Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
To badger’s link:
Applicants for naturalisation are normally expected to prove they have renounced their existing nationality, or will lose this automatically upon naturalisation. An exception applies to those unable to give up their nationality easily (such as refugees). A further exception applies to citizens of Switzerland and the European Union member states.
This was the exception I was able to use to get German citizenship immediately, then relinquish instead of having to renounce first.
@Badger
Who WRITES this stuff? Talk about convoluted. And what is the difference if your father or your mother was german? I dont get the distinction. But whatever…..
@polly
The laws have a lot of history. Most of the convulsion comes from changes made over time to stop discrimination of women and immigrant families who have been here generations and the fact that none of the laws were retroactive. Unlike some other countries. Mostly to do with citizenship at birth.
What badger is absolutely correct where your cousin is concerned and would have been in my case, if I hadn’t gotten the exception. Naturalization is straightforward and requires renouncement of previous non-EU citizenship, where possible. The only change there over the many many years was the EU exception (not sure when).
Re Mark Nestmann’s article at https://www.lewrockwell.com/2016/09/mark-nestmann/escaping-us/
I have to disagree with the second paragraph that says that being on the Federal Register list of people who renounced will make me an enemy of the state and be blacklisted. I don’t think the Consulate lied when they said I could visit the US under the same rules as any other citizen (i.e. NRA*) of my country, which I am sure would not be allowed if I were an enemy of the state.
* NRA = non-resident alien
@Polly, re;
“….And what is the difference if your father or your mother was german? I dont get the distinction..”
Looks as if it is a gendered basis just like the US has made citizenship stripping and transmission distinctions in the past based on gender ; ex. stripping US citizen women resident in the US of their US citizenship if they married a non-US spouse http://www.startribune.com/the-citizens-a-nation-and-time-forgot/186542121/?refer=y or in terms of denial of transmission of citizenship via a male parent vs. a female parent in specified circumstances ex. http://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/lynch-v-morales-santana/ .
fn0. You, of course, are correct. Nestman is exaggerating the risk of expatriating. No idea why.
I think Nestman was likely referring to the exit tax regime (renunciants are certainly treated like enemies of the state), the Reed Amendment (always the threat of banishment, however remote, if it is somehow determined the person renounced for tax reasons), plus the officially stated opinions of numerous blowhard members of Congress, past and present.
They believe the US is the greatest country in the history of the world so anyone who would renounce their US citizenship must therefore be defective in some way. Similar to deciding to leave the Scientology fold. Heck, merely choosing to live outside the US makes you highly suspect; renouncing seals the deal.
For expats, you can’t win for losing when it comes to US citizenship.
What happens after renouncing???
Well, more than 3 years after renouncing 100% by the book – all tax info sent in, 8854 etc sent by registered post, all receipts and documentation that it was delivered, and having a CLN, I thought I was OUT. I had also sent letters to voter registration and social security asking them to DELETE my info as I was no longer a US citizen – what happens? I continue to receive letters from social security (which I have never applied for and am not eligible for) and now today voter registration updates. The voter registration update is a postcard “It’s U.S. Election Time. Where are you voting from?” accompanied by photos of the Great Wall of China, a savannah landscape with giraffes and a photo of Eiffel Tower. Gives the impression that no matter where you live, once a U.S. person/possession, always a U.S. person/possession, no matter what you do. Any others as “lucky” as me? At least it proves that the IT systems are not all coordinated!
@ allou
Even though you have renounced, you may still be eligible for Social Security and US Medicare. I’ll be receiving Social Security benefits because I paid into the system for years before coming to live in Canada. I renounced in 2014, sending form 8854 and all the other forms. Recently, I received a “Welcome to Medicare” letter. Although Medicare can only be used in the US, I figure it can be used as travel insurance should I visit relatives there.
As far as voting, I don’t believe we can or should do that. Who could one vote for in the US anyway? Also, I visit the US as little as possible. I understand that it can take quite some time for these US agencies to update their records. Thank God that we don’t hear from the IRS and that business is over.
@allou
You need 10 yrs of US SS payments to claim benefits and you can do so as a non resident alien.
Many countries have totalisation agreements with the US, so if you do not have 10 yrs , you can combine them with the years from your resident country to get the benefits.
I believe that SS have info on their website.
If you have contributed less than 40 quarters and qualify for SS benefits by virtue of a totalisation agreement, your SS benefits should not be subject to Windfall Elimination Provision (WEP). (It has been reported that not all Social Security staff are knowledgeable about this exemption). WEP normally applies if you are in receipt of a pension from employment not covered by Social Security taxes, and can reduce SS benefits by up to 50%. The reduction decreases with more years of covered US employment, and disappears altogether with 30 years of paying in. If applicable don’t forget to claim for a spousal benefit, e.g. for a NRA spouse who was never a US person and never worked in covered employment. See the SSA Office of International Programs for how benefits outside the US are affected by citizenship and country of residence. In some cases, benefits may not continue after 6 months outside the US.
Thank you for the comments Brockers. My point is that I want absolutely no contact with any US agencies and assumed that by informing them in writing that I was no longer a US citizen, I would be removed from the systems. Apparently not so. After all the time, money and effort it took to renounce, I would not ever re-entangle by applying for any programmes I might be entitled to. I do realise this is a luxury, as I live in and am a citizen of a country with much better social benefits than any the US has to offer. Since I visit IBS fairly infrequently now, I take the opportunity to thank all the IBS people who helped me on my renunciation journey, and wish good luck to those who are still on their way.
Good luck to you Allou. I can totally understand why you would want no contact with any US agencies. My take on collecting social security is payback for the renunciation fee and all the stress of divorcing the US.
I understand the feeling. My ex-spouse (NRA) is entitled to a partial Social Security retirement benefit based on my past coverage, and a marriage that lasted over 10 years, but is afraid to claim it, even though it would not have to be reported to or taxed by the IRS, only Revenue Canada. It’s not my decision, but I think it’s a mistake not to take the extra income. Not all US agencies are out to get you. While the main role of the IRS is to take money in, a major role of the SSA is to give money out.
@all
My experience with the US SSA administration is that they are inefficient but not vindictive. If you paid into the system you are entitled to every dime as well as your resident countries benefits.
But good luck to you, I can fully understand your feelings, but I am with Pat on this.
I fully intend to collect as much as possible from SSA once I retire. The USG certainly collected as much from me as they could.
In Australia your local benefits are reduced for any Social Security benefits you qualify for, so if you qualify for the Age Pension, Centrelink will require you to apply for any Social Security benefits.
@all
The US SSA are witholding agents for the IRS, so those of you who can/will receive US SS will not have to interact with the IRS.
Many countries qualify for a 0% SS withold, some have 30% , I believe Switzerland is unique with 15%
There are however many individual tax treaties with countries that ‘should’ prevent double taxation in your country of residence/citizenship.
As I am a Canadian resident (and at this point ONLY a Canadian citizen), I can report that by mutual agreement between the US and Canada (i. e. the totalisation agreement) government pensions are taxable only by the government of the country where the individual actually resides. Citizenship has no bearing on the matter. In effect, the US has agreed to residence based taxation, at least for government pensions. (The CRA even allows a special 15% deduction for US SS payments on your Canadian return; go figure.) I can’t speak for other countries; you would have to check your own country’s totalisation agreement.
My take on collecting US SS is that it amounts to payback for all the pain and suffering the US government has caused due to the extra-territorial application of their wretched tax laws. Also I look at those monthly installments as regular and ongoing compensation for the citizenship and right of return they stole from me. I don’t worry about them knowing my address and so on; they already know that from from previous tax returns and FBARs. SS Administration sends recipients an annual questionnaire asking if there have been any changes in one’s personal situation. There wasn’t a peep out of them when I reported I lost US citizenship but the payments kept on rolling in. SSA is slow as molasses but otherwise pleasant enough to deal with.
The irony is that I never would have found out about any of this and started collecting US SS benefits if it hadn’t been for FATCA, CBT, and the rest of their stupid laws. They talk about chasing after “foreign tax cheats” and pulling in vast amounts of lost revenue, but in my case it wound up costing them considerable money to go after me. I have many years of “free” money from the US government to look forward to and the 3rd of every month gives me special pleasure. Don’t get mad; get even.
Here is a pdf link to the SS booklet which applies to non resident aliens who qualify to receive SS benefits.
https://www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10137.pdf
It lists the countries with whom SS has a treaty and the US tax withhold (if any). It also gives rules governing benefits for non treaty countries.
Here is also an interactive tool for non resident alien SS benefits.
https://www.ssa.gov/international/AlienTax.html
It’s your money that you have paid into the system, you are entitled to it.
@maz57
” Don’t get mad; get even.” This is the new mantra for US expats who have renounced and can claim US SS. As a 100% Canadian now, I also look forward to the 3rd of the month with great pleasure. And never would have considered collecting US SS if not for FATCA.
I know we get queries about whether ex-Americans can enter the US again and about how easy it is or not so I thought I’d share my recent trip info.
Decided back in the spring that we would make our probably final trip to the US to see my relatives over there. Everyone is getting older which makes travel more difficult and unfortunately they’re not likely to be able to afford to visit me here in Switzerland. So first step was the ESTA. I filled in the forms and submitted them, expecting to have to wait the max 48 hours before I heard anything, but no it was only a few hours before they were approved.
Fast forward to end of August and our flight from Heathrow to Dallas. No problems at Heathrow and the flight was okay. At Dallas we went through the auto check for ESTA holders, but I got called back to see a “proper” person. Don’t think it was because of my “ex” status, more that I took a very bad photo with my eyes almost shut when the camera went off. So I had to give a full set of fingerprints, thumbs included, and have the photo done again. No problem with that and so we were cleared and out of the airport a short time later.
Checking in coming back no problems, apart from not understanding what we needed to do at the auto check-in terminals, but we got there in the end. At no point was I asked about my “ex” status, although I had copies of my CLN and my cancelled US passport with me just in case.
So all in all no problems, no hassle. We were out of Dallas airport 35 minutes after landing, and after 40 minutes when landing back in Heathrow.
@Medea,
I’m thinking I’d prefer to NOT travel with my original CLN/canceled passport (certified copies only). Why should I risk it being lost in travels? I mean, it’s not like they can’t look it up to verify. I’d be traveling on my new country’s passport & am a citizen there– not the USA.
That being said, I have zero plans to ever go back– I’d prefer, now, to see other parts of our planet.
@Jane I only took photocopies of the CLN, not the original and not even certified copies. It’s all supposed to be in their system anyway so I couldn’t see the point in going to the trouble of getting certified copies. As for the passport I took it because it states unequivocally that I had lost my citizenship and gives details of the relevant section of the law. If they took the passport off me I wasn’t concerned as it’s invalid anyway.
@pacifica, don’t know if this is useful (or accurate), but saw this;
“….. High-volume posts have had to devise new systems to handle the enormous increase in renunciations in recent years. The US consulates in Canada dispensed with the twostep approach a couple of years ago to open up more appointment dates. The two-step system was replaced in March 2016 by a centralized approach administered by the American Citizen Services unit of the US consulate in Vancouver. All renunciation applications now go to Vancouver for screening and review before an appointment is made at one of seven consular posts (Vancouver, Calgary, Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, Quebec City, and Halifax). The system is the same regardless of whether the applicant is seeking a current renunciation or a finding of a prior relinquishment. All applicants must produce basic ID documents and proof of a second citizenship and of a residence outside the United States. Relinquishment applications require additional evidence of the prior expatriating act.
The centralized approach is intended to achieve consistency in the review and adjudication of applications and to achieve efficiency in appointment scheduling. Initially, the targeted level of efficiency did not materialize, but the situation is improving. The initial intake and review may take more than 60 days before an appointment date is assigned, which may be several months after the review. The applicant can designate one or two preferred locations for the appointment or select the first available appointment anywhere. As of the time of writing this article (late August 2016), all 2016 appointments have been assigned, and all locations are already scheduling appointments into 2017…..”……..
http://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/us-citizenship-renunciation-procedures-95417/
Caveat: This is NOT meant as an endorsement of the authors of that extract above.