other citizenships then he might have had to proactively ask for the CLN as US documentation of the deed – in order to prove it to the Germans?
@Polly;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nationality_law