Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
Disclosure, I do support folks performing a “current relinquishing act” to go ahead and promptly getting a CLN. In regards to retroactive CLNs……that requires much thought dependent on many factors based on how badly you can get screwed.
@George
“@JapanT, “Showing a non US passport with a US PoB without a CLN”
If you are outside the USA, showing anything with US indica is a personal security threat to oneself and family BOTH pre/post FATCA.
FATCA flies in the face of all prudent advice given when “residing abroad.””
True. That thought is always in the back of my mind and is a very frustrating part of all this. It is bad, bad, bad from any angle, no matter how you slice it, bad for any with US indica living overseas. We MUST present ourselves to the world, for all to see, that we have a connection to the US and this is where we live, where we and our spouses work, our children go to school, everything.
The fact that so few people have a clue about personal safety and the role keeping our private info private has in it Is appalling.
I think you also have missed my point. If you want to open a bank account in another country, in which you are a citizen, you would present your national identity card, not your passport. Again, you are a citizen of your new country. Your former identity as a citizen of the US is simply to be forgotten. You walk away, no one cares. Neither should you.
Anyone, fault my logic. Why bother renouncing or relinquishing. It is a basic human right to leave a country. When the US extorts 2350 dollars from you to leave “formally” it is your right to simply walk away.
Who presents a passport to open a bank account? You present your national identity card of country X and do not mention your former citizenship.
Who can fault this logic? Am I missing something?
Just holding a US passport is a risk abroad. And not only from terrorists, criminals, or the US government (same thing, really), but from foreign governments, as well. The first time I visited Italy, I presented my passport to the immigration officer, he gave a tremendous look and grunt of disgust, stamped it without even looking at the contents, and literally tossed it on the floor next to my feet without speaking a word to me and refusing to make eye contact. I had done nothing except advance in line and smile in greeting.
I have been lectured about politics of the Bush administration in Asia when showing my passport, I have had racists Asian immigration officials in Canada question me rudely for hours, for sport, upon seeing US passport in my hand. I could go on and on for hours
Privacy is gone in the US. Now they try to extend this situation to us living abroad. that is why I say, just walk away. If you make a simple mistake filling out all these forms, you commit a felony, If you don’t fill out all these forms you commit a felony. Who wants to be a citizen of a country like that? Just leave. It is a basic human right to expatriate. If the US makes it too expensive or difficult to leave on their terms, leave on your own. Just leave. Live your new life in your new country. Cause the US no problems or harm, and they will forget about you. They really don’t care about you, anyway.
Why is everyone so preoccupied with this business of forms and fees and procedures?
Larry,
I live in Japan. I do not look like them. I am asked all sorts of things that JNs are usually not asked. My wife is Japanese. She now carries my surname which is not even written in the same writting system as her maiden name. She, Japanese, now has a much greater burden proving she is Japanese just because she married a gaijin, and this was before FATCA.
I am stopped on the street by the police and made to show my papers. That will not change once I have JN. What will change is I can tell the police to go to hell once I am a JN and not be arrested for breaking immigration law. Arrested as a JN, but not as a gaijin.
Larry, know any “hafus”, half people as half Japanese and half anything else are called here? I know loads, most are the offspring of friends of mine. They are Japanese through and through but because they look a bit different, a lot less so than I do, they must undergo a lot more scurtiny than their 100% racially Japanese parent and friends do.
Even without FATCA I have had to provide extra proof of ID and even allow employers, banks, the PO even video rental shops back in the day to photo copy my gaijin card, in violation of Japanese law.
I do not know what the situation in other countries is, but one CAN NOT gain Japanese citizenship and have all one’s troubles simply disappear. Perhaps if I underwent massive cosmetic surgery and extensive language classes. As long as I look foreign, I am and forever will be under suspicion. Add FATCA into this and I can count on always being made to prove I am no longer a USC that threatens their bottom line with extra reporting requirements and fines from a foreign land.
Your logic is sound but we do not live in a logical world.
Larry,
I feel this is really too simple a response. If you live in the UK you really cannot open a British registered bank account … and many people are losing their promotions if not their jobs. I know one British chap – who has no association with the USA – whose mortgage was foreclosed because the deed had originally been signed by his EX-wife … because she was American born.
Things I fear are NOT simple.
I feel such relief knowing that I have renounced – and finished all the various tax/exit forms. I AM FREE. That FREEDOM was worth the extortionate cost. I realise that there must be many who simply cannot entertain the possibility of the expense. My heart goes out to them. The confidence of their future must surely be clouded.
@larry
The UK doesn’t have an identity card, banks want a passport or a driver’s licence.
Switzerland wants a passport and for you to sign “I am not a US person” under the penalty of perjury.
Many banks now are now afraid of the threat of a 30% withold and are asking more pertinent questions.
@Larry
Please know that the FIRST question now on ALL British registered banks’ application forms FOR ANY FISCAL SERVICE is: ‘Are you responsible for paying taxes anywhere outside of the UK?’. To my mind it translates: ‘Are you a citizen of either the USA or Eritrea?’
If you tick ‘yes’ … Your application is immediately terminated.
Enough said, Larry.
I suppose you could lie – If you felt comfortable with that … but then the onus … and any ultimate charges would – understandably – be entirely on your back/head.
I fear I am not someone who is comfortable with that …
Be it on other heads if they feel that it is absolutely necessary.
To each their own.
@Larry, firstly you’re assuming everyone has a national ID card. Well, the UK doesn’t for one – in fact they’re vehemently opposed to the very idea. A UK citizen wouldn’t need a passport (I don’t think – but then again post FATCA maybe you do), but even so if you have any US indica as laid down in the IGA and you don’t reveal it then you risk your account being reported to the IRS and the funds being frozen if the bank feels narky enough about it. Anyone who isn’t a UK citizen would most likely have to present their passport to open a bank account there and if it has a US birthplace then you’re into FATCA territory.
If you’re not a citizen of Switzerland, again you need your passport to open a bank account and they would definitely freeze any accounts if you haven’t told them of any US indica as you should as well as reporting it to the IRS. It’s the first question asked these days.
Given FATCA and the increased pressure from the EU regarding tax avoidance/evasion I doubt anyone who’s an EU national can open an account in another EU country with just their ID card – it simply wouldn’t be enough for the banks. They’d want to see your passport as well.
As for the King of Thailand do you know for a fact that he ISN’T paying US tax as he should? Remember Boris Johnson got done because he made the mistake of not giving up his US citizenship when he said he would.
Obviously if your passport doesn’t have a US birthplace it’s a different kettle of fish as we’ve said before here. Depending on your personal circumstances then yes it is possible to just walk away. That works for some people, but others still want the assurance that having a CLN can give them and knowing that they’ve exited the US tax system cleanly.
Larry,
I just read your post of the difficulties you have had with immigration. You are making my point. Do you think that simply having a passport form another nation erases your Americaness? Do you think that it is entirely out of the realm of probability that the same people you have dealt with would see you PoB and do the same or, if PoB is not on your new passport, detect in your accent and body language where you may have come from? How about banks? Insurance companies? Employers?
Most people don’t just throw away 2000 plus dollars. The fact that so many are spending this amount to get free and clear should tell you that your logic is not fitting the circumstance. Hopefully, the responses to your question, a very good question too I might add, will give you a glimpse of why we can not simply walk away.
The IRS has repeatedly said that they seek compliance. Ponder that and you may come to the conclusion that many here, certainly myself, that they ain’t after the money. Once you realize that, you will also realize that not being among the rich offers you no protection whatsoever. They want YOU to comply. And you WILL, or you will not have a bank account, nor an insurance account, nor a retirement fund, nor acces to your own money- eventually.
Sure, there are specific country exceptions, like Japan, where issues of race can come up against you. If you are white in Asia you may have all kinds of troubles. If you are Chinese, not so much. But increasingly if you are white in the US the problems are even worse. Especially out on the street. Who needs that?
If you are locked into Japan and can get Japanese citizenship, why not? As you say, you are no worse off for it than not having it. But living there is your choice.
sure, I don’t mean to say there is no value in obtaining a formal certificate, I am just making a case that there is another option for people who don’t want to or who object to having to be made to go through this process and pay these outrageous fees.
As for England, my sense is it is a corrupt vassal state of the US with little to nothing in the way of civil rights, and so I am not surprised about your problems.
Good luck to you.
Does the drivers license show your place of birth?
Switzerland, who can afford to live there (ha ha) except refugees and millionaires?
Perhaps you have chosen to live in a country that is even more repressive than the one you have left. That is your choice.
My option has worked well for me where I live, I think it may work for others but not everyone.
Larry, at one time I thought Canada was high up there in the way of rights and liberties, but I was wrong. Don’t know what country you live in, but if you have a US birthplace, good luck to you – you will need it.
This seems to be a different point than what you started with, nit that that is a problem, this is an ongoing discussion. First, it ain’t easy turning Japanese. Back when I was a college student here and used the lacal language almost exclusively, I was much closer to meeting the language requirement than I am now with almost twenty years here teaching English.
Then there is the fee, which at my present income after losing an important position is more than a month’s pay.
Then I have to back file tax returns and FBARs as I had a jount account with my wife to get my CLN. I have neither the time nor money to do so but if I do not, I am at risk of losing my banks accounts and thus any way to receive money from any source.
As others have pointed out, not every nation has a national ID card. The only ID that surfices then is a passport, which may lead to them knowing your place of origin and then the gug is up.
As pointed out by others, some may be able to just use their second passport and walk away, many can not.
Larry et al, I think the lesson here is that every single case is unique. Canada is different than Britain, Switzerland and Japan. The majority of accidental Americans in Canada are doing what you suggested-simply ignoring the excited states . But more than a few, for vastly different reasons, have to go through the relinquish/ renounce process and a few even have an exit tax to pay. But as you say the majority (in Canada) need not do anything and can move on.
@Larry, my Swiss driver’s license gives my nationality as US – eek! Must change that. Haven’t been an American for 3 years now.
A quarter of Switzerland’s population made up of foreigners, very few of whom are millions or refugees – just normal people doing normal jobs, the same as in any other country.
As has been said before if you have no US birthplace and no SSN then yes, it’s feasibly possible to just walk away. People have done it and others will do in the future. But if you’ve got a US birthplace sooner or later it will catch up with you. As we don’t know which country you come from we can’t guage your situation and how much risk you’re running. But if you’re happy to take the risk that’s up to you.
“But as you say the majority (in Canada) need not do anything and can move on.”
And when the banks start asking for birthplace? Lie?
And when the banks start asking for proof of birthplace? Of course, it won’t get to the point where we have to PROVE our birthplace. Right?
If you are locked into Japan and can get Japanese citizenship, why not? As you say, you are no worse off for it than not having it. But living there is your choice.
Yes, living here is my choice. Giving up US citizenship for Japanese citizenship is NOT by choice.
@WhiteKat
Despite our earlier tiff, I am finding that I agree with you a lot.
I think you misread my post then; I have had no difficulties with immigration whatsoever in the country of my new citizenship. I had problems when I used to travel with a US passport, which was in the past. Nobody hassles me any more when I travel with my new non-US passport and I have no problems doing anything here in my new country with my ID card or drivers license. Nobody knows I used to be a US citizen, nobody in the US gov cares about me or where I am because I am not wealthy..
There is a danger in making an error with complicated forms under risk of prosecution, too. There is a moral risk in paying 2.000 dollars under force for something (the right of expatriation) that is a basic constitutional right and human right. And yes, there is a risk in walking away..It is a balance of risks, is it not? I am not saying walking is for everybody or even recommending it, If you think a certificate of expatriation makes you safer from .gov and it helps you sleep at night, that’s cool.
I am just asking why walking away it not discussed more as an option for those to whom it makes sense.
@JapanT, 🙂
@Larry
I think you are really making this too easy. The Kind of Thailand has already relinquished his american citizenship when he serves in the government ( or the army) of another country. And as far as I know- banks in Europe at least ask for your passport if you want to open an account or get a mortgage. And they are not giving those to US “persons” unless they see a CLN or perhaps a W9. They really grovel to find US indicia to cover their asses. I know of various people who are not american but have a condo in Florida or spent a half year in America for some sort of training/education, and these people cannot get a bank account here! When somebody dies and there is an inheritance, the whole family is under extreme scrutiny for US indicia. This isn’t something anybody can really hide from, unless you live in Canada perhaps with a government who will perhaps semi-protect you.